Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2

Hi C R, I'll log on to IRC shortly (don't normally use it).

The workflow is draw first, style second. (Personally I like that routine much better than choosing the style first. So when you're making changes, please make it optional, so that those who prefer the "old" way, can continue without altering their personal routines.)

So draw a rectangle. Yikes, nothing's there. I can see the dotted lines and arrows (i.e. bounding box and selection handles), but my rectangle isn't there.

Why isn't it there? Because the last time you drew a rectangle, eventually you made it completely transparent. Now, every rectangle you draw will be transparent, until you change it. Oh, you changed it to blue? Now every rectangle will be blue, until you change one.

As I said before, it's easily the most asked question, both in forums and LP Answers. And in my opinion, well, a ridiculous feature. Most newbies pick up Inkscape, and they're happily clicking away, not thinking about anything, but marvelling over the awesome program. An hour later, or a day, or a week, and they don't remember that they were playing with either the alpha channel or Opacity slider. And also in my opinion, it's not intuitive that whatever change I make is permanent for the tool.

What's the solution? Explain to everyone how to change the style settings for all their tools. A few years ago, I finally wrote a tutorial. But it doesn't stop the questions from coming. It just make the answer shorter (link to the tutorial).

Offering an option to style first, draw second is fine. But that won't stop the questions coming either. Some Inkscape newbies are computer graphics newbies, and have no idea that they are supposed to choose the color first.

To me, it's counterintuitive. I actually started with GIMP as my first graphics experience. After hours trying to give a fill color to something, I finally had to look up the manual. It may be the industry standard, but it's counterintuitive.

Using Inkscape is so very much like drawing on paper with a pen or pencil. So (shall we say virgin newbies or something?) we don't pick up a crayon or colored pencil, and color in the square before we draw the square. We draw the square first, and color it second.

Anyway, I'm rather shocked that the mailing list crowd doesn't understand what the problem is. I guess it underscores once again how far removed many developers are, from the user community.

Would it be such a hard thing to do, to make the default doc have all the tools set for "own style"?

Thanks again, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2017 2:12 PM To: brynn Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; J. F. Lemaire ; Martin Owens ; Olof Bjarnason Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style #2

Hi brynn. I think maybe we were confused about what you wanted. Sorry we guessed wrong. On the plus side, it opened up discussion of the tools, and how styles are used/reused, and it seems no one likes how it currently is very much - Which is why I'm making mockups of how it could work. I'll try and do a video showing the steps for each option.

It's taking a lot of thought, and consideration of different workflows, because the tools and how they function differ, so coming up with a unified solution that makes everyone happy will take a bit of time.

Can you advise in particular the workflow you are using - I think we would benefit from an example or two. I'll try to get in touch with you on irc this week to discuss it so we properly address your problem.

Thanks for your patience! -C

On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 6:45 AM, brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:

Hi Everyone, Sorry to have made that post just before I logged off for a day and a half. Aside from being a little afraid of what the response might be, I honestly didn't expect much response!

   Also honestly, I was totally lost with most of the discussion.  And

some of it, I can't even make a connection to what I asked. It's almost like my comment about holding onto something for 10 years, prompted everyone else to comment what they've been holding onto for years. But I don't think it ever came back around to my question.

   Moving the tool style indicator, or the selected object indicator, or

when Fill and Stroke is called up, or setting style before/after, etc., (if I followed it all)..... Yikes, I'm totally lost!

   Changing whether we can set the style before or after drawing the

object won't solve the problem I'm having. Not unless you somehow make it impossible to draw first and choose style second. And then you'll have complaints from all the "old" users who have it in their workflow to draw first, style second.

   I'll try to keep up with whatever mockups you come up with, and offer

comments.

   But if I can just reiterate my original request (which doesn't

require a ui change afaik). Please, can we make all the tools set for "This tool's own style" as the default? I don't mean take away "Last Used Style" as an option (well, I was joking when I mentioned it). I just mean, for the default document (which is what newbies use 99% of the time) can it start with everything set for "...Own Style"?

   It would not require current users, who might be using "last style",

to go through and change everything, because their prefs file will keep them using whatever they already use. This would ONLY affect newbies, and make them less confused (and those of us who answer support requests, less bothered!)

   Not that I know much about programming.  But what little I understand

about how Inkscape works, it seems like it wouldn't take much time to make this change. Wouldn't it be just changing one thing, for each tool, in the default doc? Or maybe it's a change in the original prefs file?

   Since I didn't hear any objections - not to what I asked anyway, I

guess I will make the feature request.

Thanks again, brynn

PS - (Re-titled this, in case of comments on my original request.)

-----Original Message----- From: Martin Owens Sent: Friday, June 02, 2017 7:51 AM To: Olof Bjarnason ; C R Cc: J. F. Lemaire ; inkscape-devel Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Re: last used style

On Fri, 2017-06-02 at 11:01 +0200, Olof Bjarnason wrote:

...

Just trying to make this happen, and it won't happen if you do not get buy in from some developer that has the time and energy to make this happen...

This kind of UX is right in my wheelhouse. Please add me as principle developer to work on the design. To which we can then test functionally with users.

Best regards, Martin Owens

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