Not sure if this adds anything valuable to the discussion, but I also use 'last used style' on purpose, and I'm also among those who think that if we made it 'this tool's own style' for each tool, it would drive people mad to have to set it each time they draw something - esp. if they do not know yet that this can be changed in the preferences.
What I could imagine, as a solution to our frequent 'objects are invisible' issue (which is the one that you must be referring to, Brynn, because I can't remember people asking for setting a fixed style for a tool repeatedly), would perhaps be something like a small warning triangle or message, that is visible in the status line, when you would draw an object that wouldn't be visible at all, and that gives the reason. Not sure if that would be too much visibility, but it would provide a solution to the actual issue.
Maren
Am 06.06.2017 um 20:35 schrieb brynn:
Setting the default to fixed values for each tool has a high cost to usability for all users.
No, it doesn't affect anyone except people installing Inkscape for the first time. Everyone else's preference file keeps them with all the same prefs they've always had. It wouldn't affect existing users at all!
Having to reset colour over and over is a workflow bottleneck that no user should have to deal with, and may drive new users off without asking any questions.
No, not at all. People have to reset color over and over again ALREADY! I know some people have posted that they use the last used style on purpose. But I think it's probably a small percentage. Personally, I've never wanted the next object I draw with a tool to have the style of the last object.
But either way, people have to reset the color. Whether it the tool's own color, or it's the color of the last object, the color has to be reset, the vast majority of the time.
Users should not have to learn something twice in inkscape just to prevent new user questions.
Huh??
Thanks, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2017 9:42 AM To: Brynn Cc: Olof Bjarnason ; inkscape-devel ; Martin Owens ; J. F. Lemaire Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2
Everyone seems to be so resistant to the idea of changing all the tools to "own style" for when a first time user opens Inkscape.
I don't understand why.
Because the questions you are seeing asked by new users are caused by a number of factors that relate to how colour and transparency are chosen and used in inkscape. In this thread we are considering all the factors before deciding what to do so we can come up with the best solution, and it's not clear that what you have proposed is the best solution. But we agree that the way it works now is confusing, not only to new users, but seasoned inkscape veterans as well.
But it won't solve the problem I've explained about. It might reduce them, but I doubt by much (if at all).
Setting the default to fixed values for each tool has a high cost to usability for all users. Having to reset colour over and over is a workflow bottleneck that no user should have to deal with, and may drive new users off without asking any questions. The problems those users are having can be solved with a unified solution that does not require a "for new users only" approach. Users should not have to learn something twice in inkscape just to prevent new user questions. Questions are a natural part of the learning process. It's more of a concern that the answer to the user question be a satisfying one that is easy to remember and applies in a consistent way to the rest of inkscape's ux. changing a default value to prevent questions is at best a bandaid for one particular user problem. In UX you want to treat the cause of the disease, not merely make one of the symptoms go away.
Patience is needed, as it's not a simple problem.
-C
And I don't understand why everyone seems so resistant.
Just to repeat myself. This would ONLY affect first time users. It's not taking away anything from existing users. And it would completely prevent these messages that we have to answer.
Can someone explain the resistance?
It would be an adventure.....but if someone would tell me how, I'll make the changes myself. (Although they'd have to explain in so much detail, they probably could do it themselves in that much time....)
Thanks,
brynn
-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2017 2:12 PM To: brynn Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; J. F. Lemaire ; Martin Owens ; Olof Bjarnason Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2
Hi brynn. I think maybe we were confused about what you wanted. Sorry we guessed wrong. On the plus side, it opened up discussion of the tools, and how styles are used/reused, and it seems no one likes how it currently is very much - Which is why I'm making mockups of how it could work. I'll try and do a video showing the steps for each option.
It's taking a lot of thought, and consideration of different workflows, because the tools and how they function differ, so coming up with a unified solution that makes everyone happy will take a bit of time.
Can you advise in particular the workflow you are using - I think we would benefit from an example or two. I'll try to get in touch with you on irc this week to discuss it so we properly address your problem.
Thanks for your patience! -C
On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 6:45 AM, brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote: Hi Everyone, Sorry to have made that post just before I logged off for a day and a half. Aside from being a little afraid of what the response might be, I honestly didn't expect much response!
Also honestly, I was totally lost with most of the discussion. Andsome of it, I can't even make a connection to what I asked. It's almost like my comment about holding onto something for 10 years, prompted everyone else to comment what they've been holding onto for years. But I don't think it ever came back around to my question.
Moving the tool style indicator, or the selected object indicator, orwhen Fill and Stroke is called up, or setting style before/after, etc., (if I followed it all)..... Yikes, I'm totally lost!
Changing whether we can set the style before or after drawing theobject won't solve the problem I'm having. Not unless you somehow make it impossible to draw first and choose style second. And then you'll have complaints from all the "old" users who have it in their workflow to draw first, style second.
I'll try to keep up with whatever mockups you come up with, and offercomments.
But if I can just reiterate my original request (which doesn'trequire a ui change afaik). Please, can we make all the tools set for "This tool's own style" as the default? I don't mean take away "Last Used Style" as an option (well, I was joking when I mentioned it). I just mean, for the default document (which is what newbies use 99% of the time) can it start with everything set for "...Own Style"?
It would not require current users, who might be using "last style",to go through and change everything, because their prefs file will keep them using whatever they already use. This would ONLY affect newbies, and make them less confused (and those of us who answer support requests, less bothered!)
Not that I know much about programming. But what little I understandabout how Inkscape works, it seems like it wouldn't take much time to make this change. Wouldn't it be just changing one thing, for each tool, in the default doc? Or maybe it's a change in the original prefs file?
Since I didn't hear any objections - not to what I asked anyway, Iguess I will make the feature request.
Thanks again, brynn
PS - (Re-titled this, in case of comments on my original request.)
-----Original Message----- From: Martin Owens Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 7:51 AM To: Olof Bjarnason ; C R Cc: J. F. Lemaire ; inkscape-devel Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style
On Fri, 2017-06-02 at 11:01 +0200, Olof Bjarnason wrote:
Just trying to make this happen, and it won't happen if you do not get buy in from some developer that has the time and energy to make this happen...
This kind of UX is right in my wheelhouse. Please add me as principle developer to work on the design. To which we can then test functionally with users.
Best regards, Martin Owens
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