6:31 p.m.
While I'm thinking about it, what SVG version should we indicate in our
output?
If we are including SVG 1.2 features like the flow text stuff, don't we
almost have to bump the version number to 1.2?
-mental
9:23 a.m.
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, MenTaLguY wrote:
While I'm thinking about it, what SVG version should we indicate
in our
output?
If we are including SVG 1.2 features like the flow text stuff, don't we
almost have to bump the version number to 1.2?
If it would require a 1.2-compliant viewer to view the file, then yeah
sorta sounds like you'd want to list it as 1.2. However, will this
cause conflicts with other software that may reject SVG 1.2 ? If not,
then yeah, couldn't hurt to bump it.
Btw, is there an early version of the SVG spec that we support 100%?
Bryce
4:33 a.m.
On Thu, 2004-11-25 at 16:23 -0800, Bryce Harrington wrote:
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, MenTaLguY wrote:
> While I'm thinking about it, what SVG version should we indicate in our
> output?
>
> If we are including SVG 1.2 features like the flow text stuff, don't we
> almost have to bump the version number to 1.2?
If it would require a 1.2-compliant viewer to view the file, then yeah
sorta sounds like you'd want to list it as 1.2. However, will this
cause conflicts with other software that may reject SVG 1.2 ? If not,
then yeah, couldn't hurt to bump it.
Btw, is there an early version of the SVG spec that we support 100%?
We talked before about SVG Tiny which is a subset of SVG 1.1:
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile/
We don't fully support this though yet...mainly because of lack of
support for the switch statement declaring multiple profiles.
Jon
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5:34 p.m.
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Jon Phillips wrote:
On Thu, 2004-11-25 at 16:23 -0800, Bryce Harrington wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, MenTaLguY wrote:
> Btw, is there an early version of the SVG spec that we support 100%?
We talked before about SVG Tiny which is a subset of SVG 1.1:
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile/
We don't fully support this though yet...mainly because of lack of
support for the switch statement declaring multiple profiles.
What do you think if we set a goal for 0.42 or 0.43 to fully support
100% of SVG Tiny? That'd be a nice feather in the cap to be able to
declare full compliance to one of the SVG specs.
Bryce
4:16 a.m.
Bryce Harrington wrote:
What do you think if we set a goal for 0.42 or 0.43 to fully support
100% of SVG Tiny? That'd be a nice feather in the cap to be able to
declare full compliance to one of the SVG specs.
Sounds good to me.
I can probably also pour on some effort for running through test cases
and whatnot to see where we match specs and where we need to tune
things. Between all the SVG test cases out there, and my experience
getting a solid XForms implementation done, I should be able to at least
get the paraneters set for the effort.
5:08 a.m.
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, Jon A. Cruz wrote:
Bryce Harrington wrote:
>What do you think if we set a goal for 0.42 or 0.43 to fully support
>100% of SVG Tiny? That'd be a nice feather in the cap to be able to
>declare full compliance to one of the SVG specs.
>
>
Sounds good to me.
I can probably also pour on some effort for running through test cases
and whatnot to see where we match specs and where we need to tune
things. Between all the SVG test cases out there, and my experience
getting a solid XForms implementation done, I should be able to at least
get the paraneters set for the effort.
Cool, sounds like a plan then. Peter did a good write-up of the major
capabilities we'd need. I think this'll be an excellent goal to shoot
for as a project.
Jon, using Peter's findings, could you plan out what changes need to be
implemented to achieve this, and fold them into the Roadmap win wiki?
Maybe shoot for having "most" items done by around 0.43, 99% by 0.44,
and 100% by 0.45. Don't try to be _too_ ambitious - give plenty of time
to do a good job. We've got several other equally important initiatives
that'll need work in the meantime.
My guess is that Animation will be the major gating item, but maybe
not. In any case, this is a frequent request from users so the need for
it for SVG Tiny means we can kill two birds. :-)
Bryce
5:16 a.m.
On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 00:34 -0800, Bryce Harrington wrote:
--
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(NEW) USA PH 510.499.0894
jon@...235...
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Jon Phillips wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-11-25 at 16:23 -0800, Bryce Harrington wrote:
> > On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, MenTaLguY wrote:
> > Btw, is there an early version of the SVG spec that we support 100%?
> We talked before about SVG Tiny which is a subset of SVG
1.1:
> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile/
> We don't fully support this though yet...mainly
because of lack of
> support for the switch statement declaring multiple profiles.
What do you think if we set a goal for 0.42 or 0.43 to fully support
100% of SVG Tiny? That'd be a nice feather in the cap to be able to
declare full compliance to one of the SVG specs.
I think sounds like a brilliant idea for 0.42 (a more stable release).
Maybe that could be a SVG Tiny + bugfix release.
With the strength of our developers, I think more general goals such as
SVG Tiny Compliance are good. After we have compliance with SVG Tiny, I
think we will be positioned to aid many new developers for SVG Tiny
development on cellphones.
ROCK!
Jon
7:06 a.m.
On Fri, 2004-11-26 at 03:34, Bryce Harrington wrote:
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Jon Phillips wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-11-25 at 16:23 -0800, Bryce Harrington wrote:
> > On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, MenTaLguY wrote:
> > Btw, is there an early version of the SVG spec that we support 100%?
>
> We talked before about SVG Tiny which is a subset of SVG 1.1:
> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile/
>
> We don't fully support this though yet...mainly because of lack of
> support for the switch statement declaring multiple profiles.
What do you think if we set a goal for 0.42 or 0.43 to fully support
100% of SVG Tiny? That'd be a nice feather in the cap to be able to
declare full compliance to one of the SVG specs.
I would strongly support such an initiative.
-mental
9:31 a.m.
New subject: full SVG Tiny support? (was SVG version?
On Fri, Nov 26, 2004 at 12:34:39AM -0800, Bryce Harrington wrote:
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Jon Phillips wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-11-25 at 16:23 -0800, Bryce Harrington wrote:
> > On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, MenTaLguY wrote:
> > Btw, is there an early version of the SVG spec that we support 100%?
>
> We talked before about SVG Tiny which is a subset of SVG 1.1:
> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile/
>
> We don't fully support this though yet...mainly because of lack of
> support for the switch statement declaring multiple profiles.
What do you think if we set a goal for 0.42 or 0.43 to fully support
100% of SVG Tiny? That'd be a nice feather in the cap to be able to
declare full compliance to one of the SVG specs.
As a first glance without looking much at either the spec or inkscape
source, I believe we need the following: don't rely on style attributes
working (use fill=... attributes); switch; SVG fonts; animation.
Styling
We must write `fill="..." etc. attributes instead of using
style="fill:...". (I.e. when writing SVG Tiny documents, we must
not use style attributes -- or at least use only "redundant"
style attributes if that's easier to implement.)
switch Minimum requirement is that we render it correctly (e.g. as a
viewer would, showing just one child). Interface for viewing other
branches would be nice (perhaps a non-modal dialog box listing the
children named by their requiredFeatures, requiredExtensions and
systemLanguage attributes. The layers dialog box may be a good
base.
SVG fonts: font, font-face, font-face-src, font-face-name,
missing-glyph, glyph
massifr has started work on this. He's still new to inkscape
source code, so could use guidance.
a Especially relevant to Inkview. For Inkscape (editor), ability
to launch URLs from the context menu might be nice but not
essential. An ability to create <a> elements other than using the
XML editor would also be nice.
Animation: animate, animateColor, animateMotion, animateTransform,
mpath, set
My reading is that we can't claim to support all of SVG Tiny
without supporting animation.
Easier in a viewer than in an editor... For editing interface,
Brisgeek says that Macromedia Flash is a good example. He couldn't
off hand think of free software examples, but mentioned Moho as a
gratis-but-non-free example. (Written in Java.)
F4L is a non-functional free-software mock-up of the Flash 4 interface.
Of course we should search for existing relevant free software.
For advanced stuff (research territory), we may be able to work
with the project Opera people at INRIA, possibly working with the
Madeus editor. (I mention this example only because our group at
Monash has worked with them before.)
(I believe we don't need to do anything to support the foreignObject
element. We already have the property of not discarding unrecognized
elements like foreignObject and its children.)
pjrm.
10:38 a.m.
New subject: full SVG Tiny support? (was SVG version?
a Especially relevant to Inkview. For Inkscape (editor), ability
to launch URLs from the context menu might be nice but not
essential. An ability to create <a> elements other than using
the XML editor would also be nice.
right click on an object, then do create link. creates an a for you on
that object.
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11:07 a.m.
New subject: full SVG Tiny support? (was SVG version?
Peter Moulder wrote:
Easier in a viewer than in an editor... For editing interface,
Brisgeek says that Macromedia Flash is a good example. He couldn't
off hand think of free software examples, but mentioned Moho as a
gratis-but-non-free example. (Written in Java.)
F4L is a non-functional free-software mock-up of the Flash 4 interface.
Of course we should search for existing relevant free software.
I've worked with quite a few interfaces over the years, including owning
Macromind Director 1.0 and being a beta tester on Macromind 3D, using
Strata3D, Autodesk 3D Studio, Max, Maya, etc.
Getting an interface together well probably not be *that* hard. Knowing
the domain enough to figure out what needs to be coded is where most of
the work lies.
Good news is... we don't have to make the UI backwards-compatible with
Director 1.0 :-)
1:17 p.m.
New subject: full SVG Tiny support? (was SVG version?
On Sat, Nov 27, 2004 at 11:31:31AM +1100, Peter Moulder wrote:
Animation: animate, animateColor, animateMotion, animateTransform,
mpath, set
http://wam.inrialpes.fr/software/limsee2/
SMIL editor. Unfortunately non-free (despite the claim on the web
site): claims not to allow commercial use.
In practice I doubt this is only partially enforceable legally: use
isn't covered by copyright law, so only people who copy or distribute it
(or any other action covered by copyright law) need to abstain from
using it commercially. I'll see what their plans are and whether they
can change their minds. The fact that they claim open-sourceness
suggests a certain willingness for it actually to be open source.
pjrm.
3:59 p.m.
New subject: full SVG Tiny support? (was SVG version?
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004, Peter Moulder wrote:
On Sat, Nov 27, 2004 at 11:31:31AM +1100, Peter Moulder wrote:
> Animation: animate, animateColor, animateMotion, animateTransform,
> mpath, set
http://wam.inrialpes.fr/software/limsee2/
SMIL editor. Unfortunately non-free (despite the claim on the web
site): claims not to allow commercial use.
In practice I doubt this is only partially enforceable legally: use
isn't covered by copyright law, so only people who copy or distribute it
(or any other action covered by copyright law) need to abstain from
using it commercially. I'll see what their plans are and whether they
can change their minds. The fact that they claim open-sourceness
suggests a certain willingness for it actually to be open source.
It's definitely worth a shot. Make sure to specifically ask if the code
can be used under the terms of the GPL. Let them know that we're
interested in incorporating SMIL animation into Inkscape.
If they say no to that usage, ask if they'd have any problem if we were
to clone/reimplement it in C++ for Inkscape, without using their code
directly.
That's a really sweet editor, it'd kick ass if we could have that level
of capability within Inkscape. :-)
Bryce
4:07 p.m.
New subject: full SVG Tiny support? (was SVG version?
On Sat, 2004-11-27 at 22:59 -0800, Bryce Harrington wrote:
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004, Peter Moulder wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 27, 2004 at 11:31:31AM +1100, Peter Moulder wrote:
> > Animation: animate, animateColor, animateMotion, animateTransform,
> > mpath, set
>
> http://wam.inrialpes.fr/software/limsee2/
>
> SMIL editor. Unfortunately non-free (despite the claim on the web
> site): claims not to allow commercial use.
>
> In practice I doubt this is only partially enforceable legally: use
> isn't covered by copyright law, so only people who copy or distribute it
> (or any other action covered by copyright law) need to abstain from
> using it commercially. I'll see what their plans are and whether they
> can change their minds. The fact that they claim open-sourceness
> suggests a certain willingness for it actually to be open source.
It's definitely worth a shot. Make sure to specifically ask if the code
can be used under the terms of the GPL. Let them know that we're
interested in incorporating SMIL animation into Inkscape.
If they say no to that usage, ask if they'd have any problem if we were
to clone/reimplement it in C++ for Inkscape, without using their code
directly.
Well, if you look on the site, the app. is all in JAVA!!! Maybe there is
a C or C++ OSS framework or smil editor already. We don't wanna add JAVA
into our codebase do we?
That's a really sweet editor, it'd kick ass if we could have
that level
of capability within Inkscape. :-)
Yes agree. I like the website minus how it doesn't expand with the page.
jon
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Inkscape (http://inkscape.org)
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3:15 a.m.
New subject: full SVG Tiny support? (was SVG version?
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004, Jon Phillips wrote:
On Sat, 2004-11-27 at 22:59 -0800, Bryce Harrington wrote:
> If they say no to that usage, ask if they'd have any problem if we were
> to clone/reimplement it in C++ for Inkscape, without using their code
> directly.
Well, if you look on the site, the app. is all in JAVA!!! Maybe there is
a C or C++ OSS framework or smil editor already. We don't wanna add JAVA
into our codebase do we?
Yes, but a few thoughts on that:
If they are willing to cooperate closely with us, and can do GPL and be
willing to change to integrate with Inkscape, that may be the best case
situation - they'd have the responsibility for maintaining and
developing that section of code, yet we'd be able to fully benefit from
it. If they're maintaining it and it works well with Inkscape, then
the language it's written in may not be that big of a deal to us.
On the other hand, if they're willing to let us use it under GPL but are
not willing to do anything particular to help us, we still benefit.
It's been my experience in the past that translating an application from
one language to another requires a fraction of the work that creating it
from scratch does. _Especially_ Java->C++ or vice versa. Most of the
trouble would be replacing libs.
If they're not willing to provide GPL licensing and won't be adapting it
for Inkscape's use, we can still lift ideas from it.
Bryce
5:10 a.m.
New subject: full SVG Tiny support? (was SVG version?
Bryce Harrington wrote:
Yes, but a few thoughts on that:
If they are willing to cooperate closely with us, and can do GPL and be
willing to change to integrate with Inkscape, that may be the best case
situation - they'd have the responsibility for maintaining and
developing that section of code, yet we'd be able to fully benefit from
it. If they're maintaining it and it works well with Inkscape, then
the language it's written in may not be that big of a deal to us.
Well... in looking over things, I don't think there's that much that can
be leveraged.
There's enough difference in how AWT/Swing is archetected versus GTK+,
internal representations, DOM, etc. Also, what's needed to get animation
going is conceptually not to much different from what we have now. In
extending things to handle plugins and external scripting, we are also
doing a lot of what's needed for animation.
The main work will be in UI elements, which again would have to be
re-coded to do in GTK+ anyway. Of course, as long as we make our XML
tree view reusable and things like that, we can get things tuned up
nicely a little faster.
2:24 p.m.
New subject: full SVG Tiny support? (was SVG version?
This is an excellent list to start from. I've added this to Wiki:
http://inkscape.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?SVG_Tiny_Compliance
Bryce
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004, Peter Moulder wrote:
On Fri, Nov 26, 2004 at 12:34:39AM -0800, Bryce Harrington wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Jon Phillips wrote:
> > On Thu, 2004-11-25 at 16:23 -0800, Bryce Harrington wrote:
> > > On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, MenTaLguY wrote:
> > > Btw, is there an early version of the SVG spec that we support 100%?
> >
> > We talked before about SVG Tiny which is a subset of SVG 1.1:
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile/
> >
> > We don't fully support this though yet...mainly because of lack of
> > support for the switch statement declaring multiple profiles.
>
> What do you think if we set a goal for 0.42 or 0.43 to fully support
> 100% of SVG Tiny? That'd be a nice feather in the cap to be able to
> declare full compliance to one of the SVG specs.
As a first glance without looking much at either the spec or inkscape
source, I believe we need the following: don't rely on style attributes
working (use fill=... attributes); switch; SVG fonts; animation.
Styling
We must write `fill="..." etc. attributes instead of using
style="fill:...". (I.e. when writing SVG Tiny documents, we must
not use style attributes -- or at least use only "redundant"
style attributes if that's easier to implement.)
switch Minimum requirement is that we render it correctly (e.g. as a
viewer would, showing just one child). Interface for viewing other
branches would be nice (perhaps a non-modal dialog box listing the
children named by their requiredFeatures, requiredExtensions and
systemLanguage attributes. The layers dialog box may be a good
base.
SVG fonts: font, font-face, font-face-src, font-face-name,
missing-glyph, glyph
massifr has started work on this. He's still new to inkscape
source code, so could use guidance.
a Especially relevant to Inkview. For Inkscape (editor), ability
to launch URLs from the context menu might be nice but not
essential. An ability to create <a> elements other than using the
XML editor would also be nice.
Animation: animate, animateColor, animateMotion, animateTransform,
mpath, set
My reading is that we can't claim to support all of SVG Tiny
without supporting animation.
Easier in a viewer than in an editor... For editing interface,
Brisgeek says that Macromedia Flash is a good example. He couldn't
off hand think of free software examples, but mentioned Moho as a
gratis-but-non-free example. (Written in Java.)
F4L is a non-functional free-software mock-up of the Flash 4 interface.
Of course we should search for existing relevant free software.
For advanced stuff (research territory), we may be able to work
with the project Opera people at INRIA, possibly working with the
Madeus editor. (I mention this example only because our group at
Monash has worked with them before.)
(I believe we don't need to do anything to support the foreignObject
element. We already have the property of not discarding unrecognized
elements like foreignObject and its children.)
pjrm.
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5:26 p.m.
On Thu, 2004-11-25 at 19:23, Bryce Harrington wrote:
If it would require a 1.2-compliant viewer to view the file, then
yeah
sorta sounds like you'd want to list it as 1.2. However, will this
cause conflicts with other software that may reject SVG 1.2 ? If not,
then yeah, couldn't hurt to bump it.
I guess for now, since we're in freeze, the best thing to do is pick a
version of SVG that encompasses all the features accessible from the
GUI.
At present, we declare our SVGs to be version 1.0. Are there any
1.1-specific features we use? If not, we can probably leave things
as-is for this release at least.
-mental
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inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org
17 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
Bryce Harrington -
John Cliff -
Jon A. Cruz -
Jon Phillips -
MenTaLguY -
Peter Moulder