Hi,
At the risk of starting a holy war... :)
A blueprint by Oliver Jan Krylow:
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/inkscape/+spec/ui-improv http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/UI_improvements
We have a bunch a blueprint in the queue. Would be nice to go through them and at least comment in a sensible way so that there was feedback.
Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org
As a whole - this mock-up is an improvement of actual situation. The ideal situation is to have a panel with both Shape and Line color modes view ..in the same time.
simple testcase : many shapes in few. each shape and each corresponding line must change the gradient fill.
A : with actual panel this task will take long because of tab switching
B : with actual Oliver mock-up we can eliminate a click or two (for tab and color mode) so we can earn some seconds.
C : with an ideal panel which will let us to have a look(and change values) at both fill types/ color values of Lines and Shapes in the sametime whitout a mouse click to switch from shape to line mode - probably that task will be accomplished in the shortest time.
... I will vote for C in future ..now I vote for B solution ..C still need a good solution regarding the + space that C version will need.
2010/9/2 Alexandre Prokoudine <alexandre.prokoudine@...400...>:
Hi,
At the risk of starting a holy war... :)
A blueprint by Oliver Jan Krylow:
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/inkscape/+spec/ui-improv http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/UI_improvements
We have a bunch a blueprint in the queue. Would be nice to go through them and at least comment in a sensible way so that there was feedback.
Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org
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On 2010-09-01 21:51, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
... We have a bunch a blueprint in the queue. Would be nice to go through them and at least comment in a sensible way so that there was feedback.
I actually tried a rough implementation of something like this based on an earlier blueprint but got bogged mainly on two issues (as far as I can remember):
1. How to create a nice way to switch between stroke and fill color (technically, I sort of like the indicator in the mock up but have no idea whatsoever how to implement it in gtk).
2. I got into trouble with the marker combo boxes. What I'd like is a combobox with two columns, of which only one is shown when it's not dropped down (this would contain the preview, the second column the name). Alternatively I'd like to be able to say that the combo boxes have to fill the space given to them (instead of enlarging the containing box).
If someone can help with these issues (and similar gtk related issues I might encounter) I wouldn't mind having a go at it, as I think it would help enormously to be able to use such a dialog in practice.
Also, as the mock up misses some properties the dialog is still a bit large in reality (but I guess that could be improved).
On 9/2/10, Jasper van de Gronde wrote:
I actually tried a rough implementation of something like this based on an earlier blueprint but got bogged mainly on two issues (as far as I can remember):
- How to create a nice way to switch between stroke and fill color
(technically, I sort of like the indicator in the mock up but have no idea whatsoever how to implement it in gtk).
Some code could be harvested from GIMP, no?
- I got into trouble with the marker combo boxes. What I'd like is a
combobox with two columns, of which only one is shown when it's not dropped down (this would contain the preview, the second column the name). Alternatively I'd like to be able to say that the combo boxes have to fill the space given to them (instead of enlarging the containing box).
Again, why not use GIMP's widget that has a button with preview? When you click it, you can switch between list view and thumbnail view, zoom in and out etc. You can place three such button in one row (beginning, middle and end markers) instead of three rows right now.
Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org
On Sep 2, 2010, at 7:44 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
Some code could be harvested from GIMP, no?
No. At least not as much as one might expect.
One main problem is that the GIMP code is based around the complex GIMP internals (such as their "context" objects) and it is hard to bring code over without large portions of the codebase.
Another main problem is that GIMP is still C while Inkscape is C++ and GtkMM. We really want to keep to the newer language and binding as they give a lot more functionality in a lot less code.
On the other hand, one can look at their code for ideas. But implementing something clean in C++ from the beginning will be less work and function better than copying wholesale and then having to rework most of it.
Alexandre Prokoudine <alexandre.prokoudine@...360...> writes:
A blueprint by Oliver Jan Krylow:
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/inkscape/+spec/ui-improv http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/UI_improvements
Interesting blueprint. I'm willing to create the grayscale set if there's an agreement that it could be added. As for simplifying the shape and color of the existing set, judging by the variety of opinions over the tool icons when I helped with the tango set, it'll be very difficult to reach a consensus. But it can't hurt to have a little... let's not say "contest" but "request for proposals" in which artists could try their hand at a new icon set for the toolbox. Who knows? Perhaps someone will come up with a really polished good looking set that everybody will like.
as for maximizing the working area: I agree with the need, not sure about the proposed solution. I think first and formost something must be done about the size of the widgets. I work on both Windows and Ubuntu and in both the widgets are way oversized, the panels too wide. Now, letting the user customize the UI is always a bonus, but if there's no good default, it's just shifting the responsibility from the developer to the user.
I do like some things about Pablo Lzardo's mockup which is attached to the blueprint. I think the overlapping UI would be a step back, but I like the fact that stroke options are visible at the same time as color options, and the options are nicely concentrated and laid out. Adobe apps have this type of panel where the most common options are always visible, and the less common ones (such as end/center markers) can be expanded by a down arrow on the tab header. That might also be a good idea.
The self-documenting UI: if you're considering this and are looking for real-world examples, you might want to check out the latest version of 3ds max. There's this new ribbon-like thing below the menu (only for a very specific set of mesh editing functions,. for some reason). If you hover over one of the ribbon's icons for a couple of seconds, you'll see a normal tool tip. But, if you keep you mouse for a couple seconds more, the tool tip expands into a longer explanation along with keyboard shortcut, tips, even screenshots. It's a really nice, helpful system. I'm not sure if it's necessary for Inkscape - seems like an overkill. Still, if anyone's looking for an implementation to draw inspiration from it's there.
Lastly I want to remind you that the most important feature missing in the current UI is the ability of making the UI stick between sessions. Open panels should still be open, and in their last set size, the next time you open inkscape.
I wish to strongly disagree about combining the fill and stroke dialogs. I recently started to use a "professional" proprietary software suite for a new job (no choice for me) and have had to learn the interface, some elements which this mockup is trying to imitate.
I absolutely despise the fill/stroke switcher concept. Fill and stroke, while similar, are two entirely separate things. I don't think it makes any sense for them to share the same space. It's really unintuitive, in my opinion. (I don't think I can express my dislike strongly enough without cursing ;) It took me a good bit of time just to figure that out, and have yet to get used to it after several months of active use. And it's a pain to have to pay attention to which of the icons is actually in front, rather than just seeing which tab is active by a quick glance.
It may seem strange, but in this case I definitely prefer having a tab with text explaining what exactly I'm editing.
Besides, I don't think getting rid of the tabs is saving any space; rather, it's adding more used space by adding the stroke styles beneath the whole thing.
I think that whole concept would be a huge step backwards.
JF
On 09/02/2010 01:59 PM, Michael Grosberg wrote:
Alexandre Prokoudine<alexandre.prokoudine@...360...> writes:
A blueprint by Oliver Jan Krylow:
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/inkscape/+spec/ui-improv http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/UI_improvements
Interesting blueprint. I'm willing to create the grayscale set if there's an agreement that it could be added. As for simplifying the shape and color of the existing set, judging by the variety of opinions over the tool icons when I helped with the tango set, it'll be very difficult to reach a consensus. But it can't hurt to have a little... let's not say "contest" but "request for proposals" in which artists could try their hand at a new icon set for the toolbox. Who knows? Perhaps someone will come up with a really polished good looking set that everybody will like.
as for maximizing the working area: I agree with the need, not sure about the proposed solution. I think first and formost something must be done about the size of the widgets. I work on both Windows and Ubuntu and in both the widgets are way oversized, the panels too wide. Now, letting the user customize the UI is always a bonus, but if there's no good default, it's just shifting the responsibility from the developer to the user.
I do like some things about Pablo Lzardo's mockup which is attached to the blueprint. I think the overlapping UI would be a step back, but I like the fact that stroke options are visible at the same time as color options, and the options are nicely concentrated and laid out. Adobe apps have this type of panel where the most common options are always visible, and the less common ones (such as end/center markers) can be expanded by a down arrow on the tab header. That might also be a good idea.
The self-documenting UI: if you're considering this and are looking for real-world examples, you might want to check out the latest version of 3ds max. There's this new ribbon-like thing below the menu (only for a very specific set of mesh editing functions,. for some reason). If you hover over one of the ribbon's icons for a couple of seconds, you'll see a normal tool tip. But, if you keep you mouse for a couple seconds more, the tool tip expands into a longer explanation along with keyboard shortcut, tips, even screenshots. It's a really nice, helpful system. I'm not sure if it's necessary for Inkscape - seems like an overkill. Still, if anyone's looking for an implementation to draw inspiration from it's there.
Lastly I want to remind you that the most important feature missing in the current UI is the ability of making the UI stick between sessions. Open panels should still be open, and in their last set size, the next time you open inkscape.
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On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Joshua Facemyer <jfacemyer@...400...> wrote:
I wish to strongly disagree about combining the fill and stroke dialogs. I recently started to use a "professional" proprietary software suite for a new job (no choice for me) and have had to learn the interface, some elements which this mockup is trying to imitate.
You can Adobe-bash all you want to but the Fill-Stroke in Illustrator is vastly easier to use than current Inkscape. The rest of the interface might in fact be a nightmare, but:
'x' key - toggle fill/stroke active 'X' key - switch fill/stroke '/' key - remove either fill or stroke (whichever is active) Perhaps these keys will help you with your new job ;) Also lynda.com offers pretty good (paid) tutorials on AI, and there are tons of free ones out there.
Not to mention AI F/S parallels the FG/BG concept used by GIMP, Photoshop, et al.
Don't get me wrong - Inkscape does quite a few things better than AI. However, F/S is not one of them, Way, way too many steps involved to manage the appearance of an object. All IMO of course :)
Chris
I just don't get how it's so much less work - I'm not ignorant by any means, and I easily learn new software, so I'm pretty sure that I haven't missed much. But I haven't found Inkscape to be any more cumbersome to use Fill and Stroke. Quite the opposite.
(BTW, the reason I don't generally use tutorials is that I figure things out very quickly and only need to look up a few tricky parts here and there - the fact that this had me baffled, for however short a time, does not have me convinced that Adobe should be mimicked in this regard - certainly wasn't user friendly, as far as I am concerned.)
Additionally (on a related note), selecting colors in Inkscape is vastly easier, in my opinion, than in Adobeware. (I'm looking forward to improved swatching, however, in Inkscape.)
If keyboard shortcuts are the only thing you're saying is better, why don't we just add similar shortcuts? Or maybe do it better(er) somehow?
My intention is not to start a flame war - simply to strongly urge that we don't go that direction, because there has got to be a better way, even if we just adapt what we already have.
JF
On 09/02/2010 05:49 PM, Chris Mohler wrote:
On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Joshua Facemyer<jfacemyer@...400...> wrote:
I wish to strongly disagree about combining the fill and stroke dialogs. I recently started to use a "professional" proprietary software suite for a new job (no choice for me) and have had to learn the interface, some elements which this mockup is trying to imitate.
You can Adobe-bash all you want to but the Fill-Stroke in Illustrator is vastly easier to use than current Inkscape. The rest of the interface might in fact be a nightmare, but:
'x' key - toggle fill/stroke active 'X' key - switch fill/stroke '/' key - remove either fill or stroke (whichever is active) Perhaps these keys will help you with your new job ;) Also lynda.com offers pretty good (paid) tutorials on AI, and there are tons of free ones out there.
Not to mention AI F/S parallels the FG/BG concept used by GIMP, Photoshop, et al.
Don't get me wrong - Inkscape does quite a few things better than AI. However, F/S is not one of them, Way, way too many steps involved to manage the appearance of an object. All IMO of course :)
Chris
On 9/3/10, Joshua Facemyer wrote:
I just don't get how it's so much less work - I'm not ignorant by any means, and I easily learn new software, so I'm pretty sure that I haven't missed much. But I haven't found Inkscape to be any more cumbersome to use Fill and Stroke. Quite the opposite.
You know, one thing I quite like about Illustrator is its Appearance palette: all things related to style of an object are in one place, easy to tweak. What *we* have instead is:
- fill and stroke indicators in one place - hint on SVG filter applied further to the right in status bar, in the middle of other things
We don't have to replicate other app's features, but we could learn from them, no? :)
If keyboard shortcuts are the only thing you're saying is better, why don't we just add similar shortcuts?
X is taken by 3D Box tool.
Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org
Well, the Holy war was prophesied by Alexandre... :) But I will try to give some insight. In some of the side research I did at the uni, it turned out that actually Illustrator has it completely wrong. Truly, so wrong to the point of expression Joshua Facemyer is reluctant to write ;) ... I've been Illustrator user since v7, uhhh... but I can stop... so, please, no hard feelings ;).
a) The first find was that the appearance of the fill/outline icon indicator in Illustrator suggests those are Front and back colors, which is not the case. They don't have anything to do with front and back colors... Actually, that icon seems to be an in-house rip-off of the Photoshop icon for a real front/back color icon indicator. Maybe someone was thinking that would make a 'consistent UI'?
b) The other thing is that it is unclear why they decided to put 2 color spaces on that icon indicator and then make users switch them. In most cases it was observed that users use, well more than two colors and that the majority of graphics do not have a need to switch those two colors, but to pick the RIGHT color :) As it is now, in Illustrator you have only a 50-50 chance to use the right color, no matter how much you try ;)... So a typical scenario was: User needs some other color, so she/he picks the color. Starts drawing. Ayayay! the outline and the fill are switched! (here comes Joshua's expletive)... So, Adobe provided shortcuts that Chris mentioned, to somehow deal with those two colors, but it feels like a dirty fix for something that seems to be a really lousy UI design. There should not have been a possibility for user to make that error in the first place.
c) one more problem, maybe not relevant so much here, is... that the outline/fill icon indicator and the color mixer often are quite distanced from each other in real world situations. So, you mix color on one end of the screen, click on it to choose it, and the indicator for that change is somewhere else, on a toolbar! Almost no-one bothers to double check to see if the front/back color order is OK. And besides, it's tedious to make such a check every time. The reason is that the toolbar is often moved around, so we don't have a unique place of reference. (Admittedly, advanced users double-click on the outline/fill indicator icon directly to access the color panel, but it's still a bit messy. And, also there is a color indicator on the mixer, but it lacks some functionality, so it gets ignored a lot, and renders one of those redundant.)
We all have some experience on how big companies are trying to make their products cheaper even to the point of jeopardizing the functionality and purpose. From my experience, the UI design departments are no exception. FLOSS has the freedom and capacity to use the good existing solutions and develop new, better ones. There is no need to always follow what the big guys do. ...
So, one really simple solution for the 'user awareness' of the loaded color would be to put the color indicator directly on the tool cursor. even a small patch not bigger than 4*4px would give enough visual feedback and get rid of a much bigger piece of screen somewhere else. For example, when you take the rectangle tool, the cursor icon on the lower right changes to indicate this tool choice, right? Why it wouldn't indicate the color, too? So that you can see: a red circle, or a green rectangle... It would be OK semantically, since the purpose of that little icon by the cursor is 'reference'.
Considering the UI suggestions shown, I really like all that was written in the Wiki, it is concise, exact and smart. The implementations are for a discussion, though. But knowing the 'possibilities' of gtk, they look very good, and a lot of work and thinking has been put in them. All the efforts are great. Speaking of gtk, excuse my ignorance, but is there anything we can do to make this gtk thingy better, or is it a done deal, you-get-what-you-get? Can we create new UI modules? Some modules more appropriate for the purposes here? Or can we switch to something less restrictive? Will this question start a holy war, too? ;) If yes, can you ignore the question? :)
About the shortcuts, there is something that is closer to the way the people think or correlate with the tools and functions. Human brain seems to work much better with full words :) or even with syllables than 1 letter chunks. Words are much better mnemonics than 1 letter shortcuts. Blender 2.5 uses this fact with a beautiful implementation. Providing a meta-shortcut (tab or space or...) user has an access to a small 'command line' like text entry box where she/he can start typing the wanted tool or a function. Tools and functions that are contextually acceptable and that fit the typed letters, show up in a list below the text-entry box. mouse click on the right one activates the tool or a function. It might seem that it is slower to type a few letters than just one. That would be true, but in the long run, not true. How many shortcuts can you remember? And how many function and tool names can you remember? I'd bet more than shortcuts, right? Using meta-shortcut you can access all of them. That is where you save time. Another goodie is that the current shortcut approach and this meta-shortcut approach can coexist with no conflict. If you did not try it yet in Blender 2.5, please try! Just press space in the viewport and start typing... Smooth...
Cheers,
Alex.
On 2010-09-03 11:48, Aleksandar Kovac wrote:
...
So, one really simple solution for the 'user awareness' of the loaded color would be to put the color indicator directly on the tool cursor. even a small patch not bigger than 4*4px would give enough visual feedback and get rid of a much bigger piece of screen somewhere else. For example, when you take the rectangle tool, the cursor icon on the lower right changes to indicate this tool choice, right? Why it wouldn't indicate the color, too? So that you can see: a red circle, or a green rectangle... It would be OK semantically, since the purpose of that little icon by the cursor is 'reference'. ...
I actually liked this idea, as I've always been slightly surprised by the initial result whenever I start drawing something in Inkscape, and this would make that absolutely clear. So I've made an initial patch that implements this (if I missed a tool, it's easy to add one, just needs a small change to TOOL-context.cpp and some recoloring of cursor-TOOL.xpm).
I'm interested in people's experiences, so I've attached a patch and uploaded a Windows build to: http://home.hccnet.nl/th.v.d.gronde/inkscape-color-cursor.zip (just inkscape.exe, so backup your current inkscape.exe, extract the zip and your good to go)
One of the main glitches it currently has is that the "preview" doesn't change if you select a different color (you have to reselect the tool). Any ideas on fixing that would be appreciated (just reply to the devel list only).
I actually liked this idea, as I've always been slightly surprised by the initial result whenever I start drawing something in Inkscape, and this would make that absolutely clear. So I've made an initial patch that implements this (if I missed a tool, it's easy to add one, just needs a small change to TOOL-context.cpp and some recoloring of cursor-TOOL.xpm).
I'm interested in people's experiences, so I've attached a patch and uploaded a Windows build to: http://home.hccnet.nl/th.v.d.gronde/inkscape-color-cursor.zip (just inkscape.exe, so backup your current inkscape.exe, extract the zip and your good to go)
One of the main glitches it currently has is that the "preview" doesn't change if you select a different color (you have to reselect the tool). Any ideas on fixing that would be appreciated (just reply to the devel list only).
Wow! So fast. Magic! :) I would love to hear feedback, too. Especially, since I did not test it (mac...)
Alex
I agree - this would be a welcome improvement. I realize this data is available elsewhere, but this solution would save time and trouble looking for it, and help to avoid that "why is my new circle this color?" confusion.
I'm happy to see that you've worked on a patch. If I get a chance, I'd be happy to check this out on my work computer next week...
JF
On 09/03/2010 10:58 AM, Jasper van de Gronde wrote:
On 2010-09-03 11:48, Aleksandar Kovac wrote:
...
So, one really simple solution for the 'user awareness' of the loaded color would be to put the color indicator directly on the tool cursor. even a small patch not bigger than 4*4px would give enough visual feedback and get rid of a much bigger piece of screen somewhere else. For example, when you take the rectangle tool, the cursor icon on the lower right changes to indicate this tool choice, right? Why it wouldn't indicate the color, too? So that you can see: a red circle, or a green rectangle... It would be OK semantically, since the purpose of that little icon by the cursor is 'reference'. ...
I actually liked this idea, as I've always been slightly surprised by the initial result whenever I start drawing something in Inkscape, and this would make that absolutely clear. So I've made an initial patch that implements this (if I missed a tool, it's easy to add one, just needs a small change to TOOL-context.cpp and some recoloring of cursor-TOOL.xpm).
I'm interested in people's experiences, so I've attached a patch and uploaded a Windows build to: http://home.hccnet.nl/th.v.d.gronde/inkscape-color-cursor.zip (just inkscape.exe, so backup your current inkscape.exe, extract the zip and your good to go)
One of the main glitches it currently has is that the "preview" doesn't change if you select a different color (you have to reselect the tool). Any ideas on fixing that would be appreciated (just reply to the devel list only).
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On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 4:48 AM, Aleksandar Kovac <alex.open.design@...400...> wrote:
[...]Actually, that icon seems to be an in-house rip-off of the Photoshop icon for a real front/back color icon indicator. Maybe someone was thinking that would make a 'consistent UI'?
Yeah - that seems likely :) Again I wish to state that the AI F/S is not fantastic (pretty bad actually) but it does work better than current Inkscape F/S in practice. Without any formal tests I estimate changing an object's color takes me two or three times longer in Inkscape. Which is not that much longer (maybe ~1 second) but I find it annoying.
b) The other thing is that it is unclear why they decided to put 2 color spaces on that icon indicator and then make users switch them. In most cases it was observed that users use, well more than two colors and that the majority of graphics do not have a need to switch those two colors, but to pick the RIGHT color :) As it is now, in Illustrator you have only a 50-50 chance to use the right color, no matter how much you try ;)[...]
Well that's the thing: any given vector object has two color properties. How to present this fact to the user is tricky at best. I don't have a solution, but think that a combined "Appearance" panel would make Inkscape easier to work with. Changing F/S should be one of the easiest/quickest operations in Inkscape. The current tabs involve too much clicking IMO.
I've been racking my brain for a better representation of F/S (as opposed to the AI method), but like I said before it's quite tricky.
c) one more problem, maybe not relevant so much here, is... that the outline/fill icon indicator and the color mixer often are quite distanced from each other in real world situations. So, you mix color on one end of the screen, click on it to choose it, and the indicator for that change is somewhere else, on a toolbar! [...]
In AI I see the F/S in two places 100% of the time: bottom of the toolbar (which I never, ever click on) and the color panel. My workspace places the Stroke dialog directly beneath Color and it's open all of the time (unless I need to mess with gradients or transparency) and swatches hang out to the left side of the Color panel. Point being: at any given time I can 1) see an object's F/S (or current F/S for a new object) in two places, 2) change an object's F/S without having to click on anything except the color mixer or a swatch and 3) create a mixed color or swatch that's tightly grouped on screen with the Color panel (so I don't run into the situation you describe above). F/S also appears in the Appearance panel but I can't say that I ever use that for editing.
In fact with the Color panel atop the Stroke panel in AI, I get a rough approximation of the F/S proposed in the blueprint, and while it does have flaws it's easier (for me at least) to use than current F/S in Inkscape.
Now all that being said the AI UI is pretty rotten. Things are very, very cramped - I would say they have the opposite problem compared with Inkscape: instead of huge dialogs eating up tons of space, they've packed so much into a small area it can be quite painful to access what you want (stroke options for example, grr...). I hope there is some middle ground in there somewhere!
FWIW I learned on AI 6/7 and have been a steady user since 9. Therefore I have just as much hate for Adobe UI as the next fellow :) (whoever came up with the CS3 UI needs to be repeatedly smacked with a large fish - but I digress...)
Anyway all I *really* wanted to say before is that (in my mind) F/S are two sides of the same coin and recycling the color sliders for F/S and combining that with stroke/shape options (as in the proposed blueprint) makes a lot of sense to me from a usability standpoint - less clicking to see/modify an object's colors/attributes.
Lastly I think this is more useful discussion than holy war and I'd like to thank everyone who's chimed in thus far. But hey, feel free to flame me to a crisp - no worries ;)
Chris
PS - should we stay with a tabbed F/S would it be feasible/practical to have 3 keys dedicated to Fill, Stroke Paint and Stroke Style tabs, or perhaps one to cycle them?
"...should we stay with a tabbed F/S would it be feasible/practical to have 3 keys dedicated to Fill, Stroke Paint and Stroke Style tabs, or perhaps one to cycle them?"
Tabs or icons to switch F/S = the same number of clicks. Probably a single icon for switching F to S and back will gain some space and some better visual feedback, but Stroke style controls exposed on the same panel - at the bottom - will eliminate at least a click with no major drawbacks.
2010/9/4 Chris Mohler <cr33dog@...400...>
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 4:48 AM, Aleksandar Kovac <alex.open.design@...400...> wrote:
[...]Actually, that icon seems to be an in-house rip-off of the Photoshop icon for a
real
front/back color icon indicator. Maybe someone was thinking that would
make
a 'consistent UI'?
Yeah - that seems likely :) Again I wish to state that the AI F/S is not fantastic (pretty bad actually) but it does work better than current Inkscape F/S in practice. Without any formal tests I estimate changing an object's color takes me two or three times longer in Inkscape. Which is not that much longer (maybe ~1 second) but I find it annoying.
b) The other thing is that it is unclear why they decided to put 2 color spaces on that icon indicator and then make users switch them. In most
cases
it was observed that users use, well more than two colors and that the majority of graphics do not have a need to switch those two colors, but
to
pick the RIGHT color :) As it is now, in Illustrator you have only a
50-50
chance to use the right color, no matter how much you try ;)[...]
Well that's the thing: any given vector object has two color properties. How to present this fact to the user is tricky at best. I don't have a solution, but think that a combined "Appearance" panel would make Inkscape easier to work with. Changing F/S should be one of the easiest/quickest operations in Inkscape. The current tabs involve too much clicking IMO.
I've been racking my brain for a better representation of F/S (as opposed to the AI method), but like I said before it's quite tricky.
c) one more problem, maybe not relevant so much here, is... that the outline/fill icon indicator and the color mixer often are quite distanced from each other in real world situations. So, you mix color on one end of the screen, click on it to choose it, and the indicator for that change
is
somewhere else, on a toolbar! [...]
In AI I see the F/S in two places 100% of the time: bottom of the toolbar (which I never, ever click on) and the color panel. My workspace places the Stroke dialog directly beneath Color and it's open all of the time (unless I need to mess with gradients or transparency) and swatches hang out to the left side of the Color panel. Point being: at any given time I can 1) see an object's F/S (or current F/S for a new object) in two places, 2) change an object's F/S without having to click on anything except the color mixer or a swatch and 3) create a mixed color or swatch that's tightly grouped on screen with the Color panel (so I don't run into the situation you describe above). F/S also appears in the Appearance panel but I can't say that I ever use that for editing.
In fact with the Color panel atop the Stroke panel in AI, I get a rough approximation of the F/S proposed in the blueprint, and while it does have flaws it's easier (for me at least) to use than current F/S in Inkscape.
Now all that being said the AI UI is pretty rotten. Things are very, very cramped - I would say they have the opposite problem compared with Inkscape: instead of huge dialogs eating up tons of space, they've packed so much into a small area it can be quite painful to access what you want (stroke options for example, grr...). I hope there is some middle ground in there somewhere!
FWIW I learned on AI 6/7 and have been a steady user since 9. Therefore I have just as much hate for Adobe UI as the next fellow :) (whoever came up with the CS3 UI needs to be repeatedly smacked with a large fish - but I digress...)
Anyway all I *really* wanted to say before is that (in my mind) F/S are two sides of the same coin and recycling the color sliders for F/S and combining that with stroke/shape options (as in the proposed blueprint) makes a lot of sense to me from a usability standpoint - less clicking to see/modify an object's colors/attributes.
Lastly I think this is more useful discussion than holy war and I'd like to thank everyone who's chimed in thus far. But hey, feel free to flame me to a crisp - no worries ;)
Chris
PS - should we stay with a tabbed F/S would it be feasible/practical to have 3 keys dedicated to Fill, Stroke Paint and Stroke Style tabs, or perhaps one to cycle them?
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Integrating stroke paint and style on one panel, like you gentlemen have mentioned, would make a lot of sense and bring some consistency, I think. Also, Inkscape already has one nice UI functionality that could, if redesigned properly, contribute a bit to the solution of tabs/icons dealing with fill/stroke. On the left side of the bottom (status?) bar, clicking on the fill or stroke indicators, you will be switched to the appropriate panel. This piece of UI also integrates some of the functions of the mentioned 'appearance' panel from the Illustrator. I believe it could be designed to better use it's potential.
Alex
On 10-09-04 5:17 , SorinN wrote:
"...should we stay with a tabbed F/S would it be feasible/practical to have 3 keys dedicated to Fill, Stroke Paint and Stroke Style tabs, or perhaps one to cycle them?"
Tabs or icons to switch F/S = the same number of clicks. Probably a single icon for switching F to S and back will gain some space and some better visual feedback, but Stroke style controls exposed on the same panel - at the bottom - will eliminate at least a click with no major drawbacks.
2010/9/4 Chris Mohler <cr33dog@...400... mailto:cr33dog@...400...>
On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 4:48 AM, Aleksandar Kovac <alex.open.design@...400... <mailto:alex.open.design@...400...>> wrote: > [...]Actually, > that icon seems to be an in-house rip-off of the Photoshop icon for a real > front/back color icon indicator. Maybe someone was thinking that would make > a 'consistent UI'? Yeah - that seems likely :) Again I wish to state that the AI F/S is not fantastic (pretty bad actually) but it does work better than current Inkscape F/S in practice. Without any formal tests I estimate changing an object's color takes me two or three times longer in Inkscape. Which is not that much longer (maybe ~1 second) but I find it annoying. > b) The other thing is that it is unclear why they decided to put 2 color > spaces on that icon indicator and then make users switch them. In most cases > it was observed that users use, well more than two colors and that the > majority of graphics do not have a need to switch those two colors, but to > pick the RIGHT color :) As it is now, in Illustrator you have only a 50-50 > chance to use the right color, no matter how much you try ;)[...] Well that's the thing: any given vector object has two color properties. How to present this fact to the user is tricky at best. I don't have a solution, but think that a combined "Appearance" panel would make Inkscape easier to work with. Changing F/S should be one of the easiest/quickest operations in Inkscape. The current tabs involve too much clicking IMO. I've been racking my brain for a better representation of F/S (as opposed to the AI method), but like I said before it's quite tricky. > c) one more problem, maybe not relevant so much here, is... that the > outline/fill icon indicator and the color mixer often are quite distanced > from each other in real world situations. So, you mix color on one end of > the screen, click on it to choose it, and the indicator for that change is > somewhere else, on a toolbar! [...] In AI I see the F/S in two places 100% of the time: bottom of the toolbar (which I never, ever click on) and the color panel. My workspace places the Stroke dialog directly beneath Color and it's open all of the time (unless I need to mess with gradients or transparency) and swatches hang out to the left side of the Color panel. Point being: at any given time I can 1) see an object's F/S (or current F/S for a new object) in two places, 2) change an object's F/S without having to click on anything except the color mixer or a swatch and 3) create a mixed color or swatch that's tightly grouped on screen with the Color panel (so I don't run into the situation you describe above). F/S also appears in the Appearance panel but I can't say that I ever use that for editing. In fact with the Color panel atop the Stroke panel in AI, I get a rough approximation of the F/S proposed in the blueprint, and while it does have flaws it's easier (for me at least) to use than current F/S in Inkscape. Now all that being said the AI UI is pretty rotten. Things are very, very cramped - I would say they have the opposite problem compared with Inkscape: instead of huge dialogs eating up tons of space, they've packed so much into a small area it can be quite painful to access what you want (stroke options for example, grr...). I hope there is some middle ground in there somewhere! FWIW I learned on AI 6/7 and have been a steady user since 9. Therefore I have just as much hate for Adobe UI as the next fellow :) (whoever came up with the CS3 UI needs to be repeatedly smacked with a large fish - but I digress...) Anyway all I *really* wanted to say before is that (in my mind) F/S are two sides of the same coin and recycling the color sliders for F/S and combining that with stroke/shape options (as in the proposed blueprint) makes a lot of sense to me from a usability standpoint - less clicking to see/modify an object's colors/attributes. Lastly I think this is more useful discussion than holy war and I'd like to thank everyone who's chimed in thus far. But hey, feel free to flame me to a crisp - no worries ;) Chris PS - should we stay with a tabbed F/S would it be feasible/practical to have 3 keys dedicated to Fill, Stroke Paint and Stroke Style tabs, or perhaps one to cycle them? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This SF.net Dev2Dev email is sponsored by: Show off your parallel programming skills. Enter the Intel(R) Threading Challenge 2010. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-thread-sfd _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
-- Nemes Ioan Sorin
On 10-09-04 4:35 , Chris Mohler wrote:
Yeah - that seems likely :) Again I wish to state that the AI F/S is not fantastic (pretty bad actually) but it does work better than current Inkscape F/S in practice. Without any formal tests I estimate changing an object's color takes me two or three times longer in Inkscape. Which is not that much longer (maybe ~1 second) but I find it annoying.
I am sure that it is so. The color of the stroke is just another quality of the stroke. With the current GUI, it makes perfect sense to join the stroke 'paint' and 'style' into one 'Stroke' panel. Like you mentioned, 'stroke' and 'fill' are 2 concepts, but controlled via 3 panels. :) Somehow my feeble brain refuses to accept that and play along. :)
Well that's the thing: any given vector object has two color properties. How to present this fact to the user is tricky at best. I don't have a solution, but think that a combined "Appearance" panel would make Inkscape easier to work with. Changing F/S should be one of the easiest/quickest operations in Inkscape. The current tabs involve too much clicking IMO.
I've been racking my brain for a better representation of F/S (as opposed to the AI method), but like I said before it's quite tricky.
Yes, it is quite tricky. Color control is one of the core functionalities of Inkscape and the approach should be unified throughout the GUI. I believe that the 'trickiness' to solve the problem comes mainly from the fact that the 'Stroke color' and 'Fill color' are abstract entities with no analogy in the real world. When we draw or paint using the natural media, we have a color marker or a pencil in our hands and there are no 'stroke' and the 'outline' colors! It only depends how we apply that tool on the surface. Sometimes to outline something, and sometimes to fill some shape. As it is, for now, we don't have such a simplistic luxury in digital media. So, we have to come up with new metaphors. If you take a look at the 'stroke' and 'fill' tabs now, you will see that there are separate color mixers and pickers. That is not common in natural media, but in digital media it is acceptable, with no major issues, I think.
There are many directions for the brainstorm on untangling this trickiness you mentioned, I think. For example: - 'natural analogy'... i.e. What is happening in the real world when we deal with color? - 'direct manipulation'... i.e. Can we just ignore the panels and manage the color directly, on object? - 'color as metadata'... i.e. Treating color as a 'tag' that can be stuck on any object. Even several of them, and then just selecting the one we like? - You come up with some more... ;)
btw, I have been working on my own, on a concept for a fundamentally different approach to graphic app paradigm. But I am not sure if it would be coherent at all with the Inkscape's paradigm, but if anyone's interested I will be more than happy to share some thoughts, maybe you could find a way to fuse it, or just give me a reality check. ;)
Now all that being said the AI UI is pretty rotten. Things are very, very cramped - I would say they have the opposite problem compared with Inkscape: instead of huge dialogs eating up tons of space, they've packed so much into a small area it can be quite painful to access what you want (stroke options for example, grr...). I hope there is some middle ground in there somewhere!
:) Yup! They have Featuritis + micropsia.
Actually, I think that Inkscape has many, many unmatched nice-and-motherly-fuzzy-kind UI goodies. Color mixing, snaps, the new node editing, precision, extensions, the whole path operations thingy... I think they are all superb. They do need sometimes some lovin' and some 'visual pattern language' cleaning (a big topic) would be good, too.
Lastly I think this is more useful discussion than holy war and I'd like to thank everyone who's chimed in thus far. But hey, feel free to flame me to a crisp - no worries ;)
Same here! What he said! :)
PS - should we stay with a tabbed F/S would it be feasible/practical to have 3 keys dedicated to Fill, Stroke Paint and Stroke Style tabs, or perhaps one to cycle them?
I would say 2 tabs would be a good fix for now and maybe a cycle key for that. Cycling using keys when there's more than 2 possible states would probably be a bad practice. In practice, we somehow always press that cycle-key too many times, and you end up at one state after the one you needed. And then you have to cycle it again. Can be frustrating. :)
...
Cheers,
Alex
On 2010-09-04 08:39, Aleksandar Kovač wrote:
... There are many directions for the brainstorm on untangling this trickiness you mentioned, I think. For example:
- 'natural analogy'... i.e. What is happening in the real world when we
deal with color?
- 'direct manipulation'... i.e. Can we just ignore the panels and manage
the color directly, on object?
- 'color as metadata'... i.e. Treating color as a 'tag' that can be
stuck on any object. Even several of them, and then just selecting the one we like?
- You come up with some more... ;)
I think you're going in the right direction here, we need to zoom out a bit and look at the bigger picture, not just try to improve the fill and stroke dialog.
Personally I had been thinking about perhaps extending the gradient tool to become a "color" tool (or shading tool, or whatever general name we'd like to use). Currently we can already create either a linear or a radial gradient on canvas, but why not also a flat color or a pattern? Then we could simply have a single color picker to modify the color of whatever is selected. (Note that currently this sort of works with gradient handles, but is a little awkward as we don't really have a single dedicated color picker.)
btw, I have been working on my own, on a concept for a fundamentally different approach to graphic app paradigm. But I am not sure if it would be coherent at all with the Inkscape's paradigm, but if anyone's interested I will be more than happy to share some thoughts, maybe you could find a way to fuse it, or just give me a reality check. ;)
Bring it on :)
I think I managed to send a draft email a few hours ago. Very embarrassing, Jasper and everyone, if you have received a strange e-mail with broken sentences... I beg a pardon... An edited and (hopefully) more sane sounding version would be:
Personally I had been thinking about perhaps extending the gradient tool
to become a "color" tool (or shading tool, or whatever general name we'd like to use). Currently we can already create either a linear or a radial gradient on canvas, but why not also a flat color or a pattern? Then we could simply have a single color picker to modify the color of whatever is selected. (Note that currently this sort of works with gradient handles, but is a little awkward as we don't really have a single dedicated color picker.)
...
If I understand you correctly, that sounds like a very consistent thinking about the color. And it would add a good deal of creative possibilities, without adding any extra elements to the UI. Yes, to me that sounds good. An elegant way to apply color, I must say. :)
Just an idea... it could even lead to a possibility of simplifying the UI by fusing Flat and Gradient controls: A 'gradient' with only one color can only be a flat color! :) Adding more colors would create standard gradients. ... wow, this triggers so many possibilities, for instance (maybe overly hypothetical): - 2 stop (?) gradient that starts with a pattern and blends into a color. - or even a multi stop gradient that allows bitmaps, patterns and flat color to be inserted. - but for later... I am going too far here :)
Bring it on :)
I feel a little uncomfortable 'hijacking' this mailing list thread with it.
:) Being fresh here, and all... Can I start a separate thread for it? I will try to prepare the ideas and send it.
Cheers
Alex
On Sep 5, 2010, at 9:00 PM, Aleksandar Kovac wrote:
If I understand you correctly, that sounds like a very consistent thinking about the color. And it would add a good deal of creative possibilities, without adding any extra elements to the UI. Yes, to me that sounds good. An elegant way to apply color, I must say. :)
Just to complicate your life a little more...
;-)
In SVG we have different concepts.
Once concept is "color"
Another concept is "paint"
Often where one is thinking "color", it really is an application of "paint".
On 2010-09-06 09:11, Jon Cruz wrote:
On Sep 5, 2010, at 9:00 PM, Aleksandar Kovac wrote:
If I understand you correctly, that sounds like a very consistent thinking about the color. And it would add a good deal of creative possibilities, without adding any extra elements to the UI. Yes, to me that sounds good. An elegant way to apply color, I must say. :)
Just to complicate your life a little more...
;-)
In SVG we have different concepts.
Once concept is "color"
Another concept is "paint"
Often where one is thinking "color", it really is an application of "paint".
Just the word I was looking for :) "paint tool" would be much a better description.
I absolutely despise the fill/stroke switcher concept. Fill and stroke, while similar, are two entirely separate things. I don't think it makes any sense for them to share the same space. It's really unintuitive, in my opinion. (I don't think I can express my dislike strongly enough without cursing ;) It took me a good bit of time just to figure that out, and have yet to get used to it after several months of active use.
Joshua, some of us just do vector design for many years, using all possible graphic design software (including Flash) - in all possible OS-es. I do icon design, logo design, vector portraits & heraldic symbols, website UI, software GUI, banners, books, magazines, journals, packages, frame-by-frame flash movies, etc. and I consider I have enough experience (I cross thru a lot of very specific situations) so I can value this change as positive.
You say you are not ignorant but you just ignore that fact that you don't cross thru all possible design situations yet - in some situations you will need this 1 or 2 clicks economy (for example when you work on complex graphics with multiple layers with many small shapes in a small area) more than you need air. You will feel that.
If you have just few shapes and few points ans also you have time enough ..all OK, ..no question ask. But when you have do modify thousands of shapes / day you will appreciate a click less / operation, so they discuss here not about if panel should be changed - but how the workflow can be improved without introducing more complexity.
Oliver Jan Krylow mock-up also put the stroke controls on the same tab with Colors control and this is a plus over actual panel, because reduce the Stroke Style tab (a click less), facilitating a direct view and access to the Shape style controls.
Now the problem is how to deal with the switcher button (F/S). In the case when Inkscape don't have a very specific Line / Shape selector tool (just a node tool) AND that panel will integrate the stroke control tools as in Oliver mockup, then we can have the same functionality (switching between Fill and Stroke fill) using tabs / radio buttons / simply buttons. A new control like GIMP FG/BG widget for F/S switch probably will introduce a new complexity. All in all, the integration of Shape styles in this panel is a good step forward.
2010/9/3 Joshua Facemyer <jfacemyer@...400...>:
I just don't get how it's so much less work - I'm not ignorant by any means, and I easily learn new software, so I'm pretty sure that I haven't missed much. But I haven't found Inkscape to be any more cumbersome to use Fill and Stroke. Quite the opposite.
(BTW, the reason I don't generally use tutorials is that I figure things out very quickly and only need to look up a few tricky parts here and there - the fact that this had me baffled, for however short a time, does not have me convinced that Adobe should be mimicked in this regard
- certainly wasn't user friendly, as far as I am concerned.)
Additionally (on a related note), selecting colors in Inkscape is vastly easier, in my opinion, than in Adobeware. (I'm looking forward to improved swatching, however, in Inkscape.)
If keyboard shortcuts are the only thing you're saying is better, why don't we just add similar shortcuts? Or maybe do it better(er) somehow?
My intention is not to start a flame war - simply to strongly urge that we don't go that direction, because there has got to be a better way, even if we just adapt what we already have.
JF
On 09/02/2010 05:49 PM, Chris Mohler wrote:
On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Joshua Facemyer<jfacemyer@...400...> wrote:
I wish to strongly disagree about combining the fill and stroke dialogs. I recently started to use a "professional" proprietary software suite for a new job (no choice for me) and have had to learn the interface, some elements which this mockup is trying to imitate.
You can Adobe-bash all you want to but the Fill-Stroke in Illustrator is vastly easier to use than current Inkscape. The rest of the interface might in fact be a nightmare, but:
'x' key - toggle fill/stroke active 'X' key - switch fill/stroke '/' key - remove either fill or stroke (whichever is active) Perhaps these keys will help you with your new job ;) Also lynda.com offers pretty good (paid) tutorials on AI, and there are tons of free ones out there.
Not to mention AI F/S parallels the FG/BG concept used by GIMP, Photoshop, et al.
Don't get me wrong - Inkscape does quite a few things better than AI. However, F/S is not one of them, Way, way too many steps involved to manage the appearance of an object. All IMO of course :)
Chris
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Joshua Facemyer <jfacemyer@...360...> writes:
I wish to strongly disagree about combining the fill and stroke dialogs. I recently started to use a "professional" proprietary software suite for a new job (no choice for me) and have had to learn the interface, some elements which this mockup is trying to imitate.
I absolutely despise the fill/stroke switcher concept. Fill and stroke, while similar, are two entirely separate things. I don't think it makes any sense for them to share the same space.
In terms of sheer interaction design, if we *only* look at the fill color and stroke color tabs, the adobe-type switcher and the tabs are not that different. both take one click to switch between the two modes. Both can't let you edit the two properties at once. The tabs have the advantage of being familiar and more obvious to beginners, and it is easier for you to see whether you are editing fill or stroke - the adobe switcher can get you to make mistake now and then. The advantage of the adobe switcher is that the switcher itself is also a color indicator, and it provides a somewhat bigger target for the cursor. But all in all I don't think one option has a very big advantage over the other. It is perfectly reasonable to keep the tab-style switching with those two.
That said, the stroke *style* tab is a different matter. It is always better to have as much of the interface available at the same time. If it is somehow possible to make the stroke style properties - or at least the most common (width and dash) visible at all times without increasing the panel size - I think that would be a great improvement.
to have as much of the interface available at the same time. If it is somehow possible to make the stroke style properties - or at least the most common (width and dash) visible at all times without increasing the panel size - I think that would be a great improvement.
+10
I find myself spending a lot of time switching between fill/stroke/stroke-style. I'd be very much in favor of stroke-width+dash being made accessible globally along with blur/opacity.
- Bryan
On Sep 2, 2010, at 2:31 PM, Joshua Facemyer wrote:
And it's a pain to have to pay attention to which of the icons is actually in front, rather than just seeing which tab is active by a quick glance.
This is a good point on usability. It's "cool" to tweak the UI in artistic ways, but one should keep in mind it is more functional to follow core UI principals and conventions.
On Sep 2, 2010, at 10:59 AM, Michael Grosberg wrote:
Lastly I want to remind you that the most important feature missing in the current UI is the ability of making the UI stick between sessions. Open panels should still be open, and in their last set size, the next time you open inkscape.
I already have work underway to address that. That is the "adaptive UI" stuff. At the moment the overall solution looks to take on cascading properties, which you can think of as similar to CSS for the UI layout.
participants (10)
-
Aleksandar Kovac
-
Aleksandar Kovač
-
Alexandre Prokoudine
-
Bryan Hoyt | Brush Technology
-
Chris Mohler
-
Jasper van de Gronde
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Jon Cruz
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Joshua Facemyer
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Michael Grosberg
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SorinN