Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2

7 Jun 2017

      I can see we are going around in circles here, so let's simplify:
Brynn, you want to set the default Inkscape install to switch each tool
back to some default value every time the user draws a new shape. Correct?
For me that's a "no", for reasons already discussed, and complained about
by others in this thread, irc, and other forums.
Those in favour of Brynn's modification, please do speak up though. I'll
continue to collect preferences and formulate solutions on another thread
to help along the conversation.
Thanks again Brynn for taking the time to explain.
-C
On 7 Jun 2017 12:49 a.m., "brynn" <brynn@...3133...> wrote:
...
Thanks Maren.
But don't you understand that changing the tool style for first time users
will not affect your tool style?  You like that?  You can use it.  Don't
force it on unsuspecting first time users.
Doesn't anyone understand that first time users will be many hours of
experience away from deciding whether they want "last used" or "own style"
for their tools? Can't we just make it simpler for them to get there,
without them getting so frustrated that they have to register a new account
in an unfamiliar forum, to ask for help over it?
Don't you understand that we already DO have to change the style of every
object after we draw it?  For those of use who don't want many identically
styled objects, we already do change it every time (well newbies, until
they learn other ways).  That wouldn't be anything new.  It's a non-issue!
(which is the one that you must be referring to, Brynn,
...
because I can't remember people asking for setting a fixed style for a
tool repeatedly),
Of course it is.  I never imagined other community members would wonder
what I'm talking about!
I understand that it's most healthy for the community, that we think and
act like there is no "we" and "they".  But the fact is that there is. (And
pretending it's not is not entirely healthy either.)  I honestly think that
most developers would be surprised to find out (a) how large the forum
community is, (b) how active our forums are, and (c) how many questions are
posted for them to answer, that they would actually find interesting, and
that we Can't answer.
Now that I think of it, the 2nd most common message I answer, is probably
when I have to explain that developers don't use forums, and that the user
will have to subscribe to the mailing list to contact developers.  Or else
I offer to post for them, and relay the answer.
Actually I just posted a new "sticky" topic the other day, related to this
(how to discuss potential new features and ultimately request them) to
shorten the amount of time it takes to answer, when I have to repeat it so
often.
Some day, Not in the remotely near future, maybe I'll try to address that
("we"/"they") in a serious way.  But not anytime soon!
All best,
brynn
-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2017 2:43 PM
To: inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2
Not sure if this adds anything valuable to the discussion, but I also
use 'last used style' on purpose, and I'm also among those who think
that if we made it 'this tool's own style' for each tool, it would drive
people mad to have to set it each time they draw something - esp. if
they do not know yet that this can be changed in the preferences.
What I could imagine, as a solution to our frequent 'objects are
invisible' issue (which is the one that you must be referring to, Brynn,
because I can't remember people asking for setting a fixed style for a
tool repeatedly), would perhaps be something like a small warning
triangle or message, that is visible in the status line, when you would
draw an object that wouldn't be visible at all, and that gives the
reason. Not sure if that would be too much visibility, but it would
provide a solution to the actual issue.
Maren
Am 06.06.2017 um 20:35 schrieb brynn:
...
Setting the default to fixed values for each tool has a high cost to
...
usability for all users.
No, it doesn't affect anyone except people installing Inkscape for the
first time.  Everyone else's preference file keeps them with all the
same prefs they've always had.  It wouldn't affect existing users at all!
Having to reset colour over and over is a workflow bottleneck that no
...
user should have to deal with, and may drive new users off without
asking any questions.
No, not at all.  People have to reset color over and over again
ALREADY!  I know some people have posted that they use the last used
style on purpose.  But I think it's probably a small percentage.
Personally, I've never wanted the next object I draw with a tool to have
the style of the last object.
But either way, people have to reset the color.  Whether it the tool's
own color, or it's the color of the last object, the color has to be
reset, the vast majority of the time.
Users should not have to learn something twice in inkscape just to
...
prevent new user questions.
Huh??
Thanks,
brynn
-----Original Message----- From: C R
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2017 9:42 AM
To: Brynn
Cc: Olof Bjarnason ; inkscape-devel ; Martin Owens ; J. F. Lemaire
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2
Everyone seems to be so resistant to the idea of changing all the tools
to "own style" for when a first time user opens Inkscape.
I don't understand why.
Because the questions you are seeing asked by new users are caused by a
number of factors that relate to how colour and transparency are chosen
and used in inkscape. In this thread we are considering all the factors
before deciding what to do so we can come up with the best solution, and
it's not clear that what you have proposed is the best solution. But we
agree that the way it works now is confusing, not only to new users, but
seasoned inkscape veterans as well.
But it won't solve the problem I've explained about.  It might reduce
them, but I doubt by much (if at all).
Setting the default to fixed values for each tool has a high cost to
usability for all users. Having to reset colour over and over is a
workflow bottleneck that no user should have to deal with, and may drive
new users off without asking any questions. The problems those users are
having can be solved with a unified solution that does not require a
"for new users only" approach. Users should not have to learn something
twice in inkscape just to prevent new user questions. Questions are a
natural part of the learning process. It's more of a concern that the
answer to the user question be a satisfying one that is easy to remember
and applies in a consistent way to the rest of inkscape's ux. changing a
default value to prevent questions is at best a bandaid for one
particular user problem. In UX you want to treat the cause of the
disease, not merely make one of the symptoms go away.
Patience is needed, as it's not a simple problem.
-C
And I don't understand why everyone seems so resistant.
Just to repeat myself.  This would ONLY affect first time users.  It's
not taking away anything from existing users.  And it would completely
prevent these messages that we have to answer.
Can someone explain the resistance?
It would be an adventure.....but if someone would tell me how, I'll make
the changes myself.  (Although they'd have to explain in so much detail,
they probably could do it themselves in that much time....)
Thanks,
brynn
-----Original Message----- From: C R
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2017 2:12 PM
To: brynn
Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; J. F. Lemaire ; Martin Owens ; Olof Bjarnason
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2
Hi brynn. I think maybe we were confused about what you wanted. Sorry
we guessed wrong. On the plus side, it opened up discussion of the
tools, and how styles are used/reused, and it seems no one likes how
it currently is very much - Which is why I'm making mockups of how it
could work. I'll try and do a video showing the steps for each option.
It's taking a lot of thought, and consideration of different
workflows, because the tools and how they function differ, so coming
up with a unified solution that makes everyone happy will take a bit
of time.
Can you advise in particular the workflow you are using - I think we
would benefit from an example or two. I'll try to get in touch with
you on irc this week to discuss it so we properly address your
problem.
Thanks for your patience!
-C
On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 6:45 AM, brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:
Hi Everyone,
      Sorry to have made that post just before I logged off for a day and
a
half.  Aside from being a little afraid of what the response might be, I
honestly didn't expect much response!
  Also honestly, I was totally lost with most of the discussion.  And

some of it, I can't even make a connection to what I asked.  It's almost
like my comment about holding onto something for 10 years, prompted
everyone
else to comment what they've been holding onto for years.  But I don't
think
it ever came back around to my question.
  Moving the tool style indicator, or the selected object indicator,

or
when Fill and Stroke is called up, or setting style before/after, etc.,
(if
I followed it all).....  Yikes, I'm totally lost!
  Changing whether we can set the style before or after drawing the

object won't solve the problem I'm having.  Not unless you somehow make it
impossible to draw first and choose style second.  And then you'll have
complaints from all the "old" users who have it in their workflow to draw
first, style second.
  I'll try to keep up with whatever mockups you come up with, and

offer
comments.
  But if I can just reiterate my original request (which doesn't

require a ui change afaik).  Please, can we make all the tools set for
"This
tool's own style" as the default?  I don't mean take away "Last Used
Style"
as an option (well, I was joking when I mentioned it).  I just mean, for
the
default document (which is what newbies use 99% of the time) can it start
with everything set for "...Own Style"?
  It would not require current users, who might be using "last style",

to go through and change everything, because their prefs file will keep
them
using whatever they already use.  This would ONLY affect newbies, and make
them less confused (and those of us who answer support requests, less
bothered!)
  Not that I know much about programming.  But what little I

understand
about how Inkscape works, it seems like it wouldn't take much time to make
this change.  Wouldn't it be just changing one thing, for each tool, in
the
default doc?  Or maybe it's a change in the original prefs file?
  Since I didn't hear any objections - not to what I asked anyway, I

guess I will make the feature request.
Thanks again,
brynn
PS -   (Re-titled this, in case of comments on my original request.)
-----Original Message----- From: Martin Owens
Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 7:51 AM
To: Olof Bjarnason ; C R
Cc: J. F. Lemaire ; inkscape-devel
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style
On Fri, 2017-06-02 at 11:01 +0200, Olof Bjarnason wrote:
Just trying to make this happen, and it won't happen if you do not
get buy in from some developer that has the time and energy to make
this happen...
This kind of UX is right in my wheelhouse. Please add me as principle
developer to work on the design. To which we can then test functionally
with users.
Best regards, Martin Owens

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