Hey folks. Can we clarify which tools we are talking about?

Freehand Drawing Tool - (always draws the default line for me in trunk) Bezier Tool - (Always draws the default line for me in trunk) Shape tools (elipse, rectangle, polygon) - Uses last used style

For most of the tools it makes sense to me to share the fill and stroke - I don't want to have to reset it after every line, as I currently do with the line tools.

However, I do think Inkscape should SHOW the last used fill and stroke options when nothing is selected, so the user knows what the fill and stroke colour will be. The shape tools let you select fill and stroke before drawing the new shape in the usual way (click a swatch, or shift-click for stroke), but the boxes do not update, and only show after a new object is drawn. This is contradictory to how most graphics applications handle foreground and background colour, and even after 7 years of using inkscape on a daily basis, it still trips me up.

What I propose:

1. If an object is selected, show fill/stroke colour (and style settings - already how it is) 2. If no object is selected, show last used fill and stroke colour (the stroke and fill colour of the last drawn shape (NOT the last selected shape)) 3. Fix the line tools so that they also use the last drawn stroke colour/style as the shape tools do now. 4. Update last-used fill/stroke colours to new colours when they are selected by the user.

This would be far better than it currently is, and solve the "what colour is my shape/line going to be" mystery.

My 2p. -C

On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:25 AM, Bryan Hoyt <bryan@...2310...> wrote:

Yep, setting fill/stroke/style before creating an object would be awesome.

On 1 June 2017 at 16:22, Miguel Lopez <reptillia39@...3425...> wrote:

...

-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] last used style Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 05:57:11 +0200 From: Olof Bjarnason <olof.bjarnason@...400...> <olof.bjarnason@...400...> To: Miguel Lopez <reptillia39@...3425...> <reptillia39@...3425...>

+100.

Den 1 juni 2017 05:33 skrev "Miguel Lopez" <reptillia39@...3425...>:

...

I only use last used style as a workaround to not being able to set up fill/stroke before I create a object akin to Illustrator. You know what would save time? Being able to set up fill/stroke before a creation of a object, and at any time akin to Illustrator. In Illustrator, you go change the fill, and stroke, and objects will be created with those before you even make a object.

On 5/31/2017 11:24 PM, brynn wrote:

...

Hi Friends, I've been trying to get my nerve up to ask about this, since I first used Inkscape, 10 years ago. So here goes.

   Can anyone give me a good reason for having all the tools

styles set, by default, to last used style?

   In 10 years, I have never met, seen, or heard of anyone who

needs this feature; while we have to answer this same general problem for newbies over and over and over again. Countless times I've answered these messages. I'll bet I don't even need to give examples, do I?

   I would guess it's the single biggest stumbling block for

newbies. It certainly must be the single most asked question by newbies. At least in forums, and probably LP Answers.

   I can imagine rare scenarios, where someone might actually use

this feature. But if I want an object the exact same style as the one before, I simply duplicate (or copy/paste, or paste style). So it's a mystery to me why last used style should be the default behavior, when we have all these other perfectly suitable features, which don't cause newbies (and those who help them) so many headaches.

   I understand if we might not want to throw it out the window

((although that's what I would do with it, haha)). But is there any chance we could at least not have it to be the default behavior?

   When we first download and open Inkscape for the first time,

all the tools have a characteristic style. If I recall, it's a pink rectangle, light blue circle, yellow star, and green spiral, with darker tones for the strokes, and all partially transparent. And for Pencil and Pen, I guess it's the black stroke.

   Could we just keep those styles, but set all the tools for

"This tool's own style" instead of "Last used style"? And could we have this the default behavior for when newbies first install Inkscape?

   Oh, it would save us SO, so much time, those of us who answer

newbie questions, day in and day out. I'd be so happy to write up a bug/feature request report for this, if there isn't some serious objection.

Thanks for listening, brynn

---

---

...

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---

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Yes, I use it to solve my problems (regarding the default styling). It still does not solve the problem that is causing confusion though: That when nothing is selected, no fill or stroke colour is shown so the user must draw the object first, then change the colour.

On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 9:24 AM, Jabier Arraiza <jabier.arraiza@...2893...> wrote:

CR: ¿You use anytime the tools preferrences section about default styling? Think it solve your problems.

Cheers, Jabier.

On Thu, 2017-06-01 at 09:07 +0100, C R wrote:

...

Hey folks. Can we clarify which tools we are talking about?

Freehand Drawing Tool - (always draws the default line for me in trunk) Bezier Tool - (Always draws the default line for me in trunk) Shape tools (elipse, rectangle, polygon) - Uses last used style

For most of the tools it makes sense to me to share the fill and stroke - I don't want to have to reset it after every line, as I currently do with the line tools.

However, I do think Inkscape should SHOW the last used fill and stroke options when nothing is selected, so the user knows what the fill and stroke colour will be. The shape tools let you select fill and stroke before drawing the new shape in the usual way (click a swatch, or shift-click for stroke), but the boxes do not update, and only show after a new object is drawn. This is contradictory to how most graphics applications handle foreground and background colour, and even after 7 years of using inkscape on a daily basis, it still trips me up.

What I propose:

1. If an object is selected, show fill/stroke colour (and style

settings - already how it is) 2. If no object is selected, show last used fill and stroke colour (the stroke and fill colour of the last drawn shape (NOT the last selected shape)) 3. Fix the line tools so that they also use the last drawn stroke colour/style as the shape tools do now. 4. Update last-used fill/stroke colours to new colours when they are selected by the user.

This would be far better than it currently is, and solve the "what colour is my shape/line going to be" mystery.

My 2p. -C

On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:25 AM, Bryan Hoyt <bryan@...2310...> wrote:

...

Yep, setting fill/stroke/style before creating an object would be awesome.

On 1 June 2017 at 16:22, Miguel Lopez <reptillia39@...3425...> wrote:

...

-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] last used style Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 05:57:11 +0200 From: Olof Bjarnason <olof.bjarnason@...400...> <olof.bjarnason@...400...> To: Miguel Lopez <reptillia39@...3425...> <reptillia39@...3425...>

+100.

Den 1 juni 2017 05:33 skrev "Miguel Lopez" <reptillia39@...3425...> :

...

I only use last used style as a workaround to not being able to set up fill/stroke before I create a object akin to Illustrator. You know what would save time? Being able to set up fill/stroke before a creation of a object, and at any time akin to Illustrator. In Illustrator, you go change the fill, and stroke, and objects will be created with those before you even make a object.

On 5/31/2017 11:24 PM, brynn wrote:

...

Hi Friends, I've been trying to get my nerve up to ask about this, since I first used Inkscape, 10 years ago. So here goes.

   Can anyone give me a good reason for having all the

tools styles set, by default, to last used style?

   In 10 years, I have never met, seen, or heard of

anyone who needs this feature; while we have to answer this same general problem for newbies over and over and over again. Countless times I've answered these messages. I'll bet I don't even need to give examples, do I?

   I would guess it's the single biggest stumbling block

for newbies. It certainly must be the single most asked question by newbies. At least in forums, and probably LP Answers.

   I can imagine rare scenarios, where someone might

actually use this feature. But if I want an object the exact same style as the one before, I simply duplicate (or copy/paste, or paste style). So it's a mystery to me why last used style should be the default behavior, when we have all these other perfectly suitable features, which don't cause newbies (and those who help them) so many headaches.

   I understand if we might not want to throw it out the

window ((although that's what I would do with it, haha)). But is there any chance we could at least not have it to be the default behavior?

   When we first download and open Inkscape for the first

time, all the tools have a characteristic style. If I recall, it's a pink rectangle, light blue circle, yellow star, and green spiral, with darker tones for the strokes, and all partially transparent. And for Pencil and Pen, I guess it's the black stroke.

   Could we just keep those styles, but set all the tools

for "This tool's own style" instead of "Last used style"? And could we have this the default behavior for when newbies first install Inkscape?

   Oh, it would save us SO, so much time, those of us who

answer newbie questions, day in and day out. I'd be so happy to write up a bug/feature request report for this, if there isn't some serious objection.

Thanks for listening, brynn

---

---

...

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Yes, exactly. And the "current style" is always the last-used style. Agree 100%

-C

On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 9:40 AM, Olof Bjarnason <olof.bjarnason@...400...> wrote:

For me, the expected behaviour of a drawing program (pixels, cad or vector) is to have a "current style" (color in pixel case, possibly divided into fg/bg color), or line style (in CAD case) or stroke- and fill style (vector program).

And that goes for any tool which uses style (pen, pencil, rectangle, ellipse, ...) to create new entities in the drawing.

Anything that differs from that behaviour - updating the current "pen" in lack of a better general word - is deviating from what I expect, and therefore an annoyance.

My 2 cc,

Mvh

/Olof

Är du systemutvecklare? Spana in https://cilamp.se

On 1 June 2017 at 10:07, C R <cajhne@...400...> wrote:

...

Hey folks. Can we clarify which tools we are talking about?

Freehand Drawing Tool - (always draws the default line for me in trunk) Bezier Tool - (Always draws the default line for me in trunk) Shape tools (elipse, rectangle, polygon) - Uses last used style

For most of the tools it makes sense to me to share the fill and stroke - I don't want to have to reset it after every line, as I currently do with the line tools.

However, I do think Inkscape should SHOW the last used fill and stroke options when nothing is selected, so the user knows what the fill and stroke colour will be. The shape tools let you select fill and stroke before drawing the new shape in the usual way (click a swatch, or shift-click for stroke), but the boxes do not update, and only show after a new object is drawn. This is contradictory to how most graphics applications handle foreground and background colour, and even after 7 years of using inkscape on a daily basis, it still trips me up.

What I propose:

1. If an object is selected, show fill/stroke colour (and style settings

• already how it is)

2. If no object is selected, show last used fill and stroke colour (the

stroke and fill colour of the last drawn shape (NOT the last selected shape)) 3. Fix the line tools so that they also use the last drawn stroke colour/style as the shape tools do now. 4. Update last-used fill/stroke colours to new colours when they are selected by the user.

This would be far better than it currently is, and solve the "what colour is my shape/line going to be" mystery.

My 2p. -C

On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:25 AM, Bryan Hoyt <bryan@...2310...> wrote:

...

Yep, setting fill/stroke/style before creating an object would be awesome.

On 1 June 2017 at 16:22, Miguel Lopez <reptillia39@...3425...> wrote:

...

-------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] last used style Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 05:57:11 +0200 From: Olof Bjarnason <olof.bjarnason@...400...> <olof.bjarnason@...400...> To: Miguel Lopez <reptillia39@...3425...> <reptillia39@...3425...>

+100.

Den 1 juni 2017 05:33 skrev "Miguel Lopez" <reptillia39@...3425...>:

...

I only use last used style as a workaround to not being able to set up fill/stroke before I create a object akin to Illustrator. You know what would save time? Being able to set up fill/stroke before a creation of a object, and at any time akin to Illustrator. In Illustrator, you go change the fill, and stroke, and objects will be created with those before you even make a object.

On 5/31/2017 11:24 PM, brynn wrote:

...

Hi Friends, I've been trying to get my nerve up to ask about this, since I first used Inkscape, 10 years ago. So here goes.

   Can anyone give me a good reason for having all the tools

styles set, by default, to last used style?

   In 10 years, I have never met, seen, or heard of anyone who

needs this feature; while we have to answer this same general problem for newbies over and over and over again. Countless times I've answered these messages. I'll bet I don't even need to give

examples,

...

do I?

   I would guess it's the single biggest stumbling block for

newbies. It certainly must be the single most asked question by newbies. At least in forums, and probably LP Answers.

   I can imagine rare scenarios, where someone might actually use

this feature. But if I want an object the exact same style as the

one

...

before, I simply duplicate (or copy/paste, or paste style). So it's

a

...

mystery to me why last used style should be the default behavior,

when

...

we have all these other perfectly suitable features, which don't

cause

...

newbies (and those who help them) so many headaches.

   I understand if we might not want to throw it out the window

((although that's what I would do with it, haha)). But is there any chance we could at least not have it to be the default behavior?

   When we first download and open Inkscape for the first time,

all the tools have a characteristic style. If I recall, it's a pink rectangle, light blue circle, yellow star, and green spiral, with darker tones for the strokes, and all partially transparent. And for Pencil and Pen, I guess it's the black stroke.

   Could we just keep those styles, but set all the tools for

"This tool's own style" instead of "Last used style"? And could we have this the default behavior for when newbies first install

Inkscape?

...

   Oh, it would save us SO, so much time, those of us who answer

newbie questions, day in and day out. I'd be so happy to write up a bug/feature request report for this, if there isn't some serious objection.

Thanks for listening, brynn

---

---

...

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Good explanation and +1 for the proposals.

I too rely on the last used style.

What probably confuses newbies is not the last used style mechanism, but not being able to see (and easily change) it whilst having the _common_ habit of setting the style _before_ drawing so to immediately see how the object will be while drawing it. I've always found the "first draw (or write) then set the style" workflow a bit contorted but the only choice was to accept it and get used to (and that's not the only case of Inkscape's oddness).

I find the each-tool-fixed-style useful only for some tools like text and calligraphy, and I assume that this (useful) option has been extended indiscriminately to all tools singularly but this was probably an oversight or a levity because there's no real reason to make differences between geometrical tools. This can be easily "fixed" setting all the geometrical tools to use the last used style, but this still remains an oddity that may confuse first users.

Luca

-- View this message in context: http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/last-used-style-tp4979866p4979882.html Sent from the Inkscape - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Also there is a need to only one last style used for all tools instead one for each tool.

On Thu, 2017-06-01 at 10:34 +0100, C R wrote:

Looks like we generally agree that the workflow should be changed to enable setting of the stroke visibly before drawing when no objects are selected.

To implement this: Fill and Stroke show current/last used style when no objects are selected rather than nothing. The user should then be able to change this current/last-used style.

-C

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On Thu, 2017-06-01 at 10:34 +0100, C R wrote:

Looks like we generally agree that the workflow should be changed to enable setting of the stroke visibly before drawing when no objects are selected.

To implement this: Fill and Stroke show current/last used style when no objects are selected rather than nothing. The user should then be able to change this current/last-used style.

I'm confused. The fill/stroke that will be used are shown at the right of the toolbar for all drawing tools except text. If no item is selected then clicking on the palette sets the fill and shift-clicking sets the stroke for the next drawn object (for tools using "last-used style"). Clicking on the fill/stroke widget at the right of the toolbar will open a dialog where you can choose between "last used style" and "this tools own style" as well as set "this tools own style".

Tav

On Thu, 2017-06-01 at 13:36 +0200, J. F. Lemaire wrote:

On 1 June 2017 at 13:12, Tavmjong Bah <tavmjong@...8...> wrote:

...

I'm confused. [...] Clicking on the fill/stroke widget at the right of the toolbar [...]

I'm confused too. What fill/stroke widget at the right of the toolbar?

See attached image. Widget circled in green.

Cheers, JFL

Thanks Brynn,

In all the years I've used inkscape, this part of it has never really made sense to me. I cope with it though, by having pallet objects on the screen I can copy style from, and an bucket object I can set a style to for the next drawn object.

Clicking on the fill/stroke opening preferences isn't good UX, as I don't expect preference there.

The better thing would be to 'select' the default 'object' and enable the Fill and stroke dialog so I could 'set' all the styles directly. (see attached screenshot)

I can confirm also that when training teenagers to use inkscape, (15- 18yo, 2010-2016) you see a mixture of pre-setting and post-setting behaviours. pre-setting behaviours are met with confusion, but post- setting works very well.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

On Thu, 2017-06-01 at 13:12 +0200, Tavmjong Bah wrote:

On Thu, 2017-06-01 at 10:34 +0100, C R wrote:

...

Looks like we generally agree that the workflow should be changed to enable setting of the stroke visibly before drawing when no objects are selected.

To implement this: Fill and Stroke show current/last used style when no objects are selected rather than nothing. The user should then be able to change this current/last-used style.

I'm confused. The fill/stroke that will be used are shown at the right of the toolbar for all drawing tools except text. If no item is selected then clicking on the palette sets the fill and shift- clicking sets the stroke for the next drawn object (for tools using "last-used style"). Clicking on the fill/stroke widget at the right of the toolbar will open a dialog where you can choose between "last used style" and "this tools own style" as well as set "this tools own style".

Tav

---

---

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So after playing a bit more with the upper-right colour/stroke widget, there are these UX issues with it:

1. It's not always visible, so the user is not used to seeing it unless they are already looking for it. 2. It only shows the current/last-used values when the tool is active, which forces the user to pick a tool first 3. It's so far removed from all the rest of the tool options that users are unlikely to associate it with the tool options (placing it alongside the tool options (maybe as the first thing in the tool options would solve this issue) 4. It lacks the opacity spin buttons that the lower left colour widget has.

I can see two options for UX improvement: 1. Move the colour widget to the right-most side of the tool options for improved visibility (has the disadvantage of scooting all the other tool options to the left) 2. Remove it entirely, and have the Lower Left widget replace it, since they both show the same thing unless something else is highlighted

#2 is my preference, though I could see arguments for #1 as well.

If #2, we should think about what it displays as "current style" which is effectively the last used style. The behaviour can be summarised as the following: a. If the user has nothing selected, it shows the current style a1. If the user draws something new while nothing is selected, the style is the current style (the one shown) b. If the user has an object selected, it shows the style of the selected object b1. If the user draws something new while an object is selected the style will match the selected object (for non-group objects) Drawing a new object in this way changes the current style, as you'd expect.

The effect is that objects drawn *always* match the colours of the lower left widget.

The difficulty here is how to handle creation of new objects when multiple objects or a group of objects is selected that have different strokes/fills/opacity.

In these cases, I think the lower left widget could stay the same as it currently is (with "different") instead of a numerical value. I think it would be an edge-case for the user to start drawing with multiple different object selected, or a group object selected, but since drawing deselects whatever is selected immediately, I think switching back to the current style would be both intuitive and the most useful thing to do in this circumstance.

#2 has the advantage that the user can select what they want to style the new object after, without having to rely on copy/paste style - this is quite useful and will save a lot of clicking around.

-C

On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 6:39 PM, C R <cajhne@...400...> wrote:

Heh, I've noticed the top-right thingy, but always thought it was just a duplicate of the fill/stroke indicators in the lower-left.

Even now, it seems a bit redundant... I mean there are three different places to set colour/stroke. I think Martin is correct... surely we could do a bit better than this. :)

I don't understand workflows that need the values locked to one particular value. I mean, if you're using the style so much that you need it to revert to a default every time you switch tools, why would using the last style trip you up?

Thanks everyone, for sharing your workflows and ideas. I'm sure collectively we can come up with something a bit better. -C

On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:47 PM, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:

...

Thanks Brynn,

In all the years I've used inkscape, this part of it has never really made sense to me. I cope with it though, by having pallet objects on the screen I can copy style from, and an bucket object I can set a style to for the next drawn object.

Clicking on the fill/stroke opening preferences isn't good UX, as I don't expect preference there.

The better thing would be to 'select' the default 'object' and enable the Fill and stroke dialog so I could 'set' all the styles directly. (see attached screenshot)

I can confirm also that when training teenagers to use inkscape, (15- 18yo, 2010-2016) you see a mixture of pre-setting and post-setting behaviours. pre-setting behaviours are met with confusion, but post- setting works very well.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

On Thu, 2017-06-01 at 13:12 +0200, Tavmjong Bah wrote:

...

On Thu, 2017-06-01 at 10:34 +0100, C R wrote:

...

Looks like we generally agree that the workflow should be changed to enable setting of the stroke visibly before drawing when no objects are selected.

To implement this: Fill and Stroke show current/last used style when no objects are selected rather than nothing. The user should then be able to change this current/last-used style.

I'm confused. The fill/stroke that will be used are shown at the right of the toolbar for all drawing tools except text. If no item is selected then clicking on the palette sets the fill and shift- clicking sets the stroke for the next drawn object (for tools using "last-used style"). Clicking on the fill/stroke widget at the right of the toolbar will open a dialog where you can choose between "last used style" and "this tools own style" as well as set "this tools own style".

Tav

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---

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I think hiding the status bar is a UX corner case, as it takes up almost no screen real-estate... though we could move the current status widget to the toolbox automatically if the status bar is hidden.

-C

On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 9:40 AM, J. F. Lemaire <jflemaire@...621...> wrote:

On 2 June 2017 at 10:04, C R <cajhne@...400...> wrote:

...

So after playing a bit more with the upper-right colour/stroke widget,

[...]

...

I can see two options for UX improvement: 2. Remove it entirely, and have the Lower Left widget replace it, since they both show the same thing unless something else is highlighted

I don't think this is a good idea since it means it won't be displayed if the Statusbar is hidden. Anything that affects tools behaviour should be in the Tool Controls Bar in my opinion.

Cheers, JFL -- Jean-François Lemaire

---

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I think this discussion is great!

Could someone (C R?) present a graphical explanation (preferably drawn in Inkscape!) of what changes you suggest, from a UX perspective?

What is the _smallest_ change that would improve situation? What is the _ideal_ change to improve situation?

Just a small nuggest of understanding to add to this discussino: From a purely user mindset, the concept of "current style" and the concept of "the style of the selected entities" is very different. So the UX should indicate this difference clearly. Re-using widgets/UIs is not a good idea, if any of the devs thinks that is "smart".

Maybe two different images for those two?

Just trying to make this happen, and it won't happen if you do not get buy in from some developer that has the time and energy to make this happen...

Mvh

/Olof ----------------- Är du systemutvecklare? Spana in https://cilamp.se

On 2 June 2017 at 10:53, C R <cajhne@...400...> wrote:

I think hiding the status bar is a UX corner case, as it takes up almost no screen real-estate... though we could move the current status widget to the toolbox automatically if the status bar is hidden.

-C

On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 9:40 AM, J. F. Lemaire <jflemaire@...621...> wrote:

...

On 2 June 2017 at 10:04, C R <cajhne@...400...> wrote:

...

So after playing a bit more with the upper-right colour/stroke widget,

[...]

...

I can see two options for UX improvement: 2. Remove it entirely, and have the Lower Left widget replace it, since they both show the same thing unless something else is highlighted

I don't think this is a good idea since it means it won't be displayed if the Statusbar is hidden. Anything that affects tools behaviour should be in the Tool Controls Bar in my opinion.

Cheers, JFL -- Jean-François Lemaire

---

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---

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Could someone (C R?) present a graphical explanation (preferably drawn in Inkscape!) of what changes you suggest, from a UX perspective?

Sure, I'll hack something together this weekend if people are generally happy with the proposed solutions.

What is the _smallest_ change that would improve situation?

It depends on what is considered an improvement, and which ux direction we are going in: 1. Reduction /unification of the number of places the user has to look/remember for setting the current style 2. Separation of current selected object style from the last used object style

What is the _ideal_ change to improve situation?

Again, depends on which ux direction.

Just a small nuggest of understanding to add to this discussino: From a purely user mindset, the concept of "current style" and the concept of "the style of the selected entities" is very different.

Considering how many users completely ignore the top-left last used style for the current tool, I'd say it's probably not as different as one would think. Also, programs like Adobe Illustrator, GIMP, and Krita make use of a unified current style indicator that is also considered user friendly.

So the UX should indicate this difference clearly. Re-using widgets/UIs is not a good idea, if any of the devs thinks that is "smart".

Maybe two different images for those two?

Sure. I'll work on it this weekend.

Just trying to make this happen, and it won't happen if you do not get buy in from some developer that has the time and energy to make this happen...

Definitely appreciate the help!

-C

---

Är du systemutvecklare? Spana in https://cilamp.se

On 2 June 2017 at 10:53, C R <cajhne@...400...> wrote:

...

I think hiding the status bar is a UX corner case, as it takes up almost no screen real-estate... though we could move the current status widget to the toolbox automatically if the status bar is hidden.

-C

On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 9:40 AM, J. F. Lemaire <jflemaire@...621...> wrote:

...

On 2 June 2017 at 10:04, C R <cajhne@...400...> wrote:

...

So after playing a bit more with the upper-right colour/stroke widget,

[...]

...

I can see two options for UX improvement: 2. Remove it entirely, and have the Lower Left widget replace it, since they both show the same thing unless something else is highlighted

I don't think this is a good idea since it means it won't be displayed if the Statusbar is hidden. Anything that affects tools behaviour should be in the Tool Controls Bar in my opinion.

Cheers, JFL -- Jean-François Lemaire

---

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---

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On Fri, 2017-06-02 at 11:13 +0100, C R wrote:

...

Could someone (C R?) present a graphical explanation (preferably drawn in Inkscape!) of what changes you suggest, from a UX perspective?

Sure, I'll hack something together this weekend if people are generally happy with the proposed solutions.

...

What is the _smallest_ change that would improve situation?

It depends on what is considered an improvement, and which ux direction we are going in:

1. Reduction /unification of the number of places the user has to

look/remember for setting the current style 2. Separation of current selected object style from the last used object style

1

...

What is the _ideal_ change to improve situation?

Again, depends on which ux direction.

...

Just a small nuggest of understanding to add to this discussino: From a purely user mindset, the concept of "current style" and the concept of "the style of the selected entities" is very different.

Considering how many users completely ignore the top-left last used style for the current tool, I'd say it's probably not as different as one would think. Also, programs like Adobe Illustrator, GIMP, and Krita make use of a unified current style indicator that is also considered user friendly.

...

So the UX should indicate this difference clearly. Re-using widgets/UIs is not a good idea, if any of the devs thinks that is "smart". Maybe two different images for those two?

Sure. I'll work on it this weekend.

...

Just trying to make this happen, and it won't happen if you do not get buy in from some developer that has the time and energy to make this happen...

Definitely appreciate the help!

-C

...

---

Är du systemutvecklare? Spana in https://cilamp.se

On 2 June 2017 at 10:53, C R <cajhne@...400...> wrote:

...

I think hiding the status bar is a UX corner case, as it takes up almost no screen real-estate... though we could move the current status widget to the toolbox automatically if the status bar is hidden.

-C

On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 9:40 AM, J. F. Lemaire <jflemaire@...3542... e> wrote:

...

On 2 June 2017 at 10:04, C R <cajhne@...400...> wrote:

...

So after playing a bit more with the upper-right colour/stroke widget,

[...]

...

I can see two options for UX improvement: 2. Remove it entirely, and have the Lower Left widget replace it, since they both show the same thing unless something else is highlighted

I don't think this is a good idea since it means it won't be displayed if the Statusbar is hidden. Anything that affects tools behaviour should be in the Tool Controls Bar in my opinion.

Cheers, JFL -- Jean-François Lemaire

---

---

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---

---

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---

---

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Thanks Martin! Will definitely liaise with you on it along with mockups.

On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 2:51 PM, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:

On Fri, 2017-06-02 at 11:01 +0200, Olof Bjarnason wrote:

...

Just trying to make this happen, and it won't happen if you do not get buy in from some developer that has the time and energy to make this happen...

This kind of UX is right in my wheelhouse. Please add me as principle developer to work on the design. To which we can then test functionally with users.

Best regards, Martin Owens

Hi Everyone, Sorry to have made that post just before I logged off for a day and a half. Aside from being a little afraid of what the response might be, I honestly didn't expect much response!

Also honestly, I was totally lost with most of the discussion. And some of it, I can't even make a connection to what I asked. It's almost like my comment about holding onto something for 10 years, prompted everyone else to comment what they've been holding onto for years. But I don't think it ever came back around to my question.

Moving the tool style indicator, or the selected object indicator, or when Fill and Stroke is called up, or setting style before/after, etc., (if I followed it all)..... Yikes, I'm totally lost!

Changing whether we can set the style before or after drawing the object won't solve the problem I'm having. Not unless you somehow make it impossible to draw first and choose style second. And then you'll have complaints from all the "old" users who have it in their workflow to draw first, style second.

I'll try to keep up with whatever mockups you come up with, and offer comments.

But if I can just reiterate my original request (which doesn't require a ui change afaik). Please, can we make all the tools set for "This tool's own style" as the default? I don't mean take away "Last Used Style" as an option (well, I was joking when I mentioned it). I just mean, for the default document (which is what newbies use 99% of the time) can it start with everything set for "...Own Style"?

It would not require current users, who might be using "last style", to go through and change everything, because their prefs file will keep them using whatever they already use. This would ONLY affect newbies, and make them less confused (and those of us who answer support requests, less bothered!)

Not that I know much about programming. But what little I understand about how Inkscape works, it seems like it wouldn't take much time to make this change. Wouldn't it be just changing one thing, for each tool, in the default doc? Or maybe it's a change in the original prefs file?

Since I didn't hear any objections - not to what I asked anyway, I guess I will make the feature request.

Thanks again, brynn

PS - (Re-titled this, in case of comments on my original request.)

-----Original Message----- From: Martin Owens Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 7:51 AM To: Olof Bjarnason ; C R Cc: J. F. Lemaire ; inkscape-devel Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style

On Fri, 2017-06-02 at 11:01 +0200, Olof Bjarnason wrote:

Just trying to make this happen, and it won't happen if you do not get buy in from some developer that has the time and energy to make this happen...

This kind of UX is right in my wheelhouse. Please add me as principle developer to work on the design. To which we can then test functionally with users.

Best regards, Martin Owens

------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel

Hi C R, I'll log on to IRC shortly (don't normally use it).

The workflow is draw first, style second. (Personally I like that routine much better than choosing the style first. So when you're making changes, please make it optional, so that those who prefer the "old" way, can continue without altering their personal routines.)

So draw a rectangle. Yikes, nothing's there. I can see the dotted lines and arrows (i.e. bounding box and selection handles), but my rectangle isn't there.

Why isn't it there? Because the last time you drew a rectangle, eventually you made it completely transparent. Now, every rectangle you draw will be transparent, until you change it. Oh, you changed it to blue? Now every rectangle will be blue, until you change one.

As I said before, it's easily the most asked question, both in forums and LP Answers. And in my opinion, well, a ridiculous feature. Most newbies pick up Inkscape, and they're happily clicking away, not thinking about anything, but marvelling over the awesome program. An hour later, or a day, or a week, and they don't remember that they were playing with either the alpha channel or Opacity slider. And also in my opinion, it's not intuitive that whatever change I make is permanent for the tool.

What's the solution? Explain to everyone how to change the style settings for all their tools. A few years ago, I finally wrote a tutorial. But it doesn't stop the questions from coming. It just make the answer shorter (link to the tutorial).

Offering an option to style first, draw second is fine. But that won't stop the questions coming either. Some Inkscape newbies are computer graphics newbies, and have no idea that they are supposed to choose the color first.

To me, it's counterintuitive. I actually started with GIMP as my first graphics experience. After hours trying to give a fill color to something, I finally had to look up the manual. It may be the industry standard, but it's counterintuitive.

Using Inkscape is so very much like drawing on paper with a pen or pencil. So (shall we say virgin newbies or something?) we don't pick up a crayon or colored pencil, and color in the square before we draw the square. We draw the square first, and color it second.

Anyway, I'm rather shocked that the mailing list crowd doesn't understand what the problem is. I guess it underscores once again how far removed many developers are, from the user community.

Would it be such a hard thing to do, to make the default doc have all the tools set for "own style"?

Thanks again, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2017 2:12 PM To: brynn Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; J. F. Lemaire ; Martin Owens ; Olof Bjarnason Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2

Hi brynn. I think maybe we were confused about what you wanted. Sorry we guessed wrong. On the plus side, it opened up discussion of the tools, and how styles are used/reused, and it seems no one likes how it currently is very much - Which is why I'm making mockups of how it could work. I'll try and do a video showing the steps for each option.

It's taking a lot of thought, and consideration of different workflows, because the tools and how they function differ, so coming up with a unified solution that makes everyone happy will take a bit of time.

Can you advise in particular the workflow you are using - I think we would benefit from an example or two. I'll try to get in touch with you on irc this week to discuss it so we properly address your problem.

Thanks for your patience! -C

On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 6:45 AM, brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:

Hi Everyone, Sorry to have made that post just before I logged off for a day and a half. Aside from being a little afraid of what the response might be, I honestly didn't expect much response!

   Also honestly, I was totally lost with most of the discussion.  And

some of it, I can't even make a connection to what I asked. It's almost like my comment about holding onto something for 10 years, prompted everyone else to comment what they've been holding onto for years. But I don't think it ever came back around to my question.

   Moving the tool style indicator, or the selected object indicator, or

when Fill and Stroke is called up, or setting style before/after, etc., (if I followed it all)..... Yikes, I'm totally lost!

   Changing whether we can set the style before or after drawing the

object won't solve the problem I'm having. Not unless you somehow make it impossible to draw first and choose style second. And then you'll have complaints from all the "old" users who have it in their workflow to draw first, style second.

   I'll try to keep up with whatever mockups you come up with, and offer

comments.

   But if I can just reiterate my original request (which doesn't

require a ui change afaik). Please, can we make all the tools set for "This tool's own style" as the default? I don't mean take away "Last Used Style" as an option (well, I was joking when I mentioned it). I just mean, for the default document (which is what newbies use 99% of the time) can it start with everything set for "...Own Style"?

   It would not require current users, who might be using "last style",

to go through and change everything, because their prefs file will keep them using whatever they already use. This would ONLY affect newbies, and make them less confused (and those of us who answer support requests, less bothered!)

   Not that I know much about programming.  But what little I understand

about how Inkscape works, it seems like it wouldn't take much time to make this change. Wouldn't it be just changing one thing, for each tool, in the default doc? Or maybe it's a change in the original prefs file?

   Since I didn't hear any objections - not to what I asked anyway, I

guess I will make the feature request.

Thanks again, brynn

PS - (Re-titled this, in case of comments on my original request.)

-----Original Message----- From: Martin Owens Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 7:51 AM To: Olof Bjarnason ; C R Cc: J. F. Lemaire ; inkscape-devel Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style

On Fri, 2017-06-02 at 11:01 +0200, Olof Bjarnason wrote:

...

Just trying to make this happen, and it won't happen if you do not get buy in from some developer that has the time and energy to make this happen...

This kind of UX is right in my wheelhouse. Please add me as principle developer to work on the design. To which we can then test functionally with users.

Best regards, Martin Owens

---

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Well again, I'm not proposing getting rid of "last style". All I want is for the default, when a new user opens Inkscape for the first time, to be "own style".

This would ONLY affect newbies. Only!

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: J. F. Lemaire Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2017 7:37 AM To: Inkscape-Devel Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2

On 6 June 2017 at 12:59, brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:

   Why isn't it there?  Because the last time you drew a rectangle,

eventually you made it completely transparent. Now, every rectangle you draw will be transparent, until you change it. Oh, you changed it to blue? Now every rectangle will be blue, until you change one.

For what it's worth, this is actually one of the numerous features of Inkscape that I like. It irks me each time I have to use Illustrator to have tools revert to stupid presets I never asked for. And I'm not a developer.

Cheers, JFL

Oh, by the way, I think I got a little idea: Hybrid Idea of last used style and set style first, then create object.

In here, you can change the style whenever you want, and it'll behave exactly like create first and create object. But, if you don't want to change the style, you can always just create a new object with the last used style.

Thoughts?

On 6/6/2017 11:11 AM, J. F. Lemaire wrote:

On 6 June 2017 at 15:52, brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:

...

Well again, I'm not proposing getting rid of "last style". All I want is for the default, when a new user opens Inkscape for the first time, to be "own style".

I've just checked after running Inkscape with default settings and I notice some tools are set by default to "own style" and others to "last used style". I don't see any reason for this discrepancy and I think all tools should be set to the same behaviour, whatever it is.

Cheers, JFL

I don't understand what you mean. In where?

Thanks, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Miguel Lopez Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2017 9:15 AM To: J. F. Lemaire ; Inkscape-Devel Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2

Oh, by the way, I think I got a little idea: Hybrid Idea of last used style and set style first, then create object.

In here, you can change the style whenever you want, and it'll behave exactly like create first and create object. But, if you don't want to change the style, you can always just create a new object with the last used style.

Thoughts?

On 6/6/2017 11:11 AM, J. F. Lemaire wrote:

On 6 June 2017 at 15:52, brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:

...

Well again, I'm not proposing getting rid of "last style". All I want is for the default, when a new user opens Inkscape for the first time, to be "own style".

I've just checked after running Inkscape with default settings and I notice some tools are set by default to "own style" and others to "last used style". I don't see any reason for this discrepancy and I think all tools should be set to the same behaviour, whatever it is.

Cheers, JFL

------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel

Jean-Francois Lemaire wrote

I don't see any reason for this discrepancy and I think all tools should be set to the same behaviour, whatever it is.

The text tool behaves better with its own style because when writing text people expect filled letters without any border and usually black, not with the same style of the last drawn rectangle or ellipse or whatever.

So the set may be the same for all tools if it's "tool's own style" while I'd avoid "last style" for text as default.

-- View this message in context: http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/last-used-style-tp4979866p4980025.html Sent from the Inkscape - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Everyone seems to be so resistant to the idea of changing all the tools to "own style" for when a first time user opens Inkscape.

I don't understand why.

Because the questions you are seeing asked by new users are caused by a number of factors that relate to how colour and transparency are chosen and used in inkscape. In this thread we are considering all the factors before deciding what to do so we can come up with the best solution, and it's not clear that what you have proposed is the best solution. But we agree that the way it works now is confusing, not only to new users, but seasoned inkscape veterans as well.

But it won't solve the problem I've explained about. It might reduce them, but I doubt by much (if at all).

Setting the default to fixed values for each tool has a high cost to usability for all users. Having to reset colour over and over is a workflow bottleneck that no user should have to deal with, and may drive new users off without asking any questions. The problems those users are having can be solved with a unified solution that does not require a "for new users only" approach. Users should not have to learn something twice in inkscape just to prevent new user questions. Questions are a natural part of the learning process. It's more of a concern that the answer to the user question be a satisfying one that is easy to remember and applies in a consistent way to the rest of inkscape's ux. changing a default value to prevent questions is at best a bandaid for one particular user problem. In UX you want to treat the cause of the disease, not merely make one of the symptoms go away.

Patience is needed, as it's not a simple problem.

-C

And I don't understand why everyone seems so resistant.

Just to repeat myself. This would ONLY affect first time users. It's not taking away anything from existing users. And it would completely prevent these messages that we have to answer.

Can someone explain the resistance?

It would be an adventure.....but if someone would tell me how, I'll make the changes myself. (Although they'd have to explain in so much detail, they probably could do it themselves in that much time....)

Thanks,

brynn

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2017 2:12 PM To: brynn Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; J. F. Lemaire ; Martin Owens ; Olof Bjarnason Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2

Hi brynn. I think maybe we were confused about what you wanted. Sorry we guessed wrong. On the plus side, it opened up discussion of the tools, and how styles are used/reused, and it seems no one likes how it currently is very much - Which is why I'm making mockups of how it could work. I'll try and do a video showing the steps for each option.

It's taking a lot of thought, and consideration of different workflows, because the tools and how they function differ, so coming up with a unified solution that makes everyone happy will take a bit of time.

Can you advise in particular the workflow you are using - I think we would benefit from an example or two. I'll try to get in touch with you on irc this week to discuss it so we properly address your problem.

Thanks for your patience! -C

On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 6:45 AM, brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:

Hi Everyone, Sorry to have made that post just before I logged off for a day and a half. Aside from being a little afraid of what the response might be, I honestly didn't expect much response!

   Also honestly, I was totally lost with most of the discussion.  And

some of it, I can't even make a connection to what I asked. It's almost like my comment about holding onto something for 10 years, prompted everyone else to comment what they've been holding onto for years. But I don't think it ever came back around to my question.

   Moving the tool style indicator, or the selected object indicator,

or when Fill and Stroke is called up, or setting style before/after, etc., (if I followed it all)..... Yikes, I'm totally lost!

   Changing whether we can set the style before or after drawing the

object won't solve the problem I'm having. Not unless you somehow make it impossible to draw first and choose style second. And then you'll have complaints from all the "old" users who have it in their workflow to draw first, style second.

   I'll try to keep up with whatever mockups you come up with, and

offer comments.

   But if I can just reiterate my original request (which doesn't

require a ui change afaik). Please, can we make all the tools set for "This tool's own style" as the default? I don't mean take away "Last Used Style" as an option (well, I was joking when I mentioned it). I just mean, for the default document (which is what newbies use 99% of the time) can it start with everything set for "...Own Style"?

   It would not require current users, who might be using "last style",

to go through and change everything, because their prefs file will keep them using whatever they already use. This would ONLY affect newbies, and make them less confused (and those of us who answer support requests, less bothered!)

   Not that I know much about programming.  But what little I

understand about how Inkscape works, it seems like it wouldn't take much time to make this change. Wouldn't it be just changing one thing, for each tool, in the default doc? Or maybe it's a change in the original prefs file?

   Since I didn't hear any objections - not to what I asked anyway, I

guess I will make the feature request.

Thanks again, brynn

PS - (Re-titled this, in case of comments on my original request.)

-----Original Message----- From: Martin Owens Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 7:51 AM To: Olof Bjarnason ; C R Cc: J. F. Lemaire ; inkscape-devel Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style

On Fri, 2017-06-02 at 11:01 +0200, Olof Bjarnason wrote:

...

Just trying to make this happen, and it won't happen if you do not get buy in from some developer that has the time and energy to make this happen...

This kind of UX is right in my wheelhouse. Please add me as principle developer to work on the design. To which we can then test functionally with users.

Best regards, Martin Owens

---

---

Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel

Setting the default to fixed values for each tool has a high cost to usability for all users.

No, it doesn't affect anyone except people installing Inkscape for the first time. Everyone else's preference file keeps them with all the same prefs they've always had. It wouldn't affect existing users at all!

Having to reset colour over and over is a workflow bottleneck that no user should have to deal with, and may drive new users off without asking any questions.

No, not at all. People have to reset color over and over again ALREADY! I know some people have posted that they use the last used style on purpose. But I think it's probably a small percentage. Personally, I've never wanted the next object I draw with a tool to have the style of the last object.

But either way, people have to reset the color. Whether it the tool's own color, or it's the color of the last object, the color has to be reset, the vast majority of the time.

Users should not have to learn something twice in inkscape just to prevent new user questions.

Huh??

Thanks, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2017 9:42 AM To: Brynn Cc: Olof Bjarnason ; inkscape-devel ; Martin Owens ; J. F. Lemaire Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2

Everyone seems to be so resistant to the idea of changing all the tools to "own style" for when a first time user opens Inkscape.

I don't understand why.

Because the questions you are seeing asked by new users are caused by a number of factors that relate to how colour and transparency are chosen and used in inkscape. In this thread we are considering all the factors before deciding what to do so we can come up with the best solution, and it's not clear that what you have proposed is the best solution. But we agree that the way it works now is confusing, not only to new users, but seasoned inkscape veterans as well.

But it won't solve the problem I've explained about. It might reduce them, but I doubt by much (if at all).

Setting the default to fixed values for each tool has a high cost to usability for all users. Having to reset colour over and over is a workflow bottleneck that no user should have to deal with, and may drive new users off without asking any questions. The problems those users are having can be solved with a unified solution that does not require a "for new users only" approach. Users should not have to learn something twice in inkscape just to prevent new user questions. Questions are a natural part of the learning process. It's more of a concern that the answer to the user question be a satisfying one that is easy to remember and applies in a consistent way to the rest of inkscape's ux. changing a default value to prevent questions is at best a bandaid for one particular user problem. In UX you want to treat the cause of the disease, not merely make one of the symptoms go away.

Patience is needed, as it's not a simple problem.

-C

And I don't understand why everyone seems so resistant.

Just to repeat myself. This would ONLY affect first time users. It's not taking away anything from existing users. And it would completely prevent these messages that we have to answer.

Can someone explain the resistance?

It would be an adventure.....but if someone would tell me how, I'll make the changes myself. (Although they'd have to explain in so much detail, they probably could do it themselves in that much time....)

Thanks,

brynn

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2017 2:12 PM To: brynn Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; J. F. Lemaire ; Martin Owens ; Olof Bjarnason Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2

Hi brynn. I think maybe we were confused about what you wanted. Sorry we guessed wrong. On the plus side, it opened up discussion of the tools, and how styles are used/reused, and it seems no one likes how it currently is very much - Which is why I'm making mockups of how it could work. I'll try and do a video showing the steps for each option.

It's taking a lot of thought, and consideration of different workflows, because the tools and how they function differ, so coming up with a unified solution that makes everyone happy will take a bit of time.

Can you advise in particular the workflow you are using - I think we would benefit from an example or two. I'll try to get in touch with you on irc this week to discuss it so we properly address your problem.

Thanks for your patience! -C

On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 6:45 AM, brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote: Hi Everyone, Sorry to have made that post just before I logged off for a day and a half. Aside from being a little afraid of what the response might be, I honestly didn't expect much response!

Also honestly, I was totally lost with most of the discussion. And some of it, I can't even make a connection to what I asked. It's almost like my comment about holding onto something for 10 years, prompted everyone else to comment what they've been holding onto for years. But I don't think it ever came back around to my question.

Moving the tool style indicator, or the selected object indicator, or when Fill and Stroke is called up, or setting style before/after, etc., (if I followed it all)..... Yikes, I'm totally lost!

Changing whether we can set the style before or after drawing the object won't solve the problem I'm having. Not unless you somehow make it impossible to draw first and choose style second. And then you'll have complaints from all the "old" users who have it in their workflow to draw first, style second.

I'll try to keep up with whatever mockups you come up with, and offer comments.

But if I can just reiterate my original request (which doesn't require a ui change afaik). Please, can we make all the tools set for "This tool's own style" as the default? I don't mean take away "Last Used Style" as an option (well, I was joking when I mentioned it). I just mean, for the default document (which is what newbies use 99% of the time) can it start with everything set for "...Own Style"?

It would not require current users, who might be using "last style", to go through and change everything, because their prefs file will keep them using whatever they already use. This would ONLY affect newbies, and make them less confused (and those of us who answer support requests, less bothered!)

Not that I know much about programming. But what little I understand about how Inkscape works, it seems like it wouldn't take much time to make this change. Wouldn't it be just changing one thing, for each tool, in the default doc? Or maybe it's a change in the original prefs file?

Since I didn't hear any objections - not to what I asked anyway, I guess I will make the feature request.

Thanks again, brynn

PS - (Re-titled this, in case of comments on my original request.)

-----Original Message----- From: Martin Owens Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 7:51 AM To: Olof Bjarnason ; C R Cc: J. F. Lemaire ; inkscape-devel Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style

On Fri, 2017-06-02 at 11:01 +0200, Olof Bjarnason wrote:

Just trying to make this happen, and it won't happen if you do not get buy in from some developer that has the time and energy to make this happen...

This kind of UX is right in my wheelhouse. Please add me as principle developer to work on the design. To which we can then test functionally with users.

Best regards, Martin Owens

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So while I do not agree with your proposed fix, I do appreciate your input.

That isn't fair! We're talking about 2 different things. Stop trying to lump them together!

I wouldn't propose what I'm proposing, to fix the problem you're talking about. And you shouldn't be proposing whatever you're proposing to fix the problem I'm talking about.

Well, I'm not going to keep repeating things I've already said more than once.

I still haven't heard a reasonable explanation why this can't be done. Or shouldn't be done.

Or how whatever you're working on can prevent this problem.

Or an explanation why everyone is so resistant.

What I'm proposing only affects first time users, so why does anyone else care? Don't you understand that existing users' prefs file will make them immune from this? It doesn't take away anyone's choice. It just makes it less confusing for newbies.

Or maybe you don't realize how often this question is posted? I'd say a fair estimate is 3 times monthly. But I wouldn't be surprised if it averages out to once per week. (It tends to come in waves, where we might see it 3 times in one week, or 5 or 6 times in one month, but not again for a couple more. So it's hard to estimate.)

You could change the tools style setting and Still make all the other changes you want. It wouldn't change anything that you're working on.

There's no guarantee that what you're working on will stop the questions. While what I'm suggesting will.

I would much rather answer a couple of messages from newbies who want the same style, than all the messages we get for invisible objects.

Geez, I never expected this would be such a big deal! But I did expect, whatever the answer was, there would be a reasonable explanation.

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2017 1:16 PM To: Brynn Cc: inkscape-devel ; Olof Bjarnason ; J. F. Lemaire ; Martin Owens Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2

No, it doesn't affect anyone except people installing Inkscape for the first time. Everyone else's preference file keeps them with all the same prefs they've always had. It wouldn't affect existing users at all!

I'm not just concerned about existing users. Inkscape should work the same way for all users regardless of I'd they have different prefs or not.

Having to reset colour over and over is a workflow bottleneck that no user should have to deal with, and may drive new users off without asking any questions.

No, not at all. People have to reset color over and over again ALREADY!

Yes, this is the problem, Brynn...

I know some people have posted that they use the last used style on purpose. But I think it's probably a small percentage.

No, it's not. And it's not good to guess. If we were to guess, everyone I've seen comment so far has been asking for the exact opposite of what you want. I'd guess in the opposite direction. But I don't like to guess, I like to think out the whole problem and try to come up with the best solution. This takes time, so I appreciate your patience...

Personally, I've never wanted the next object I draw with a tool to have the style of the last object.

Others do. This is the expected behavior of most other graphics applications too.

But either way, people have to reset the color. Whether it the tool's own color, or it's the color of the last object, the color has to be reset, the vast majority of the time.

No, it really doesn't. This is why I set the preference to last used, because it's much more efficient to keep drawing the lines and shapes you want. Since I learned that truck I only switch colours once in a while. In fact, it might be hours with just one colour line, like in the infographics I have been doing lately. It really is a huge hassle to have to change the stroke and fill all the time, which is why I'm keep to streamline it. It seems like you want to make the opposite the default. I disagree with that, and it doesn't matter if it's new users or pros. I don't set out to just make Inkscape better for myself, which is why I listen to all input. I may not agree with everything, but I always listen, and your input has and will factor into the end result. So while I do not agree with your proposed fix, I do appreciate your input.

-C

Thanks, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2017 9:42 AM To: Brynn Cc: Olof Bjarnason ; inkscape-devel ; Martin Owens ; J. F. Lemaire

Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2

Everyone seems to be so resistant to the idea of changing all the tools to "own style" for when a first time user opens Inkscape.

I don't understand why.

Because the questions you are seeing asked by new users are caused by a number of factors that relate to how colour and transparency are chosen and used in inkscape. In this thread we are considering all the factors before deciding what to do so we can come up with the best solution, and it's not clear that what you have proposed is the best solution. But we agree that the way it works now is confusing, not only to new users, but seasoned inkscape veterans as well.

But it won't solve the problem I've explained about. It might reduce them, but I doubt by much (if at all).

Setting the default to fixed values for each tool has a high cost to usability for all users. Having to reset colour over and over is a workflow bottleneck that no user should have to deal with, and may drive new users off without asking any questions. The problems those users are having can be solved with a unified solution that does not require a "for new users only" approach. Users should not have to learn something twice in inkscape just to prevent new user questions. Questions are a natural part of the learning process. It's more of a concern that the answer to the user question be a satisfying one that is easy to remember and applies in a consistent way to the rest of inkscape's ux. changing a default value to prevent questions is at best a bandaid for one particular user problem. In UX you want to treat the cause of the disease, not merely make one of the symptoms go away.

Patience is needed, as it's not a simple problem.

-C

And I don't understand why everyone seems so resistant.

Just to repeat myself. This would ONLY affect first time users. It's not taking away anything from existing users. And it would completely prevent these messages that we have to answer.

Can someone explain the resistance?

It would be an adventure.....but if someone would tell me how, I'll make the changes myself. (Although they'd have to explain in so much detail, they probably could do it themselves in that much time....)

Thanks,

brynn

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2017 2:12 PM To: brynn Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; J. F. Lemaire ; Martin Owens ; Olof Bjarnason Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2

Hi brynn. I think maybe we were confused about what you wanted. Sorry we guessed wrong. On the plus side, it opened up discussion of the tools, and how styles are used/reused, and it seems no one likes how it currently is very much - Which is why I'm making mockups of how it could work. I'll try and do a video showing the steps for each option.

It's taking a lot of thought, and consideration of different workflows, because the tools and how they function differ, so coming up with a unified solution that makes everyone happy will take a bit of time.

Can you advise in particular the workflow you are using - I think we would benefit from an example or two. I'll try to get in touch with you on irc this week to discuss it so we properly address your problem.

Thanks for your patience! -C

On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 6:45 AM, brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote: Hi Everyone, Sorry to have made that post just before I logged off for a day and a half. Aside from being a little afraid of what the response might be, I honestly didn't expect much response!

Also honestly, I was totally lost with most of the discussion. And some of it, I can't even make a connection to what I asked. It's almost like my comment about holding onto something for 10 years, prompted everyone else to comment what they've been holding onto for years. But I don't think it ever came back around to my question.

Moving the tool style indicator, or the selected object indicator, or when Fill and Stroke is called up, or setting style before/after, etc., (if I followed it all)..... Yikes, I'm totally lost!

Changing whether we can set the style before or after drawing the object won't solve the problem I'm having. Not unless you somehow make it impossible to draw first and choose style second. And then you'll have complaints from all the "old" users who have it in their workflow to draw first, style second.

I'll try to keep up with whatever mockups you come up with, and offer comments.

But if I can just reiterate my original request (which doesn't require a ui change afaik). Please, can we make all the tools set for "This tool's own style" as the default? I don't mean take away "Last Used Style" as an option (well, I was joking when I mentioned it). I just mean, for the default document (which is what newbies use 99% of the time) can it start with everything set for "...Own Style"?

It would not require current users, who might be using "last style", to go through and change everything, because their prefs file will keep them using whatever they already use. This would ONLY affect newbies, and make them less confused (and those of us who answer support requests, less bothered!)

Not that I know much about programming. But what little I understand about how Inkscape works, it seems like it wouldn't take much time to make this change. Wouldn't it be just changing one thing, for each tool, in the default doc? Or maybe it's a change in the original prefs file?

Since I didn't hear any objections - not to what I asked anyway, I guess I will make the feature request.

Thanks again, brynn

PS - (Re-titled this, in case of comments on my original request.)

-----Original Message----- From: Martin Owens Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 7:51 AM To: Olof Bjarnason ; C R Cc: J. F. Lemaire ; inkscape-devel Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style

On Fri, 2017-06-02 at 11:01 +0200, Olof Bjarnason wrote:

Just trying to make this happen, and it won't happen if you do not get buy in from some developer that has the time and energy to make this happen...

This kind of UX is right in my wheelhouse. Please add me as principle developer to work on the design. To which we can then test functionally with users.

Best regards, Martin Owens

------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel

Thanks Maren.

But don't you understand that changing the tool style for first time users will not affect your tool style? You like that? You can use it. Don't force it on unsuspecting first time users.

Doesn't anyone understand that first time users will be many hours of experience away from deciding whether they want "last used" or "own style" for their tools? Can't we just make it simpler for them to get there, without them getting so frustrated that they have to register a new account in an unfamiliar forum, to ask for help over it?

Don't you understand that we already DO have to change the style of every object after we draw it? For those of use who don't want many identically styled objects, we already do change it every time (well newbies, until they learn other ways). That wouldn't be anything new. It's a non-issue!

(which is the one that you must be referring to, Brynn,

because I can't remember people asking for setting a fixed style for a tool repeatedly),

Of course it is. I never imagined other community members would wonder what I'm talking about!

I understand that it's most healthy for the community, that we think and act like there is no "we" and "they". But the fact is that there is. (And pretending it's not is not entirely healthy either.) I honestly think that most developers would be surprised to find out (a) how large the forum community is, (b) how active our forums are, and (c) how many questions are posted for them to answer, that they would actually find interesting, and that we Can't answer.

Now that I think of it, the 2nd most common message I answer, is probably when I have to explain that developers don't use forums, and that the user will have to subscribe to the mailing list to contact developers. Or else I offer to post for them, and relay the answer.

Actually I just posted a new "sticky" topic the other day, related to this (how to discuss potential new features and ultimately request them) to shorten the amount of time it takes to answer, when I have to repeat it so often.

Some day, Not in the remotely near future, maybe I'll try to address that ("we"/"they") in a serious way. But not anytime soon!

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2017 2:43 PM To: inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2

Not sure if this adds anything valuable to the discussion, but I also use 'last used style' on purpose, and I'm also among those who think that if we made it 'this tool's own style' for each tool, it would drive people mad to have to set it each time they draw something - esp. if they do not know yet that this can be changed in the preferences.

What I could imagine, as a solution to our frequent 'objects are invisible' issue (which is the one that you must be referring to, Brynn, because I can't remember people asking for setting a fixed style for a tool repeatedly), would perhaps be something like a small warning triangle or message, that is visible in the status line, when you would draw an object that wouldn't be visible at all, and that gives the reason. Not sure if that would be too much visibility, but it would provide a solution to the actual issue.

Maren

Am 06.06.2017 um 20:35 schrieb brynn:

...

Setting the default to fixed values for each tool has a high cost to usability for all users.

No, it doesn't affect anyone except people installing Inkscape for the first time. Everyone else's preference file keeps them with all the same prefs they've always had. It wouldn't affect existing users at all!

...

Having to reset colour over and over is a workflow bottleneck that no user should have to deal with, and may drive new users off without asking any questions.

No, not at all. People have to reset color over and over again ALREADY! I know some people have posted that they use the last used style on purpose. But I think it's probably a small percentage. Personally, I've never wanted the next object I draw with a tool to have the style of the last object.

But either way, people have to reset the color. Whether it the tool's own color, or it's the color of the last object, the color has to be reset, the vast majority of the time.

...

Users should not have to learn something twice in inkscape just to prevent new user questions.

Huh??

Thanks, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2017 9:42 AM To: Brynn Cc: Olof Bjarnason ; inkscape-devel ; Martin Owens ; J. F. Lemaire Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2

Everyone seems to be so resistant to the idea of changing all the tools to "own style" for when a first time user opens Inkscape.

I don't understand why.

Because the questions you are seeing asked by new users are caused by a number of factors that relate to how colour and transparency are chosen and used in inkscape. In this thread we are considering all the factors before deciding what to do so we can come up with the best solution, and it's not clear that what you have proposed is the best solution. But we agree that the way it works now is confusing, not only to new users, but seasoned inkscape veterans as well.

But it won't solve the problem I've explained about. It might reduce them, but I doubt by much (if at all).

Setting the default to fixed values for each tool has a high cost to usability for all users. Having to reset colour over and over is a workflow bottleneck that no user should have to deal with, and may drive new users off without asking any questions. The problems those users are having can be solved with a unified solution that does not require a "for new users only" approach. Users should not have to learn something twice in inkscape just to prevent new user questions. Questions are a natural part of the learning process. It's more of a concern that the answer to the user question be a satisfying one that is easy to remember and applies in a consistent way to the rest of inkscape's ux. changing a default value to prevent questions is at best a bandaid for one particular user problem. In UX you want to treat the cause of the disease, not merely make one of the symptoms go away.

Patience is needed, as it's not a simple problem.

-C

And I don't understand why everyone seems so resistant.

Just to repeat myself. This would ONLY affect first time users. It's not taking away anything from existing users. And it would completely prevent these messages that we have to answer.

Can someone explain the resistance?

It would be an adventure.....but if someone would tell me how, I'll make the changes myself. (Although they'd have to explain in so much detail, they probably could do it themselves in that much time....)

Thanks,

brynn

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2017 2:12 PM To: brynn Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; J. F. Lemaire ; Martin Owens ; Olof Bjarnason Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2

Hi brynn. I think maybe we were confused about what you wanted. Sorry we guessed wrong. On the plus side, it opened up discussion of the tools, and how styles are used/reused, and it seems no one likes how it currently is very much - Which is why I'm making mockups of how it could work. I'll try and do a video showing the steps for each option.

It's taking a lot of thought, and consideration of different workflows, because the tools and how they function differ, so coming up with a unified solution that makes everyone happy will take a bit of time.

Can you advise in particular the workflow you are using - I think we would benefit from an example or two. I'll try to get in touch with you on irc this week to discuss it so we properly address your problem.

Thanks for your patience! -C

On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 6:45 AM, brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote: Hi Everyone, Sorry to have made that post just before I logged off for a day and a half. Aside from being a little afraid of what the response might be, I honestly didn't expect much response!

  Also honestly, I was totally lost with most of the discussion.  And

some of it, I can't even make a connection to what I asked. It's almost like my comment about holding onto something for 10 years, prompted everyone else to comment what they've been holding onto for years. But I don't think it ever came back around to my question.

  Moving the tool style indicator, or the selected object indicator, or

when Fill and Stroke is called up, or setting style before/after, etc., (if I followed it all)..... Yikes, I'm totally lost!

  Changing whether we can set the style before or after drawing the

object won't solve the problem I'm having. Not unless you somehow make it impossible to draw first and choose style second. And then you'll have complaints from all the "old" users who have it in their workflow to draw first, style second.

  I'll try to keep up with whatever mockups you come up with, and offer

comments.

  But if I can just reiterate my original request (which doesn't

require a ui change afaik). Please, can we make all the tools set for "This tool's own style" as the default? I don't mean take away "Last Used Style" as an option (well, I was joking when I mentioned it). I just mean, for the default document (which is what newbies use 99% of the time) can it start with everything set for "...Own Style"?

  It would not require current users, who might be using "last style",

to go through and change everything, because their prefs file will keep them using whatever they already use. This would ONLY affect newbies, and make them less confused (and those of us who answer support requests, less bothered!)

  Not that I know much about programming.  But what little I understand

about how Inkscape works, it seems like it wouldn't take much time to make this change. Wouldn't it be just changing one thing, for each tool, in the default doc? Or maybe it's a change in the original prefs file?

  Since I didn't hear any objections - not to what I asked anyway, I

guess I will make the feature request.

Thanks again, brynn

PS - (Re-titled this, in case of comments on my original request.)

-----Original Message----- From: Martin Owens Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 7:51 AM To: Olof Bjarnason ; C R Cc: J. F. Lemaire ; inkscape-devel Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style

On Fri, 2017-06-02 at 11:01 +0200, Olof Bjarnason wrote:

Just trying to make this happen, and it won't happen if you do not get buy in from some developer that has the time and energy to make this happen...

This kind of UX is right in my wheelhouse. Please add me as principle developer to work on the design. To which we can then test functionally with users.

Best regards, Martin Owens

---

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---

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Hi Brynn, you're obviously free to make the feature request, but I'm not sure the solution you propose is the best one.

From a first-time user point of view I think that having all circles with a

fixed style and all rectangles with another fixed one may be confusing. Then he may learn how to go inside the configuration window and change those fixed styles (and say: "Ooh, what's that use-last-style wonderful option?" :) ) but in the meantime he's bound to change the style of every object he draws. My mind is probably stuck with my workflow, but I really can't see any usefulness of such a per tool fixed configuration.

The point for new users is to understand that they _first_ have to draw, _after_ they can change the style. And this is what is discussed in this thread: it is a counterintuitive way of working. IMHO fixing the style is just a way to hide this problem under the carpet (which can be both a good and a bad thing with new users). So the proposals to change the current behavior into _first_the_style_ (and being able to clearly see the current one) and then _draw_ would achieve the double objective of making happy what seems to be a lot of current users while improving the friendliness of the interface toward inexperienced users.

This is what in my understandings is the link between your first request and the following posts, not something completely unrelated as you may have thought.

Luca

-- View this message in context: http://inkscape.13.x6.nabble.com/last-used-style-tp4979866p4979989.html Sent from the Inkscape - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

A real-world analogy would be for an artist to not pick brush & color

before touching the canvas, but instead to draw using some kind of black chalk, which is then "transmorfed" - using magic - into another another style.

Well, that's if you're talking about painting with a brush. What if you're talking about sketching? You don't go and color everything in, and then later come back and draw the outlines.

I see the current draw first, style second as more intuitive, for rank newbies. If it weren't, we wouldn't be getting this question over and over again!

Thanks :-) brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Olof Bjarnason Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 8:03 AM To: LucaDC Cc: Inkscape Devel List Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2

On 5 June 2017 at 14:57, LucaDC <dicappello@...2144...> wrote:

Hi Brynn, you're obviously free to make the feature request, but I'm not sure the solution you propose is the best one. From a first-time user point of view I think that having all circles with a fixed style and all rectangles with another fixed one may be confusing. Then he may learn how to go inside the configuration window and change those fixed styles (and say: "Ooh, what's that use-last-style wonderful option?" :) ) but in the meantime he's bound to change the style of every object he draws. My mind is probably stuck with my workflow, but I really can't see any usefulness of such a per tool fixed configuration.

The point for new users is to understand that they _first_ have to draw, _after_ they can change the style. And this is what is discussed in this thread: it is a counterintuitive way of working. IMHO fixing the style is just a way to hide this problem under the carpet (which can be both a good and a bad thing with new users). So the proposals to change the current behavior into _first_the_style_ (and being able to clearly see the current one) and then _draw_ would achieve the double objective of making happy what seems to be a lot of current users while improving the friendliness of the interface toward inexperienced users.

A real-world analogy would be for an artist to not pick brush & color before touching the canvas, but instead to draw using some kind of black chalk, which is then "transmorfed" - using magic - into another another style.

I think this backwards-order is what most people stumble upon when starting to use Inkscape.

Ctrl+Shift+V (paste style) has become my dear Inkscape friend to workaround Inkscape's oddity in this case.

This is what in my understandings is the link between your first request and the following posts, not something completely unrelated as you may have thought.

Luca

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Hi Brynn,

I understand your explanations.

I won't insist in saying what's better for newbies because I don't feel I have a broad enough experience about this aspect. What I can say is that I had to set the "use last style" option for geometric tools in every installation I've done for colleagues and friends because they usually expect the next object to be drawn with the same style they've set for the last one: - draw an object (not the right style); - open the style dialog and set it correctly; - draw another object: expect it to have the same style just set in the dialog. This happens because they usually think that the style they have just changed behaves like when changing the font of the current paragraph in a word processor and then resume typing.

Also, they usually find cumbersome the fact that the same is not applied to text objects, for which you need to keep the tool's own style unless you want to have to change it every time you switch from a geometrical tool to a textual tool and again when back to a geometrical tool. And you can't set the text style before typing the first letter but you can for the second one...

So my experience seems to be the exact opposite of yours... :)

Luca

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