Hey folks; I had submitted a second proposal last Friday, and though I was very busy this weekend, I now have found the time to ask for input on the new one.
I noticed nobody replied to my earlier message, so I'll just reintroduce myself. I've been using Inkscape for years, and have done a fair amount of work in it. This alone doesn't qualify me for application to the GSoC, so I'll just leave this link to Nanoblok, a project I've worked on for quite some time, to demonstrate my ability to write JavaScript: http://code.google.com/p/nanoblok/
I know Inkscape has the capability to use JavaScript extensions, and I've noticed a couple of files written in that language in the source, but I most likely won't be using that when working with what I want to do, and I recognize this.
What I want to do is, well, to enhance the export system of Inkscape, make it more intuitive and integrated by merging the Export As and Save As dialogs together into a single pane, with selection features that were developed for the bitmap exporter also being able to work with vector export / saving.
One problem with the current system this would solve is that Save As might make the user feel they can reload using that format and not lose anything, whereas the only original document with all their settings and information would be an Inkscape SVG. So, by labeling all other formats, both bitmap and vector, as Export, and placing them under a single dialog, there is less confusion, as well as the opportunity to more easily add additional formats and functionality.
This is all illustrated and detailed here, in the following public Google Doc: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AcePN-K69iVuZDI2ajlmYl85MzM2Yzg1Y2pkOA&...
At any rate, let me know what you think of this!
- Alex
On 4/14/10, Alex Trujillo wrote:
I noticed nobody replied to my earlier message,
I'm sorry about that :(
What I want to do is, well, to enhance the export system of Inkscape, make it more intuitive and integrated by merging the Export As and Save As dialogs together into a single pane, with selection features that were developed for the bitmap exporter also being able to work with vector export / saving.
Um, we sort of had an agreement, or at least an understanding :) that we want to further separate export from saving.
Saving should be possible only for file formats we can reliably open, edit and save back. The rest is exporting. That makes:
File > Save -- to just save an SVG, Plain SVG of Clean SVG File > Save As > same, but save under a different name File > Save a Copy > same, create a new file from current document without opening it File > Export > all the EPS, PDF and so on
But it needs doing.
However, what also needs doing is having more file formats available in the exporting dialog. E.g. exporting selections to SVG, EPS and PDF is still one of quite popular request from what I remember. And of course some people are missing exporting to TIFF.
Alexandre
Did you read the paragraph beneath the one you quoted? Perhaps I should go into this idea in greater detail.
The way this would then work out is: Save -- To Inkscape SVG only Save As -- no longer used Save a Copy -- basically making a duplicate of the file, good for backups/revisions Export -- new file in any supported format exported from any area of the document, including the entire document itself.
If there are red flags in terms of removing Save As, think about it. Save As copies the current document, renames it, with the option to save it as a different format. Save a Copy is much more intuitive, as this will simply just save a copy of the current document only in Inkscape SVG while letting the user rename the document, so this is good for keeping revisions (big_project-1c.svg, big_project-2a.svg, etc), this is valuable. Save should not save to any other format than Inkscape SVG, because any other way, information is lost, and this isn't really a real save.
TIFF would be a logical format to add along with JPEG and PNG as bitmap formats in the Export pane as well.
- Alex
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 5:31 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine < alexandre.prokoudine@...400...> wrote:
On 4/14/10, Alex Trujillo wrote:
I noticed nobody replied to my earlier message,
I'm sorry about that :(
What I want to do is, well, to enhance the export system of Inkscape,
make
it more intuitive and integrated by merging the Export As and Save As dialogs together into a single pane, with selection features that were developed for the bitmap exporter also being able to work with vector
export
/ saving.
Um, we sort of had an agreement, or at least an understanding :) that we want to further separate export from saving.
Saving should be possible only for file formats we can reliably open, edit and save back. The rest is exporting. That makes:
File > Save -- to just save an SVG, Plain SVG of Clean SVG File > Save As > same, but save under a different name File > Save a Copy > same, create a new file from current document without opening it File > Export > all the EPS, PDF and so on
But it needs doing.
However, what also needs doing is having more file formats available in the exporting dialog. E.g. exporting selections to SVG, EPS and PDF is still one of quite popular request from what I remember. And of course some people are missing exporting to TIFF.
Alexandre
Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
On 4/14/10, Alex Trujillo wrote:
Did you read the paragraph beneath the one you quoted?
Oh, right you are. Sorry for the noise.
Save As -- no longer used
If there are red flags in terms of removing Save As, think about it. Save As copies the current document, renames it, with the option to save it as a different format.
Which is excellent for iterative work on a project, except it shouldn't suggest anything beyond SVG.
Alexandre
This direction is delightful. Currently I am preferring a local prefix convention for Inkscape files. So I am suffering the dialogs. Your proposal is welcome. I suspect it also has room, at some point in the future, for a pipeline export via xslt transform.
Do you need votes anywhere?
MarkT
What would be very useful for bitmap export (and the same is true for creating bitmap copy) is an additional dialog box like the one of Xara whith the following infos :
True colour + alpha True colour 256 colour 16 colour 2 colour
I will not detail here the other settings options in Xara dialog box which of course are of great use also.
ivan
________________________________ De : Alex Trujillo <cryptoquick@...400...> À : Inkscape Devel List Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Envoyé le : Mer 14 avril 2010, 1 h 15 min 32 s Objet : [Inkscape-devel] GSoC Entry - Inkscape Export Pane
Hey folks; I had submitted a second proposal last Friday, and though I was very busy this weekend, I now have found the time to ask for input on the new one.
I noticed nobody replied to my earlier message, so I'll just reintroduce myself. I've been using Inkscape for years, and have done a fair amount of work in it. This alone doesn't qualify me for application to the GSoC, so I'll just leave this link to Nanoblok, a project I've worked on for quite some time, to demonstrate my ability to write JavaScript: http://code.google.com/p/nanoblok/
I know Inkscape has the capability to use JavaScript extensions, and I've noticed a couple of files written in that language in the source, but I most likely won't be using that when working with what I want to do, and I recognize this.
What I want to do is, well, to enhance the export system of Inkscape, make it more intuitive and integrated by merging the Export As and Save As dialogs together into a single pane, with selection features that were developed for the bitmap exporter also being able to work with vector export / saving.
One problem with the current system this would solve is that Save As might make the user feel they can reload using that format and not lose anything, whereas the only original document with all their settings and information would be an Inkscape SVG. So, by labeling all other formats, both bitmap and vector, as Export, and placing them under a single dialog, there is less confusion, as well as the opportunity to more easily add additional formats and functionality.
This is all illustrated and detailed here, in the following public Google Doc: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AcePN-K69iVuZDI2ajlmYl85MzM2Yzg1Y2pkOA&...
At any rate, let me know what you think of this!
- Alex
On Tue, 2010-04-13 at 18:56 -0600, Alex Trujillo wrote:
If there are red flags in terms of removing Save As, think about it. Save As copies the current document, renames it, with the option to save it as a different format. Save a Copy is much more intuitive, as this will simply just save a copy of the current document only in Inkscape SVG while letting the user rename the document, so this is good for keeping revisions (big_project-1c.svg, big_project-2a.svg, etc), this is valuable.
There's nothing "intuitive" in removing a cross-application standard feature to rely on a related feature that is much less common.
So the sole difference between Save_As and Save_a_Copy should be whether you end up with the new document opened (replacing the association to the previous file). I'd have a hard time arguing that one of these is "better" than the other, but as it happens, one of them is common.
A problem that I have sometimes, that would be the same in both cases, is that I sometimes would like to rename an open file in place (changing the filename on disk and name of the open file in one go). Currently I would do a Save_As and then later on delete the previous file.
(Users without a good concept about this file-on-disk vs file-in-memory business must live in hell.)
I think getting rid of Save_As would be a very bad idea. I almost always start a new graphic with an existing file that I review to make sure it will suit the purpose and then ' save_as' the new document in the appropriate location. I never ever have a need to 'save_a_copy' and would prefer to see it gone if we are trying to streamline the interface.
Just my vote : )
Stu On Apr 14, 2010, at 3:53 AM, Thorsten Wilms wrote:
On Tue, 2010-04-13 at 18:56 -0600, Alex Trujillo wrote:
If there are red flags in terms of removing Save As, think about it. Save As copies the current document, renames it, with the option to save it as a different format. Save a Copy is much more intuitive, as this will simply just save a copy of the current document only in Inkscape SVG while letting the user rename the document, so this is good for keeping revisions (big_project-1c.svg, big_project-2a.svg, etc), this is valuable.
There's nothing "intuitive" in removing a cross-application standard feature to rely on a related feature that is much less common.
So the sole difference between Save_As and Save_a_Copy should be whether you end up with the new document opened (replacing the association to the previous file). I'd have a hard time arguing that one of these is "better" than the other, but as it happens, one of them is common.
A problem that I have sometimes, that would be the same in both cases, is that I sometimes would like to rename an open file in place (changing the filename on disk and name of the open file in one go). Currently I would do a Save_As and then later on delete the previous file.
(Users without a good concept about this file-on-disk vs file-in-memory business must live in hell.)
-- Thorsten Wilms
thorwil's design for free software: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/
Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
I think there are strong use cases for both "Save As" and "Save a Copy", since they both do different and very useful things. Please do NOT remove either.
However, it would make sense to make all "Save" options only save in the native format.
JF
On 04/13/2010 08:56 PM, Alex Trujillo wrote:
Did you read the paragraph beneath the one you quoted? Perhaps I should go into this idea in greater detail.
The way this would then work out is: Save -- To Inkscape SVG only Save As -- no longer used Save a Copy -- basically making a duplicate of the file, good for backups/revisions Export -- new file in any supported format exported from any area of the document, including the entire document itself.
If there are red flags in terms of removing Save As, think about it. Save As copies the current document, renames it, with the option to save it as a different format. Save a Copy is much more intuitive, as this will simply just save a copy of the current document only in Inkscape SVG while letting the user rename the document, so this is good for keeping revisions (big_project-1c.svg, big_project-2a.svg, etc), this is valuable. Save should not save to any other format than Inkscape SVG, because any other way, information is lost, and this isn't really a real save.
TIFF would be a logical format to add along with JPEG and PNG as bitmap formats in the Export pane as well.
- Alex
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 5:31 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine <alexandre.prokoudine@...400... mailto:alexandre.prokoudine@...400...> wrote:
On 4/14/10, Alex Trujillo wrote: > I noticed nobody replied to my earlier message, I'm sorry about that :( > What I want to do is, well, to enhance the export system of Inkscape, make > it more intuitive and integrated by merging the Export As and Save As > dialogs together into a single pane, with selection features that were > developed for the bitmap exporter also being able to work with vector export > / saving. Um, we sort of had an agreement, or at least an understanding :) that we want to further separate export from saving. Saving should be possible only for file formats we can reliably open, edit and save back. The rest is exporting. That makes: File > Save -- to just save an SVG, Plain SVG of Clean SVG File > Save As > same, but save under a different name File > Save a Copy > same, create a new file from current document without opening it File > Export > all the EPS, PDF and so on But it needs doing. However, what also needs doing is having more file formats available in the exporting dialog. E.g. exporting selections to SVG, EPS and PDF is still one of quite popular request from what I remember. And of course some people are missing exporting to TIFF. Alexandre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev
Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Perhaps it would be confusing for those who already use the feature, but a case in part is Stuart's comment:
I think getting rid of Save_As would be a very bad idea. I almost always
start a new graphic with an existing file that I review to make sure it will suit the purpose and then ' save_as' the new document in the appropriate location. I never ever have a need to 'save_a_copy' and would prefer to see it gone if we are trying to streamline the interface.
Thing is, unless you're changing the native save format, which you shouldn't be if you're starting a new document to start from, Save a Copy does exactly what you want to do.
I suppose there needs to be a way to bring up the Export Pane, but it should probably be accessed under the Export command, not Save As, considering that the act of saving shouldn't be confused with exporting, which is something that Save As can do.
Alexander says this:
Which is excellent for iterative work on a project, except it shouldn't suggest anything beyond SVG.
This is what Save As does, since you can save in a wide variety of vector formats. Data is lost in saving to these formats.
Mark, you would be right in that this would encourage and make for a good place for extra formats, including ones that Inkscape already supports, but are simply in other dialogs. I appreciate your support.
Ivan, you raise a valid point, and I'm not sure if I detailed on this enough. There are often additional dialogs for different formats. There will be a need to handle this extra dialog in a decent manner, one that follows good design.
I value everyone's input, especially ones like Thorsten's comment. Not only did he raise a valid point, that it might not be so intuitive to remove a feature that many people have used in the past, especially across applications. Also, I looked up and experimented with the two different features, and they do have different behaviors. So, I figure, they both should stay, but the format changing should be left to the Export Dialog. Some might argue that this functionality be left untouched as well, and only the Export Pane be used to implement additional functionality, without removing anything from anything else.
Also, I had to laugh at Thorsten's side-comment. Those poor, poor souls. :'(
At any rate, I've learned some valuable things from this exchange, and will develop this idea further in the Google Doc when I get the chance. Thanks for all the good comments!
- Alex
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 6:22 AM, Joshua Facemyer <jfacemyer@...400...>wrote:
I think there are strong use cases for both "Save As" and "Save a Copy", since they both do different and very useful things. Please do NOT remove either.
However, it would make sense to make all "Save" options only save in the native format.
JF
On 04/13/2010 08:56 PM, Alex Trujillo wrote:
Did you read the paragraph beneath the one you quoted? Perhaps I should go into this idea in greater detail.
The way this would then work out is: Save -- To Inkscape SVG only Save As -- no longer used Save a Copy -- basically making a duplicate of the file, good for backups/revisions Export -- new file in any supported format exported from any area of the document, including the entire document itself.
If there are red flags in terms of removing Save As, think about it. Save As copies the current document, renames it, with the option to save it as a different format. Save a Copy is much more intuitive, as this will simply just save a copy of the current document only in Inkscape SVG while letting the user rename the document, so this is good for keeping revisions (big_project-1c.svg, big_project-2a.svg, etc), this is valuable. Save should not save to any other format than Inkscape SVG, because any other way, information is lost, and this isn't really a real save.
TIFF would be a logical format to add along with JPEG and PNG as bitmap formats in the Export pane as well.
- Alex
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 5:31 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine <alexandre.prokoudine@...400... mailto:alexandre.prokoudine@...400...>
wrote:
On 4/14/10, Alex Trujillo wrote:
> I noticed nobody replied to my earlier message,I'm sorry about that :(
> What I want to do is, well, to enhance the export system ofInkscape, make > it more intuitive and integrated by merging the Export As and Save As > dialogs together into a single pane, with selection features that were > developed for the bitmap exporter also being able to work with vector export > / saving.
Um, we sort of had an agreement, or at least an understanding :) that we want to further separate export from saving.
Saving should be possible only for file formats we can reliably open, edit and save back. The rest is exporting. That makes:
File > Save -- to just save an SVG, Plain SVG of Clean SVG File > Save As > same, but save under a different name File > Save a Copy > same, create a new file from current document without opening it File > Export > all the EPS, PDF and so on
But it needs doing.
However, what also needs doing is having more file formats available in the exporting dialog. E.g. exporting selections to SVG, EPS and PDF is still one of quite popular request from what I remember. And of course some people are missing exporting to TIFF.
Alexandre
Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net mailto:Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev
Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Also, just to reiterate a point hidden in one of my last paragraphs that perhaps contradicts one or some of my earlier statements, Save a Copy does do something different than Save As, having looked it up here: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/ReleaseNotes045#Even_more_improvemen...
A Save a copy command has been added to the file menu, similar to the 'Save a copy' functionality of e.g. Adobe Illustrator. With this command, you can save your document under a new filename, but Inkscape will then "forget" it has done this: later saves will be to the old filename. The default shortcut assigned to this function is Shift+Ctrl+Alt+S.
This makes sense, if I had experimented with this more, I should have realized it. I might even have realized it before, and just forgot.
Anyway, if I were to implement the Export Pane feature, I've decided not to put forth to remove functionality from other areas!
- Alex http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/ReleaseNotes045#Even_more_improvements On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Alex Trujillo <cryptoquick@...400...>wrote:
Perhaps it would be confusing for those who already use the feature, but a case in part is Stuart's comment:
I think getting rid of Save_As would be a very bad idea. I almost always
start a new graphic with an existing file that I review to make sure it will suit the purpose and then ' save_as' the new document in the appropriate location. I never ever have a need to 'save_a_copy' and would prefer to see it gone if we are trying to streamline the interface.
Thing is, unless you're changing the native save format, which you shouldn't be if you're starting a new document to start from, Save a Copy does exactly what you want to do.
I suppose there needs to be a way to bring up the Export Pane, but it should probably be accessed under the Export command, not Save As, considering that the act of saving shouldn't be confused with exporting, which is something that Save As can do.
Alexander says this:
Which is excellent for iterative work on a project, except it shouldn't suggest anything beyond SVG.
This is what Save As does, since you can save in a wide variety of vector formats. Data is lost in saving to these formats.
Mark, you would be right in that this would encourage and make for a good place for extra formats, including ones that Inkscape already supports, but are simply in other dialogs. I appreciate your support.
Ivan, you raise a valid point, and I'm not sure if I detailed on this enough. There are often additional dialogs for different formats. There will be a need to handle this extra dialog in a decent manner, one that follows good design.
I value everyone's input, especially ones like Thorsten's comment. Not only did he raise a valid point, that it might not be so intuitive to remove a feature that many people have used in the past, especially across applications. Also, I looked up and experimented with the two different features, and they do have different behaviors. So, I figure, they both should stay, but the format changing should be left to the Export Dialog. Some might argue that this functionality be left untouched as well, and only the Export Pane be used to implement additional functionality, without removing anything from anything else.
Also, I had to laugh at Thorsten's side-comment. Those poor, poor souls. :'(
At any rate, I've learned some valuable things from this exchange, and will develop this idea further in the Google Doc when I get the chance. Thanks for all the good comments!
- Alex
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 6:22 AM, Joshua Facemyer <jfacemyer@...400...>wrote:
I think there are strong use cases for both "Save As" and "Save a Copy", since they both do different and very useful things. Please do NOT remove either.
However, it would make sense to make all "Save" options only save in the native format.
JF
On 04/13/2010 08:56 PM, Alex Trujillo wrote:
Did you read the paragraph beneath the one you quoted? Perhaps I should go into this idea in greater detail.
The way this would then work out is: Save -- To Inkscape SVG only Save As -- no longer used Save a Copy -- basically making a duplicate of the file, good for backups/revisions Export -- new file in any supported format exported from any area of the document, including the entire document itself.
If there are red flags in terms of removing Save As, think about it. Save As copies the current document, renames it, with the option to save it as a different format. Save a Copy is much more intuitive, as this will simply just save a copy of the current document only in Inkscape SVG while letting the user rename the document, so this is good for keeping revisions (big_project-1c.svg, big_project-2a.svg, etc), this is valuable. Save should not save to any other format than Inkscape SVG, because any other way, information is lost, and this isn't really a real save.
TIFF would be a logical format to add along with JPEG and PNG as bitmap formats in the Export pane as well.
- Alex
On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 5:31 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine <alexandre.prokoudine@...400... mailto:alexandre.prokoudine@...400...>
wrote:
On 4/14/10, Alex Trujillo wrote:
> I noticed nobody replied to my earlier message,I'm sorry about that :(
> What I want to do is, well, to enhance the export system ofInkscape, make > it more intuitive and integrated by merging the Export As and Save As > dialogs together into a single pane, with selection features that were > developed for the bitmap exporter also being able to work with vector export > / saving.
Um, we sort of had an agreement, or at least an understanding :) that we want to further separate export from saving.
Saving should be possible only for file formats we can reliably open, edit and save back. The rest is exporting. That makes:
File > Save -- to just save an SVG, Plain SVG of Clean SVG File > Save As > same, but save under a different name File > Save a Copy > same, create a new file from current document without opening it File > Export > all the EPS, PDF and so on
But it needs doing.
However, what also needs doing is having more file formats available in the exporting dialog. E.g. exporting selections to SVG, EPS and PDF is still one of quite popular request from what I remember. And of course some people are missing exporting to TIFF.
Alexandre
Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net mailto:Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev
Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
On 4/15/10, Alex Trujillo wrote:
Alexander says this:
Which is excellent for iterative work on a project, except it shouldn't suggest anything beyond SVG.
This is what Save As does, since you can save in a wide variety of vector formats. Data is lost in saving to these formats.
Er... But I _was_ talking about Save As. What is the point of repeating my argument as if I said the opposite thing?
Alexandre
On 14 April 2010 22:05, Alexandre Prokoudine <alexandre.prokoudine@...400...> wrote:
On 4/15/10, Alex Trujillo wrote:
Alexander says this:
Which is excellent for iterative work on a project, except it shouldn't suggest anything beyond SVG.
This is what Save As does, since you can save in a wide variety of vector formats. Data is lost in saving to these formats.
Er... But I _was_ talking about Save As. What is the point of repeating my argument as if I said the opposite thing?
Alexandre
I think our Save As really should be limited to SVG or at least to lossless formats, if your going to change what document the open window is representing it should never be to something that is lossy. Having things like gimp palette in there is ridiculous, as your doc then thinks thats what it is. And Save a Copy is very useful as is, how else do you do incremental backups whilst staying working on the master file? just my 2p
Agreed, I think the three of us can agree that it is best to Save, Save As, and Save a Copy (everything with the word Save), then Export with everything else, bitmap and vector.
I complicated this with the menu changes, and I don't think there was mention of that in my original proposal; I tacked it on with the email here. This really is more for an Export Pane which integrates many formats into a single Pane... I had a graphic of that in the document I linked to in the original post, just in case not everyone has seen it to get a good idea of what the main proposal is here.
- Alex
On Wednesday, April 14, 2010, john cliff <john.cliff@...400...> wrote:
On 14 April 2010 22:05, Alexandre Prokoudine <alexandre.prokoudine@...400...> wrote:
On 4/15/10, Alex Trujillo wrote:
Alexander says this:
Which is excellent for iterative work on a project, except it shouldn't suggest anything beyond SVG.
This is what Save As does, since you can save in a wide variety of vector formats. Data is lost in saving to these formats.
Er... But I _was_ talking about Save As. What is the point of repeating my argument as if I said the opposite thing?
Alexandre
I think our Save As really should be limited to SVG or at least to lossless formats, if your going to change what document the open window is representing it should never be to something that is lossy. Having things like gimp palette in there is ridiculous, as your doc then thinks thats what it is. And Save a Copy is very useful as is, how else do you do incremental backups whilst staying working on the master file? just my 2p
Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Do you mean to leave "Save As" as it is, saving to non-native file formats?
JF
john cliff wrote:
And Save a Copy is very useful as is, how else do you do incremental backups whilst staying working on the master file? just my 2p
Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Pardon, yes, was pretty busy today when I was typing that stuff, probably didn't look it over before I sent it.
I meant that saving native to Inkscape SVG should be what Save, Save As, and Save a Copy do, preferably without the option to change the format, then Export As or something would bring up a dialog or pane such as how I diagrammed in the document.
Only thing is, I'm now a little wary of -removing- existing functionality, so perhaps keeping the option to change the format inside those dialogs might still be important for some, while simply replacing the Export dialog with the new Export Pane, which will offer more options than simply saving the entire document as a different format; there would also be selection export for vector objects, for example.
- Alex
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 7:56 PM, Joshua Facemyer <jfacemyer@...400...>wrote:
Do you mean to leave "Save As" as it is, saving to non-native file formats?
JF
john cliff wrote:
And Save a Copy is very useful as is, how else do you do incremental backups whilst staying working on the master file? just my 2p
Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
No, I believe the general consensus is to separate the export stuff from saving in native SVG. You're on the right track, and what you're doing wouldn't remove existing functionality, just move it to a different menu item (of which the benefit would be the whole point of the change, anyway).
The export function would serve as "Save a Copy" and "Save As" for external formats. The only thing it wouldn't do is Save as an external format and continue working on it (which is really counterintuitive and confusing anyway, since you're not working on the PDF you just saved, but an in-memory native SVG file, so it makes sense this way).
Something you might consider doing is having an option in "Save a Copy" (only) to automatically increment the file name.
JF
Alex Trujillo wrote:
Pardon, yes, was pretty busy today when I was typing that stuff, probably didn't look it over before I sent it.
I meant that saving native to Inkscape SVG should be what Save, Save As, and Save a Copy do, preferably without the option to change the format, then Export As or something would bring up a dialog or pane such as how I diagrammed in the document.
Only thing is, I'm now a little wary of -removing- existing functionality, so perhaps keeping the option to change the format inside those dialogs might still be important for some, while simply replacing the Export dialog with the new Export Pane, which will offer more options than simply saving the entire document as a different format; there would also be selection export for vector objects, for example.
- Alex
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 7:56 PM, Joshua Facemyer <jfacemyer@...400... mailto:jfacemyer@...400...> wrote:
Do you mean to leave "Save As" as it is, saving to non-native file formats? JF john cliff wrote: > And Save a Copy is very useful as is, how else do you do incremental > backups whilst staying working on the master file? > just my 2p > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval > Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs > proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. > See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev > _______________________________________________ > Inkscape-devel mailing list > Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance. See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto:Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel--0016e6d77fa086dab704843f5a58--�
-----Original Message----- From: Alex Trujillo [mailto:cryptoquick@...400...] Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 01:34 To: john cliff Cc: Inkscape Devel List; Alexandre Prokoudine Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] GSoC Entry - Inkscape Export Pane
Agreed, I think the three of us can agree that it is best to Save, Save As, and Save a Copy (everything with the word Save), then Export with everything else, bitmap and vector.
I complicated this with the menu changes, and I don't think there was mention of that in my original proposal; I tacked it on with the email here. This really is more for an Export Pane which integrates many formats into a single Pane... I had a graphic of that in the document I linked to in the original post, just in case not everyone has seen it to get a good idea of what the main proposal is here.
Exactly, let's stop the discussion about the Save stuff. Imho, it is a very uninteresting minor thing, compared to the rest of the proposal.
I like the idea of "export profiles" that can be saved. So that one can export e.g. to PDF without thinking about it, and with one click of the button. Like the PNG export, Inkscape should store the file to which was export to last time. Perhaps it is even possible to have a "quick export" button, to export exactly the same way it was done last time.
Cheers, Johan
Johan, thanks for reading that, I thought it was a particularly inspired part of the proposal, as there are many uses for such a feature, and I can only imagine what current users must go through when they could be making use of that feature.
A Quick Export might be very nice, but also, it might prove problematic if it's not exporting anything other than the entire document; e.g., if selections change. One thing that an artist could do is, on another layer, put a transparent rectangle, and export that. Or, maybe there could be a specified, 'official' export rect within the document, which would be set by selecting an empty, transparent rect within the document, then clicking a button within the Export Pane that would make it stay and be specified as the Quick Export Area. This would make a Quick Export for a selection much less complicated, and would help users, because I've currently done things like this before, but the problem is, transparent rectangles are removed from the document by Inkscape, so it can be annoying to do it that way at the moment. Regardless, it's a feature that would probably go hand-in-hand with profiles feature, I agree. If Quick Export were to be developed, I don't think I'd make it as a separate button, however, I think I'd just put that functionality into the current Export button.
Also, what a coincidence, I know someone named Sander B. who goes to University of Twente. :)
-- In response to JF, if that's the general consensus, I think it must be done, then. ;) But seriously, I agree it would be for the better to remove the vector export functionality from the save dialogs, then just keep that to the export pane.
Another thing for the Export button is, I should have an option for it to overwrite, or numerical increment. If overwriting, a confirmation dialog would be shown, but not so with increment. Good idea.
-- Martin, I believe Inkscape already does this, if I understand the both of you correctly. Once you've saved the document, it will already have the same directory you saved it to selected. But yes, things in the Export Pane, including the vector exports, should be handled the same was as PNG export.
- Alex
On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 1:38 AM, <J.B.C.Engelen@...1578...> wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: Alex Trujillo [mailto:cryptoquick@...400...] Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 01:34 To: john cliff Cc: Inkscape Devel List; Alexandre Prokoudine Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] GSoC Entry - Inkscape Export Pane
Agreed, I think the three of us can agree that it is best to Save, Save As, and Save a Copy (everything with the word Save), then Export with everything else, bitmap and vector.
I complicated this with the menu changes, and I don't think there was mention of that in my original proposal; I tacked it on with the email here. This really is more for an Export Pane which integrates many formats into a single Pane... I had a graphic of that in the document I linked to in the original post, just in case not everyone has seen it to get a good idea of what the main proposal is here.
Exactly, let's stop the discussion about the Save stuff. Imho, it is a very uninteresting minor thing, compared to the rest of the proposal.
I like the idea of "export profiles" that can be saved. So that one can export e.g. to PDF without thinking about it, and with one click of the button. Like the PNG export, Inkscape should store the file to which was export to last time. Perhaps it is even possible to have a "quick export" button, to export exactly the same way it was done last time.
Cheers, Johan
Actually, I don't know if that's as important is having it just in the "Save a Copy", since the reason for incrementing is usually to have a backup source file. (Why would you want to save incremental versions of your file to PDF, for example?) I guess one could make use of it in various ways, but I'd think it would be very low on the importance scale.
JF
On 04/15/2010 11:50 AM, Alex Trujillo wrote:
Another thing for the Export button is, I should have an option for it to overwrite, or numerical increment. If overwriting, a confirmation dialog would be shown, but not so with increment. Good idea.
On Thursday 15 April 2010 17:50:20 Alex Trujillo wrote:
Johan, thanks for reading that, I thought it was a particularly inspired part of the proposal, as there are many uses for such a feature, and I can only imagine what current users must go through when they could be making use of that feature.
A Quick Export might be very nice, but also, it might prove problematic if it's not exporting anything other than the entire document; e.g., if selections change. One thing that an artist could do is, on another layer, put a transparent rectangle, and export that. Or, maybe there could be a specified, 'official' export rect within the document, which would be set by selecting an empty, transparent rect within the document, then clicking a button within the Export Pane that would make it stay and be specified as the Quick Export Area.
What about remembering the selection bounding box (and use that later for quick export) when you run the export from dialog?
-- Martin, I believe Inkscape already does this, if I understand the both of you correctly. Once you've saved the document, it will already have the same directory you saved it to selected.
Currently, it works as following:
1. I create a drawing and save it into directory A 2. Then I export the drawing as png into the same directory 3. Then I save the drawing again 4. Then I move the drawing (only svg) to directory B 5. When I open Export Bitmap dialog (and the "Custom" button was selected), it has the correct path to export to directory B (I must have missed this as I always clicked on the "Page" button or it was selected by default) 6. When I click "Page" or "Drawing" (or the dialog was set to one of these when closed) the output filename is reset to point to directory A (as stored in inkscape:export-filename in the svg)
By the way, isn't this a bug?
Also, why to store the whole path in svg if saving to the same directory is desired?
Regards, Martin Sucha
participants (10)
-
unknown＠example.com -
Alex Trujillo -
Alexandre Prokoudine -
Ivan Louette -
john cliff -
Joshua Facemyer -
Mark T -
Martin Sucha -
Stuart Edwards -
Thorsten Wilms