Re: [Inkscape-devel] pressure sensitivity for Pencil tool using powerstroke?

6 Sep 2017

      ...
That was a little bit changing the subject.  My point is that Inkscape is
not a paint program.
It's not a raster-paint program. These new brushes will (and have
already) added some vector painting functionality to it.
...
They would be expecting the same thing from a vector
brush that they get (or can do) with a raster brush.
"They" (new users) expect all sorts of things. Once you get to know a
vector editing program, you don't expect a 1 to 1 translation of
raster to vector.
...
Inkscape is not a
paint program.
And yet, we are adding brushes. :)
...
and I would not be happy with a bigger opportunity for
confusion about that.
Changing the name will have no effect on the confusion. Call it
something else (even though it looks like a brush stroke), and you'll
still get the same questions: Why don't my colours mix?
...
We in the support areas already deal with the raster
vs vector issue at least weekly (on average, although it tends to come in
waves).
And you point them to the FAQ on raster vs vector. Why can't this be
done with raster vs. vector brushes?
...
So if it's called something besides "brush" it would reduce this confusion.
I really don't think so. If the confusion is about raster vs vector,
changing a name I'd expect will make no difference at all.
...
to do these things in the near future.
...
Really?  It's going to be possible to convert a raster brush to a vector
brush? And make it work and look the same?  ("I imported my brush into
Inkscape, but it doesn't work right!" "Inkscape broke my brush!")
Don't know that, but I do know ways in which some conversion can be
done. Maybe the result will not be good enough for some, maybe it's
the best thing in the world. Maybe it will make GIMP's low-res brushes
even better. Who knows.... but why don't we wait and see? :)
...
...
Also, when people do compare, we can immediately point out the
advantages of Inkscape vector brushes vs. GIMP brushes - just have
them zoom in. :) They'll get it right away.
"we"??  I'll let you write the FAQ item which will certainly be needed, even
if it were called something different from "brushes".
...
You aren't seriously suggesting that we can explain the difference between
raster and vector by telling users to zoom in?  Even the most simplified
version (of the webpage we've been needing for so long) would have 4 bullet
points (although it ranges up to 10, depending who you talk to).
So we don't have a FAQ entry for this... yes, I'll be happy to help
there Brynn. :)
And (regarding the zoom) yes. It's quite common to explain vector vs
raster this way, both online tutorials and in graphics classrooms.
When vector and raster was first explained to me very early in my
graphics education, it helped to show a section of curve in raster at
400% and vector at 400% so you can see the pixel edge. I've seen
countless instances of this all over the internet... in fact I've
never seen one that didn't use zooming in to the edge as an example.
People tend to get that right away, because they've noticed the pixels
before, and they are annoying. :) They likely have never considered
that you can zoom in to 400% on vector shapes and still have a smooth
edge. That's a big eye-opener, and shows the power of vector over
raster images.
In GIMP, many of the brushes aren't high enough resolution for larger
brushes... Inkscape brushes would not have this issue. So we have an
opportunity to show the advantages (as well as disadvantages) of
vector brushes over regular raster brushes.
...
The thing is, they won't just compare.  They won't post something like "I
noticed something is different.  Why?"  They'll post things like the
examples I've given.  They will think something is broken.
I'll include it in the raster vs vector FAQ entry if it turns out to
be that big of a deal. Converting raster images to vector is also
possible in Inkscape, so it's not even outside the scope of what
Inkscape does. If out of our millions of users, you answer one
question a week about raster vs vector as you've indicated, I'd
classify that as "not a big deal". :)
Just part of the learning process.
-C
...
-----Original Message----- From: C R
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2017 6:06 AM
To: brynn
Cc: Jabiertxo Arraiza Cenoz ; inkscape-devel
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] pressure sensitivity for Pencil tool using
powerstroke?
...
Well, I'm just thinking of it in terms of providing support.  If they are
called brushes, then pretty soon, we're getting messages like "your
brushes
are crap, why don't you make them work like all the other  brushes in the
world".
If they say that, at least we'd know what they are talking about.
That as apposed to "The stroke is crap!" - Which could be any one of a
hundred non-brush related problems. :)
...
"Why don't you have a so and so brush, like all the other paint
programs?"
We don't want wishlist items anymore? Also, would be a great place to
put custom brushes. Currently, our users have to jump through some
invisible hoops to get a shape to flow like a brush stroke. This has
needed a proper dialogue for a while, and this is the perfect
opportunity to give it one.
...
"Why can't I import the brush I made in GIMP into Inkscape?"
And etc.  (We actually had the latter question in a forum, a few years
ago!)
The thing is, with Jabier's brush system, you may be actually be able
to do these things in the near future.
If we make up new names for things just to prevent comparisons and
user questions, we sacrifice discover-ability, and also wishlist items
that make the brush system more versatile and easier to use.
No doubt we get all sorts of questions about raster transformations
from people who are new to a vector editor. This is not a good enough
reason to change common terminology between the programs, it is a good
opportunity to educate people on the differences between vector and
raster editors.
A vector brush is still a brush, just as a raster brush is still a
brush. The functionality is identical to the user, and so should the
terminology.
Also, when people do compare, we can immediately point out the
advantages of Inkscape vector brushes vs. GIMP brushes - just have
them zoom in. :) They'll get it right away.
-C
...
If we call them something that more reflects the vector-ness, then we
don't
have that problem.  I'm afraid that people will compare them to raster
brushes, and they just aren't the same.  They're similar, but so very
different, at the same time.
In many other areas, Inkscape has created its own terminology...or used
SVG
terminology.  Inkscape calls "nodes" what other programs call "points", as
a
prominent example.  Inkscape calls 'paths" what other programs call
"lines".
I wonder if we could look to SVG (standards) to guide the
terminology...somehow?
All best,
brynn
-----Original Message----- From: C R
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2017 1:31 AM
To: brynn
Cc: Jabiertxo Arraiza Cenoz ; inkscape-devel
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] pressure sensitivity for Pencil tool using
powerstroke?
...
Does Inkscape really strive to be a vector-brush drawing program??  Isn't
that like saying "vector paint program"?
Inkscape is a vector drawing program. In previous threads, we expanded
the term "drawing" to encompass, well pretty much anything. :)
Why limit Inkscape's vector capabilities because it doesn't fit a
particular definition of "drawing"?
...
I've really seen the term brush used more and more lately, in reference
to
Inkscape, and in what I consider to be an inappropriate way.  Inkscape
can
achieve brush-like effects, with great effort.  But unless there really
is
some plan to actually add true brushes, and develop Inkscape in that
direction, I think we should discourage using that term.  It gives a
false
impression of Inkscape capabilities, imo.
The term "brush" is used because that's what the effect is. Inkscape
already has vector brushes in the Caligraphy tool. It's important to
use terminology that users are familiar with. Saves a lot of
explaining, just to be told "well, why didn't you call them brushes"
like everyone else? :) I brush (in all graphics programs) refers to a
shape applied along a path with added transformations. The effect is
that it acts like a brush, so the term brush is appropriate here as
well as in other drawing/painting/editing applications.
...
As it's referred to on the Pen and Pencil control bars, I think Shapes is
better, referring to the profile of the stroke.  Shapes, or maybe even
"stroke profiles".
Or we could call them "brushes" like everyone else does, and spare the
user the technical jargon we make up. :)
Our "stroke profiles" are analogous to "brushes" in other programs. So
when people ask "does Inkscape have brushes?" And we hit them with
"no, but we have stroke profiles." Yea... let's just call them brushes
like everyone else does, for the same reasons everyone else does. :)
...
Referring to a different comment in this thread, I didn't intend to
"bash"
GIMP earlier.
That comment was in regard to the remark "There's something good in
GIMP?" - Don't do this, people. GIMP project are our friends, and
you'll make none here by belittling another projects hard work.
...
I just dislike the interface, as a personal opinion.
We are not talking about GIMP's whole interface (as if one could write
it all off as "bad" or something).
Someone is mocking up wireframes based on how GIMP handles brushes.
That's what sparked the GIMP comments... and people keep derailing the
conversation.
GIMP's entire user interface is not within the scope of this thread.
Let's see where the wireframes go before denouncing it because it
might look kinda like how GIMP does it.
...
There's
every chance it's an effective interface for a raster program.  But I
don't
think it would be effective for Inkscape.
No one is suggesting copying GIMPs whole user interface. :P
...
What's wrong with the Shapes
menu, to hold the stroke profiles or so-called "brushes"?
"Where are the brushes in Inkscape"
"They are in the 'Shapes Menu'."
Nah, not feeling it, personally. ;) Most everything in Inkscape is a
"shape". Say "Brush", and people will know what you are talking about
right away.
No need to reinvent the wheel here from my perspective. We could call
them "vector brushes" like Krita does. It's important to stick with
terms that are analogous to real life terms that are similar to the
functionality. It makes learning and recall easier, and thus more
intuitive.
-C
...
All best,
brynn
-----Original Message----- From: C R
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 2:39 AM
To: Jabiertxo Arraiza Cenoz
Cc: inkscape-devel
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] pressure sensitivity for Pencil tool using
powerstroke?
I think breaking out the brushes and effects into a dialog of its own
is really the only way to go. I've not encountered a single graphics
program out there which handles many (potentially customisable)
brushes that doesn't have it's own side-panel/dock for the brush
pallet. It really MUST happen at some point for Inkscape to become a
better vector-brush drawing program.
Thanks to all for the hard work on this, esp Jabier!
-C
On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 11:53 PM, Jabier Arraiza
<jabier.arraiza@...2893...> wrote:
...
Hi all.
As far I undertand boolop union result is more for the caligraphic tool
than for the pencil tool.
Anyway we have a feature that Nate like too much and is not pressent in
Calligrapic tool is the min/max pressure. This is easy to do but we
need more space on the toolbox because it not fit into my monitor size.
Is not the only tool that have this problem and when the program grow
the problem become bigger. Also because the lack of space we need to
compress the widgets and make hard to undertand. The cuestion:
¿What about removing this toolbar by a tool dialog in the right like
for example Gimp, that autoupdate controls between tool changes?
This give "unlimited" size to expand tools. Also I'm in favor of a
expander at the end of this dialog for advanced users or not all day
use features.
Finaly seems easy boolop union with previous strokes in calligraphic
tool.
Cheers, Jabier.
On Mon, 2017-08-28 at 13:13 -0400, Nate Yungkans wrote:
...
Hi! I figure I'll just throw myself in here.
It sounds like you are requesting something like the Adobe
illustrator blob brush. Essentially this tool is like Inkscape's
calligraphy brush with an auto merge feature. Which could in fact be
a handy feature. In illustrator you can paint with the brush and the
new shapes merge it with a selection or a layer or maybe even all.
The same effect can be achieved by using Inkscape's calligraphy brush
and then merging the shapes. All the blob brush does is make that
automatic.
The really cool thing you added to the pencil that would also be cool
on the calligraphy tool is the Max/min size.
Illustrator Bob brush tool: https://youtu.be/4bhltsqSp_0
Am I correct in my interpretation of what you are asking for Miguel?
On Aug 27, 2017 10:12 PM, "Miguel Lopez" <reptillia39@...3425...>
wrote:
...
I like the work that's being done, by the way, I have a suggestion.
You know how you can spray objects and have the path joined
together, right? I'd like to see the option to do that while
stroking.
On 8/27/2017 6:38 PM, Ivan Louette via Inkscape-devel wrote:
> Very convincing ! And there we have even more control than
> Expression for simple lines !
>
> ivan
>
>
> Le Lundi 28 août 2017 0h27, Jabier Arraiza <jabier.arraiza@...233.....3394...
> .es> a écrit :
>
>
> Hi all!
>
> This week I do a similar implementation and mark it for merge
> request.
> Here are a preview of the new branch running:
> https://archive.org/details/inkscapepencilpressure
>
> All the best, Jabier.
>
>
>
> On Mon, 2017-08-21 at 22:36 -0400, Nate Yungkans wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > I'm Nate, the one who posted in the forums. I started just
> asking if
> > the feature existed, but was told I should ask for it as a
> feature so
> > here I am. Hello :)  First I wanted to say I love the program
> and
> > find the features super useful. The powerstroke is one of the
> coolest
> > features and I am having a lot of fun playing around with it. I
> have
> > been an Adobe Illustrator for years but I am already enjoying
> > inkscape more. Anyways, the reason I was asking about pressure
> > sensitive line work is because it could be a huge time saver
> for
> > manga art(or any extensive line art) where line work is
> incredibly
> > important. It seems like all of the features actually exist in
> > Inkscape, but not together as a tool. The calligraphy pen works
> > nicely with pressure and the mass(for precision), but if the
> line
> > needs to be edited in an meaningful way, they basically need to
> be
> > redrawn.
> >
> > The powerstroke feature is awesome, but in its current state
> may
> > require a lot of manual setting line thicknesses if there are a
> lot
> > of complicated lines. Being able to control the stroke width
> via
> > pressure would make it a very smooth process. Unfortunately it
> would
> > not be as useful without a preview as you draw. Maybe it could
> use
> > the same preview the calligraphy tool uses? Even if that isn't
> a 100%
> > representation of the final product, it would guide the user to
> > understand how much pressure they are applying.
> >
> > I asked about an auto simplify feature not only for the benefit
> of
> > reducing the number of nodes, but also in aiding fast smoothed
> line
> > work. I see that a line drawn with a pencil has a smoothing
> feature,
> > maybe that can also be applied to the powerstroke outer lines
> as
> > well; or maybe the pressure has an adjustable sample rate?
> >
> > Additionally, it would be fantastic if there was a way to
> increase or
> > decrease the relative distance of the powerstroke nodes from
> main
> > path. In essence it would be like increasing or decreasing the
> width
> > of the powerstroke. As an example I recorded my screen using a
> > variable brush tool in Illustrator. It reads the pen pressure
> and
> > applies it to the stroke, but also allows that stroke to be
> increases
> > or decreased.
> >
> > Screen capture example Video: https://youtu.be/u78JlGD9Y34
> >
> > Example of the adobe brush tool simplify/fidelity options: http
> s://yo
> > utu.be/iIW_oeUcO2E?t=144
> >
> > That same tool in adobe also has settings to control/limit the
> brush
> > size and shape. I've been utilizing mass, thinning and fixation
> to
> > accomplish this effect in Inkscape.
> >
> >
> >  https://youtu.be/iIW_oeUcO2E?t=97
> >
> >
> > I think that covers what I was originally asking about and
> more.
> > Hopefully it was not too much. Thanks so much for all the hard
> work
> > you have put into the program!  I know this software is a lot
> of work
> > and new features are no small thing. I am not really a
> programmer so
> > I can't contribute to the effort that way, but if you have a
> need or
> > desire to include a UX/UI designer I would be happy to help!
> >
> > Manga line example that I did not draw:
> >
> >
> > If you got through the whole email, thanks for listening!
> > -Nate
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Nate
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Jabier Arraiza <jabier.arraiza
> @marke
> > r.es> wrote:
> > > I wait he present to the list to reply.
> > >
> > > Cheers, Jabier.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, 2017-08-21 at 05:44 -0600, brynn wrote:
> > > > > Hi Brynn.
> > > >
> > > > Great and easy to do. I could do if we want. The problem is
> no
> > > > realtime
> > > > preview, so you need to finish the path to see the variable
> > > width.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe I can add a preview while drawing but this is more
> complex.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers, Jabier.
> > > > ________________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > Well I don't use this kind of feature myself.  So I
> couldn't say
> > > if
> > > > the lack of
> > > > live preview would be crippling.  I'll try to get the
> person who
> > > > posted the
> > > > message to subscribe to the list, so he can give comments.
> > > >
> > > > How would it work?  Would it add pink nodes where the
> pressure is
> > > > greater?  And
> > > > then the artist drags them after the path is finished?  Or
> would
> > > the
> > > > variable
> > > > width be immediately evident when the path is finished?
> > > >
> > > > And it would only work with graphics tablets?
> > > >
> > > > One benefit for such a tool (it seems to me) would be that
> the
> > > number
> > > > of nodes
> > > > probably would not build up so fast, as it does with
> Calligraphy.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, Jabier.  I'll try to get this guy to subscribe so
> he can
> > > > discuss
> > > > directly.
> > > >
> > > > All best,,
> > > > brynn
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Jabier Arraiza
> > > > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 2:23 AM
> > > > To: brynn ; Inkscape-Devel
> > > > Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] pressure sensitivity for
> Pencil
> > > tool
> > > > using
> > > > powerstroke?
> > > >
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> > >
> >
> >
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