If I'd been there, I could have helped steer that discussion to something implementable and avoid getting stuck in a dead end, and I'm very sorry I didn't make it. Martin is exactly right that syncing ourselves up would be far easier in face to face communication.
It would be great to talk in person. I do hope you can make it to the next one! :)
What's great is that we all share the same ultimate goal here - making the Inkscape software as good as it can be. And, secondarily, those of us following these discussion threads also recognize the immense value that donors can and are bringing to our project, and share the same interest in using their contributions to solve problems that face our software, community, and developers.
Definitely. :)
We may find ourselves starting on different pages, but at least we're in the same book!
Agree! It's great and motivating to share the success of this wonderful project, and work to make it better.
As they say, you have to crawl before you walk, and walk before you run.
Yes. This is why the short term solutions were being considered - we didn't want to rush anything.
Unfortunately, we're very far from being able to manage a payroll, both financially and managerially.
Absolutely. This is in fact the entire reason Patreon came up - it has proven to be an effective tool for various developers in other FLOSS projects to make a living writing code for projects that are understaffed, and/or have yet to take the first steps to supporting part-time/fulltime work.
Personally I think from a management standpoint we're at a point we might be able to handle some limited contract work (on the scale of GSoC, maybe with a few tweaks and enhancements), but if we do, we need to tie it very tightly to donors and their desires so we don't disappoint them, but instead strengthen their interest in continuing their support of us.
I agree, however I don't think Patreon will cannibalize current inkscape funds. It just gives people a more direct way to fund parts of the program they wish to see accelerated development on. A good example is øyvind kolås (pippin) of the GIMP project who is now able to work full-time developing GEGL which is what GIMP now uses for it's pixel-processing core. This has not affected GIMP's project funds. So I don't believe it's one or the other.
Financially, our income is healthy but irregular; I don't feel it is steady enough to depend on longer term, and think we need to do a lot more to strengthen it before we can think of it that way.
I think that's right on the money, if you'll pardon the pun. :)
So if you raised some expectations with students wishing for reliable employment opportunities, it's a bit of a shame - that's something that would be great if we could do, but honestly it's far beyond our abilities to commit to right now.
Agreed, but it was far from a promise. All I said was that Patreon has worked for others in the FLOSS development world (as well as countless other fields where independent content creators work), and it could work as a short term measure. That's far from a guarantee. It's highly dependant on their own presentation and follow through, which was the point - it has accountability built into the payment model. Patrons can withdraw funding (it's a monthly donation system) if they aren't seeing any progress.
I would hate to put them in a position of dependency on us, when there's a large risk we'd let them down.
Precisely why I've suggested Patreon. It's a way for independents to self-fund - it's not really different than raising your own hackfest travel money, for example. :)
If we did have the means to start paying for full-time work, it's not at all clear that we'd want to fund entry-level workers. Inkscape might benefit more from hiring for experience.
Yes, this Patreon suggestion was made to two of our long time developers. This is why I said to blame me if you're upset about it. I don't think anyone was expecting resistance to the idea, since A: The project has never discouraged self-funding, which leaves Inkscape funds free to pay for essential items like hackfests, swag, etc. and B: It's something that's worked for others in the FLOSS community without any negative side effects.
It might even make sense not to hire a core developer, but someone to work on non-core areas that need desperately but fail to find any volunteers.
Sure. We have discussed a lot of funding options. I'd love to try a kickstarter to raise funds for things that have been needing fixing for years. We can also try to attract more volunteers to fix bugs. Now that we have the beginnings of the Vectors team, there's lots we can start to do. Just give us a direction you want to go. :)
Anyway, again, thank you C R for identifying where this got offtrack, and explaining the larger context. I'm glad we're all of similar mind on the main goals, we just need to work harder to get on the same page.
I think a lot of it probably boils down to trying things and seeing what will work, what can be done realistically with what we have, while planning and taking a direction together towards perhaps a better long-term solution. It's a pleasure to start this new path with you, Martin, and the rest of the Inkscape team. Exciting times to be sure. :)
I will have to humbly admit here, that while I have done a fair amount of thinking in this area, I've been horribly untransparent at sharing my personal findings and conclusions. I'm sure that has only served to further disconnect our collective understanding, and I'm very sorry about that. Having only me convinced of something doesn't help us as a group, and ultimately it's all of us that matter, not me.
I see the bright flame of passion in everyone's replies. Everyone always astounds me with how very many brilliant minds we have in this and other FLOSS projects. Martin does an excellent job of getting things in motion, taking ideas and running with them, supporting them with code and functionality for the website. With his passion for problem solving, I can see how it may have looked like the *only* solution for Inkscape developer funding. But we are always considering alternatives. Thanks for taking time to share some possibilities, and an assessment of our current situation- it's directly in line with what was discussed at the hackfest, and what lead us to consider Patreon as a stop-gap to funding for a few of our current devs, and as a possible means of attracting outside long-term help. It may not work at all, but I think none of us has a crystal ball.
We're just trying stuff. :)
At your service, always. -C
Bryce