Well, I'm just thinking of it in terms of providing support. If they are called brushes, then pretty soon, we're getting messages like "your brushes are crap, why don't you make them work like all the other brushes in the world". "Why don't you have a so and so brush, like all the other paint programs?" "Why can't I import the brush I made in GIMP into Inkscape?" And etc. (We actually had the latter question in a forum, a few years ago!)
If we call them something that more reflects the vector-ness, then we don't have that problem. I'm afraid that people will compare them to raster brushes, and they just aren't the same. They're similar, but so very different, at the same time.
In many other areas, Inkscape has created its own terminology...or used SVG terminology. Inkscape calls "nodes" what other programs call "points", as a prominent example. Inkscape calls 'paths" what other programs call "lines".
I wonder if we could look to SVG (standards) to guide the terminology...somehow?
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2017 1:31 AM To: brynn Cc: Jabiertxo Arraiza Cenoz ; inkscape-devel Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] pressure sensitivity for Pencil tool using powerstroke?
Does Inkscape really strive to be a vector-brush drawing program?? Isn't that like saying "vector paint program"?
Inkscape is a vector drawing program. In previous threads, we expanded the term "drawing" to encompass, well pretty much anything. :) Why limit Inkscape's vector capabilities because it doesn't fit a particular definition of "drawing"?
I've really seen the term brush used more and more lately, in reference to Inkscape, and in what I consider to be an inappropriate way. Inkscape can achieve brush-like effects, with great effort. But unless there really is some plan to actually add true brushes, and develop Inkscape in that direction, I think we should discourage using that term. It gives a false impression of Inkscape capabilities, imo.
The term "brush" is used because that's what the effect is. Inkscape already has vector brushes in the Caligraphy tool. It's important to use terminology that users are familiar with. Saves a lot of explaining, just to be told "well, why didn't you call them brushes" like everyone else? :) I brush (in all graphics programs) refers to a shape applied along a path with added transformations. The effect is that it acts like a brush, so the term brush is appropriate here as well as in other drawing/painting/editing applications.
As it's referred to on the Pen and Pencil control bars, I think Shapes is better, referring to the profile of the stroke. Shapes, or maybe even "stroke profiles".
Or we could call them "brushes" like everyone else does, and spare the user the technical jargon we make up. :) Our "stroke profiles" are analogous to "brushes" in other programs. So when people ask "does Inkscape have brushes?" And we hit them with "no, but we have stroke profiles." Yea... let's just call them brushes like everyone else does, for the same reasons everyone else does. :)
Referring to a different comment in this thread, I didn't intend to "bash" GIMP earlier.
That comment was in regard to the remark "There's something good in GIMP?" - Don't do this, people. GIMP project are our friends, and you'll make none here by belittling another projects hard work.
I just dislike the interface, as a personal opinion.
We are not talking about GIMP's whole interface (as if one could write it all off as "bad" or something). Someone is mocking up wireframes based on how GIMP handles brushes. That's what sparked the GIMP comments... and people keep derailing the conversation. GIMP's entire user interface is not within the scope of this thread. Let's see where the wireframes go before denouncing it because it might look kinda like how GIMP does it.
There's every chance it's an effective interface for a raster program. But I don't think it would be effective for Inkscape.
No one is suggesting copying GIMPs whole user interface. :P
What's wrong with the Shapes menu, to hold the stroke profiles or so-called "brushes"?
"Where are the brushes in Inkscape" "They are in the 'Shapes Menu'."
Nah, not feeling it, personally. ;) Most everything in Inkscape is a "shape". Say "Brush", and people will know what you are talking about right away.
No need to reinvent the wheel here from my perspective. We could call them "vector brushes" like Krita does. It's important to stick with terms that are analogous to real life terms that are similar to the functionality. It makes learning and recall easier, and thus more intuitive.
-C
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 2:39 AM To: Jabiertxo Arraiza Cenoz Cc: inkscape-devel
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] pressure sensitivity for Pencil tool using powerstroke?
I think breaking out the brushes and effects into a dialog of its own is really the only way to go. I've not encountered a single graphics program out there which handles many (potentially customisable) brushes that doesn't have it's own side-panel/dock for the brush pallet. It really MUST happen at some point for Inkscape to become a better vector-brush drawing program.
Thanks to all for the hard work on this, esp Jabier! -C
On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 11:53 PM, Jabier Arraiza <jabier.arraiza@...2893...> wrote:
Hi all.
As far I undertand boolop union result is more for the caligraphic tool than for the pencil tool.
Anyway we have a feature that Nate like too much and is not pressent in Calligrapic tool is the min/max pressure. This is easy to do but we need more space on the toolbox because it not fit into my monitor size.
Is not the only tool that have this problem and when the program grow the problem become bigger. Also because the lack of space we need to compress the widgets and make hard to undertand. The cuestion:
¿What about removing this toolbar by a tool dialog in the right like for example Gimp, that autoupdate controls between tool changes? This give "unlimited" size to expand tools. Also I'm in favor of a expander at the end of this dialog for advanced users or not all day use features.
Finaly seems easy boolop union with previous strokes in calligraphic tool.
Cheers, Jabier.
On Mon, 2017-08-28 at 13:13 -0400, Nate Yungkans wrote:
Hi! I figure I'll just throw myself in here.
It sounds like you are requesting something like the Adobe illustrator blob brush. Essentially this tool is like Inkscape's calligraphy brush with an auto merge feature. Which could in fact be a handy feature. In illustrator you can paint with the brush and the new shapes merge it with a selection or a layer or maybe even all. The same effect can be achieved by using Inkscape's calligraphy brush and then merging the shapes. All the blob brush does is make that automatic.
The really cool thing you added to the pencil that would also be cool on the calligraphy tool is the Max/min size.
Illustrator Bob brush tool: https://youtu.be/4bhltsqSp_0
Am I correct in my interpretation of what you are asking for Miguel?
On Aug 27, 2017 10:12 PM, "Miguel Lopez" <reptillia39@...3425...> wrote:
I like the work that's being done, by the way, I have a suggestion. You know how you can spray objects and have the path joined together, right? I'd like to see the option to do that while stroking.
On 8/27/2017 6:38 PM, Ivan Louette via Inkscape-devel wrote:
Very convincing ! And there we have even more control than Expression for simple lines !
ivan
Le Lundi 28 août 2017 0h27, Jabier Arraiza <jabier.arraiza@...3394... .es> a écrit :
Hi all!
This week I do a similar implementation and mark it for merge request. Here are a preview of the new branch running: https://archive.org/details/inkscapepencilpressure
All the best, Jabier.
On Mon, 2017-08-21 at 22:36 -0400, Nate Yungkans wrote:
Hi All, I'm Nate, the one who posted in the forums. I started just
asking if
the feature existed, but was told I should ask for it as a
feature so
here I am. Hello :) First I wanted to say I love the program
and
find the features super useful. The powerstroke is one of the
coolest
features and I am having a lot of fun playing around with it. I
have
been an Adobe Illustrator for years but I am already enjoying inkscape more. Anyways, the reason I was asking about pressure sensitive line work is because it could be a huge time saver
for
manga art(or any extensive line art) where line work is
incredibly
important. It seems like all of the features actually exist in Inkscape, but not together as a tool. The calligraphy pen works nicely with pressure and the mass(for precision), but if the
line
needs to be edited in an meaningful way, they basically need to
be
redrawn.
The powerstroke feature is awesome, but in its current state
may
require a lot of manual setting line thicknesses if there are a
lot
of complicated lines. Being able to control the stroke width
via
pressure would make it a very smooth process. Unfortunately it
would
not be as useful without a preview as you draw. Maybe it could
use
the same preview the calligraphy tool uses? Even if that isn't
a 100%
representation of the final product, it would guide the user to understand how much pressure they are applying.
I asked about an auto simplify feature not only for the benefit
of
reducing the number of nodes, but also in aiding fast smoothed
line
work. I see that a line drawn with a pencil has a smoothing
feature,
maybe that can also be applied to the powerstroke outer lines
as
well; or maybe the pressure has an adjustable sample rate?
Additionally, it would be fantastic if there was a way to
increase or
decrease the relative distance of the powerstroke nodes from
main
path. In essence it would be like increasing or decreasing the
width
of the powerstroke. As an example I recorded my screen using a variable brush tool in Illustrator. It reads the pen pressure
and
applies it to the stroke, but also allows that stroke to be
increases
or decreased.
Screen capture example Video: https://youtu.be/u78JlGD9Y34
Example of the adobe brush tool simplify/fidelity options: http
s://yo
utu.be/iIW_oeUcO2E?t=144
That same tool in adobe also has settings to control/limit the
brush
size and shape. I've been utilizing mass, thinning and fixation
to
accomplish this effect in Inkscape.
https://youtu.be/iIW_oeUcO2E?t=97
I think that covers what I was originally asking about and
more.
Hopefully it was not too much. Thanks so much for all the hard
work
you have put into the program! I know this software is a lot
of work
and new features are no small thing. I am not really a
programmer so
I can't contribute to the effort that way, but if you have a
need or
desire to include a UX/UI designer I would be happy to help!
Manga line example that I did not draw:
If you got through the whole email, thanks for listening! -Nate
-- Nate
On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Jabier Arraiza <jabier.arraiza
@marke
r.es> wrote: > I wait he present to the list to reply. > > Cheers, Jabier. > > > On Mon, 2017-08-21 at 05:44 -0600, brynn wrote: > > > Hi Brynn. > > > > Great and easy to do. I could do if we want. The problem is
no
> > realtime > > preview, so you need to finish the path to see the variable > width. > > > > Maybe I can add a preview while drawing but this is more
complex.
> > > > Cheers, Jabier. > > ________________________________________________ > > > > Well I don't use this kind of feature myself. So I
couldn't say
> if > > the lack of > > live preview would be crippling. I'll try to get the
person who
> > posted the > > message to subscribe to the list, so he can give comments. > > > > How would it work? Would it add pink nodes where the
pressure is
> > greater? And > > then the artist drags them after the path is finished? Or
would
> the > > variable > > width be immediately evident when the path is finished? > > > > And it would only work with graphics tablets? > > > > One benefit for such a tool (it seems to me) would be that
the
> number > > of nodes > > probably would not build up so fast, as it does with
Calligraphy.
> > > > Thanks, Jabier. I'll try to get this guy to subscribe so
he can
> > discuss > > directly. > > > > All best,, > > brynn > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jabier Arraiza > > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 2:23 AM > > To: brynn ; Inkscape-Devel > > Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] pressure sensitivity for
Pencil
> tool > > using > > powerstroke? > > > -----------------------------------------------------------
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