Re: [Inkscape-devel] pressure sensitivity for Pencil tool using powerstroke?

4 Sep 2017

      Hi
On Mon, 2017-09-04 at 13:06 +0100, C R wrote:
...
The thing is, with Jabier's brush system, you may be actually be able
to do these things in the near future.
Too optimist without near 0 lines of code write. Is a very complex
problem And I realy think I coulden't do without hard help. But I try.
Cheers, Jabier.
...
If we make up new names for things just to prevent comparisons and
user questions, we sacrifice discover-ability, and also wishlist
items
that make the brush system more versatile and easier to use.
No doubt we get all sorts of questions about raster transformations
from people who are new to a vector editor. This is not a good enough
reason to change common terminology between the programs, it is a
good
opportunity to educate people on the differences between vector and
raster editors.
A vector brush is still a brush, just as a raster brush is still a
brush. The functionality is identical to the user, and so should the
terminology.
Also, when people do compare, we can immediately point out the
advantages of Inkscape vector brushes vs. GIMP brushes - just have
them zoom in. :) They'll get it right away.
-C
...
If we call them something that more reflects the vector-ness, then
we don't
have that problem.  I'm afraid that people will compare them to
raster
brushes, and they just aren't the same.  They're similar, but so
very
different, at the same time.
In many other areas, Inkscape has created its own terminology...or
used SVG
terminology.  Inkscape calls "nodes" what other programs call
"points", as a
prominent example.  Inkscape calls 'paths" what other programs call
"lines".
I wonder if we could look to SVG (standards) to guide the
terminology...somehow?
All best,
brynn
-----Original Message----- From: C R
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2017 1:31 AM
To: brynn
Cc: Jabiertxo Arraiza Cenoz ; inkscape-devel
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] pressure sensitivity for Pencil tool
using
powerstroke?
...
Does Inkscape really strive to be a vector-brush drawing
program??  Isn't
that like saying "vector paint program"?
Inkscape is a vector drawing program. In previous threads, we
expanded
the term "drawing" to encompass, well pretty much anything. :)
Why limit Inkscape's vector capabilities because it doesn't fit a
particular definition of "drawing"?
...
I've really seen the term brush used more and more lately, in
reference to
Inkscape, and in what I consider to be an inappropriate
way.  Inkscape can
achieve brush-like effects, with great effort.  But unless there
really is
some plan to actually add true brushes, and develop Inkscape in
that
direction, I think we should discourage using that term.  It
gives a false
impression of Inkscape capabilities, imo.
The term "brush" is used because that's what the effect is.
Inkscape
already has vector brushes in the Caligraphy tool. It's important
to
use terminology that users are familiar with. Saves a lot of
explaining, just to be told "well, why didn't you call them
brushes"
like everyone else? :) I brush (in all graphics programs) refers to
a
shape applied along a path with added transformations. The effect
is
that it acts like a brush, so the term brush is appropriate here as
well as in other drawing/painting/editing applications.
...
As it's referred to on the Pen and Pencil control bars, I think
Shapes is
better, referring to the profile of the stroke.  Shapes, or maybe
even
"stroke profiles".
Or we could call them "brushes" like everyone else does, and spare
the
user the technical jargon we make up. :)
Our "stroke profiles" are analogous to "brushes" in other programs.
So
when people ask "does Inkscape have brushes?" And we hit them with
"no, but we have stroke profiles." Yea... let's just call them
brushes
like everyone else does, for the same reasons everyone else does.
:)
...
Referring to a different comment in this thread, I didn't intend
to "bash"
GIMP earlier.
That comment was in regard to the remark "There's something good in
GIMP?" - Don't do this, people. GIMP project are our friends, and
you'll make none here by belittling another projects hard work.
...
I just dislike the interface, as a personal opinion.
We are not talking about GIMP's whole interface (as if one could
write
it all off as "bad" or something).
Someone is mocking up wireframes based on how GIMP handles brushes.
That's what sparked the GIMP comments... and people keep derailing
the
conversation.
GIMP's entire user interface is not within the scope of this
thread.
Let's see where the wireframes go before denouncing it because it
might look kinda like how GIMP does it.
...
There's
every chance it's an effective interface for a raster
program.  But I
don't
think it would be effective for Inkscape.
No one is suggesting copying GIMPs whole user interface. :P
...
What's wrong with the Shapes
menu, to hold the stroke profiles or so-called "brushes"?
"Where are the brushes in Inkscape"
"They are in the 'Shapes Menu'."
Nah, not feeling it, personally. ;) Most everything in Inkscape is
a
"shape". Say "Brush", and people will know what you are talking
about
right away.
No need to reinvent the wheel here from my perspective. We could
call
them "vector brushes" like Krita does. It's important to stick with
terms that are analogous to real life terms that are similar to the
functionality. It makes learning and recall easier, and thus more
intuitive.
-C
...
All best,
brynn
-----Original Message----- From: C R
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 2:39 AM
To: Jabiertxo Arraiza Cenoz
Cc: inkscape-devel
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] pressure sensitivity for Pencil
tool using
powerstroke?
I think breaking out the brushes and effects into a dialog of its
own
is really the only way to go. I've not encountered a single
graphics
program out there which handles many (potentially customisable)
brushes that doesn't have it's own side-panel/dock for the brush
pallet. It really MUST happen at some point for Inkscape to
become a
better vector-brush drawing program.
Thanks to all for the hard work on this, esp Jabier!
-C
On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 11:53 PM, Jabier Arraiza
<jabier.arraiza@...2893...> wrote:
...
Hi all.
As far I undertand boolop union result is more for the
caligraphic tool
than for the pencil tool.
Anyway we have a feature that Nate like too much and is not
pressent in
Calligrapic tool is the min/max pressure. This is easy to do
but we
need more space on the toolbox because it not fit into my
monitor size.
Is not the only tool that have this problem and when the
program grow
the problem become bigger. Also because the lack of space we
need to
compress the widgets and make hard to undertand. The cuestion:
¿What about removing this toolbar by a tool dialog in the right
like
for example Gimp, that autoupdate controls between tool
changes?
This give "unlimited" size to expand tools. Also I'm in favor
of a
expander at the end of this dialog for advanced users or not
all day
use features.
Finaly seems easy boolop union with previous strokes in
calligraphic
tool.
Cheers, Jabier.
On Mon, 2017-08-28 at 13:13 -0400, Nate Yungkans wrote:
...
Hi! I figure I'll just throw myself in here.
It sounds like you are requesting something like the Adobe
illustrator blob brush. Essentially this tool is like
Inkscape's
calligraphy brush with an auto merge feature. Which could in
fact be
a handy feature. In illustrator you can paint with the brush
and the
new shapes merge it with a selection or a layer or maybe even
all.
The same effect can be achieved by using Inkscape's
calligraphy brush
and then merging the shapes. All the blob brush does is make
that
automatic.
The really cool thing you added to the pencil that would also
be cool
on the calligraphy tool is the Max/min size.
Illustrator Bob brush tool: https://youtu.be/4bhltsqSp_0
Am I correct in my interpretation of what you are asking for
Miguel?
On Aug 27, 2017 10:12 PM, "Miguel Lopez" <reptillia39@...3603...
m>
wrote:
...
I like the work that's being done, by the way, I have a
suggestion.
You know how you can spray objects and have the path joined
together, right? I'd like to see the option to do that
while
stroking.
On 8/27/2017 6:38 PM, Ivan Louette via Inkscape-devel
wrote:
> Very convincing ! And there we have even more control
> than
> Expression for simple lines !
> 
> ivan
> 
> 
> Le Lundi 28 août 2017 0h27, Jabier Arraiza <jabier.arraiz
> a@...3394...
> .es> a écrit :
> 
> 
> Hi all!
> 
> This week I do a similar implementation and mark it for
> merge
> request.
> Here are a preview of the new branch running:
> https://archive.org/details/inkscapepencilpressure
> 
> All the best, Jabier.
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 2017-08-21 at 22:36 -0400, Nate Yungkans wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > I'm Nate, the one who posted in the forums. I started
> > just
> 
> asking if
> > the feature existed, but was told I should ask for it
> > as a
> 
> feature so
> > here I am. Hello :)  First I wanted to say I love the
> > program
> 
> and
> > find the features super useful. The powerstroke is one
> > of the
> 
> coolest
> > features and I am having a lot of fun playing around
> > with it. I
> 
> have
> > been an Adobe Illustrator for years but I am already
> > enjoying
> > inkscape more. Anyways, the reason I was asking about
> > pressure
> > sensitive line work is because it could be a huge time
> > saver
> 
> for
> > manga art(or any extensive line art) where line work is
> 
> incredibly
> > important. It seems like all of the features actually
> > exist in
> > Inkscape, but not together as a tool. The calligraphy
> > pen works
> > nicely with pressure and the mass(for precision), but
> > if the
> 
> line
> > needs to be edited in an meaningful way, they basically
> > need to
> 
> be
> > redrawn.
> > 
> > The powerstroke feature is awesome, but in its current
> > state
> 
> may
> > require a lot of manual setting line thicknesses if
> > there are a
> 
> lot
> > of complicated lines. Being able to control the stroke
> > width
> 
> via
> > pressure would make it a very smooth process.
> > Unfortunately it
> 
> would
> > not be as useful without a preview as you draw. Maybe
> > it could
> 
> use
> > the same preview the calligraphy tool uses? Even if
> > that isn't
> 
> a 100%
> > representation of the final product, it would guide the
> > user to
> > understand how much pressure they are applying.
> > 
> > I asked about an auto simplify feature not only for the
> > benefit
> 
> of
> > reducing the number of nodes, but also in aiding fast
> > smoothed
> 
> line
> > work. I see that a line drawn with a pencil has a
> > smoothing
> 
> feature,
> > maybe that can also be applied to the powerstroke outer
> > lines
> 
> as
> > well; or maybe the pressure has an adjustable sample
> > rate?
> > 
> > Additionally, it would be fantastic if there was a way
> > to
> 
> increase or
> > decrease the relative distance of the powerstroke nodes
> > from
> 
> main
> > path. In essence it would be like increasing or
> > decreasing the
> 
> width
> > of the powerstroke. As an example I recorded my screen
> > using a
> > variable brush tool in Illustrator. It reads the pen
> > pressure
> 
> and
> > applies it to the stroke, but also allows that stroke
> > to be
> 
> increases
> > or decreased.
> > 
> > Screen capture example Video: https://youtu.be/u78JlGD9
> > Y34
> > 
> > Example of the adobe brush tool simplify/fidelity
> > options: http
> 
> s://yo
> > utu.be/iIW_oeUcO2E?t=144
> > 
> > That same tool in adobe also has settings to
> > control/limit the
> 
> brush
> > size and shape. I've been utilizing mass, thinning and
> > fixation
> 
> to
> > accomplish this effect in Inkscape.
> > 
> > 
> >  https://youtu.be/iIW_oeUcO2E?t=97
> > 
> > 
> > I think that covers what I was originally asking about
> > and
> 
> more.
> > Hopefully it was not too much. Thanks so much for all
> > the hard
> 
> work
> > you have put into the program!  I know this software is
> > a lot
> 
> of work
> > and new features are no small thing. I am not really a
> 
> programmer so
> > I can't contribute to the effort that way, but if you
> > have a
> 
> need or
> > desire to include a UX/UI designer I would be happy to
> > help!
> > 
> > Manga line example that I did not draw:
> > 
> > 
> > If you got through the whole email, thanks for
> > listening!
> > -Nate
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > Nate
> > 
> > On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Jabier Arraiza
> > <jabier.arraiza
> 
> @marke
> > r.es> wrote:
> > > I wait he present to the list to reply.
> > > 
> > > Cheers, Jabier.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Mon, 2017-08-21 at 05:44 -0600, brynn wrote:
> > > > > Hi Brynn.
> > > > 
> > > > Great and easy to do. I could do if we want. The
> > > > problem is
> 
> no
> > > > realtime
> > > > preview, so you need to finish the path to see the
> > > > variable
> > > 
> > > width.
> > > > 
> > > > Maybe I can add a preview while drawing but this is
> > > > more
> 
> complex.
> > > > 
> > > > Cheers, Jabier.
> > > > ________________________________________________
> > > > 
> > > > Well I don't use this kind of feature myself.  So I
> 
> couldn't say
> > > if
> > > > the lack of
> > > > live preview would be crippling.  I'll try to get
> > > > the
> 
> person who
> > > > posted the
> > > > message to subscribe to the list, so he can give
> > > > comments.
> > > > 
> > > > How would it work?  Would it add pink nodes where
> > > > the
> 
> pressure is
> > > > greater?  And
> > > > then the artist drags them after the path is
> > > > finished?  Or
> 
> would
> > > the
> > > > variable
> > > > width be immediately evident when the path is
> > > > finished?
> > > > 
> > > > And it would only work with graphics tablets?
> > > > 
> > > > One benefit for such a tool (it seems to me) would
> > > > be that
> 
> the
> > > number
> > > > of nodes
> > > > probably would not build up so fast, as it does
> > > > with
> 
> Calligraphy.
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks, Jabier.  I'll try to get this guy to
> > > > subscribe so
> 
> he can
> > > > discuss
> > > > directly.
> > > > 
> > > > All best,,
> > > > brynn
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Jabier Arraiza
> > > > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 2:23 AM
> > > > To: brynn ; Inkscape-Devel
> > > > Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] pressure sensitivity
> > > > for
> 
> Pencil
> > > tool
> > > > using
> > > > powerstroke?
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > ---------------------------------------------------
> > > --------
> 
> ------
> > > -------------
> > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the
> > > world's
> 
> most
> > > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/sl
> > > ashdot
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Inkscape-devel mailing list
> > > Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape
> > > -devel
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ---------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the
> world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashd
> ot______
> _________________________________________
> Inkscape-devel mailing list
> Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-dev
> el
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> ---------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the
> world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashd
> ot
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-devel mailing list
> Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-dev
> el

Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Inkscape-devel mailing list
Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel

Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Inkscape-devel mailing list
Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel