Great :)

I think, in this context, it makes sense to also link to the thread on the translators mailing list, where many of us have already been discussing the issue, and started to investigate options.

https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/inkscape-translator/thread/CAPOH7...

Victor (who initiated the thread) has already written about his findings about Sphinx there, and he also linked to a list on github, where different documentation systems are listed (sorry, your latest email is still on my todo list, Victor).

Elisa has mentioned the Booktype instance of flossmanualsfr, as far as I remember.

Regards, Maren

Am 29.04.2017 um 00:17 schrieb Martin Owens:

On Sat, 2017-04-29 at 00:01 +0200, Maren Hachmann wrote:

...

Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?

The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as it might be later on.

Agreed.

I've moved everything around and re-added the members to the group.

Project is now: https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs/manuals Group is now: https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs

Best Regards, Martin Owens

Am 29.04.2017 um 10:05 schrieb C R:

I have requested access to the gitlab repo. Once allowed, I'll drop a Scribus document in there with a cover, and the master pages with some initial styling for the document. I'll also do a README file with an initial layout/contents proposal based on some of the ideas here.

To my mind, the most useful thing would be getting an inkscape quick-start guide going as the preface. This way users can start making use of the document right away.

We may also want to publish each section of the book as a pdf as we go along, so users don't have to clone our repos just to get the information. :)

Contributors should also be aware that it's not okay to copy/paste content from blogs, tutorials, etc. For this document, everything must be re-written from scratch, and all screen captures, graphics etc. must be of our own making and cc0 (public domain). Anyone not interested in contributing 100% public domain content, should not contribute to this project.

- For a printable book, this sounds like a good idea :D

For a more 'scientific' manual, I think it's not suitable to do this in Scribus, and that we should turn to a proven documentation software.

I've heard that Scribus performance drops dramatically with the number of pages. How would you go about translatating the book?

I strongly disagree with CC0 - I would only contribute to something that where attribution and copyleft are honored. It's fine to pull content from properly licenced sources, imho, too. There are quick start guides with good licences - this would make the process a lot faster, if it wouldn't need to be written from scratch, but only modified. So yeah, count me out :)

Maren

-C

On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 12:01 AM, Maren Hachmann <maren@...3165...> wrote:

...

Great :)

I think, in this context, it makes sense to also link to the thread on the translators mailing list, where many of us have already been discussing the issue, and started to investigate options.

https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/inkscape-translator/thread/CAPOH7...

Victor (who initiated the thread) has already written about his findings about Sphinx there, and he also linked to a list on github, where different documentation systems are listed (sorry, your latest email is still on my todo list, Victor).

Elisa has mentioned the Booktype instance of flossmanualsfr, as far as I remember.

Regards, Maren

Am 29.04.2017 um 00:17 schrieb Martin Owens:

...

On Sat, 2017-04-29 at 00:01 +0200, Maren Hachmann wrote:

...

Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?

The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as it might be later on.

Agreed.

I've moved everything around and re-added the members to the group.

Project is now: https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs/manuals Group is now: https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs

Best Regards, Martin Owens

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Contributors should also be aware that it's not okay to copy/paste content from blogs, tutorials, etc. For this document, everything must be re-written from scratch, and all screen captures, graphics etc. must be of our own making and cc0 (public domain). Anyone not interested in contributing 100% public domain content, should not contribute to this project.

- For a printable book, this sounds like a good idea :D

For a more 'scientific' manual, I think it's not suitable to do this in Scribus, and that we should turn to a proven documentation software.

I'm open to suggestions, as long as it's FLOSS.

Scribus can export to lots of different digital formats as well.

I've heard that Scribus performance drops dramatically with the number of pages. How would you go about translatating the book?

I would have translators do it in Scribus.

I strongly disagree with CC0 - I would only contribute to something that where attribution and copyleft are honored.

Why does content in an inkscape manual need attribution? Contents are more useful if cc0.

It's fine to pull content from properly licenced sources, imho, too.

I disagree. This would create a tangle of licenses and attribution requirements that will make the contents less usable in/by other projects. We should remove the burden of attribution where possible.

There are quick start guides with good licences - this would make the process a lot faster, if it wouldn't need to be written from scratch, but only modified. So yeah, count me out :)

Maren

-C

On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 12:01 AM, Maren Hachmann <maren@...3165...> wrote:

...

Great :)

I think, in this context, it makes sense to also link to the thread on the translators mailing list, where many of us have already been discussing the issue, and started to investigate options.

https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/inkscape-

translator/thread/CAPOH7%3DZn3sWhZ%3D1DDB-1FUp%2BQUZzrLmyy7iOFiL1VcfY0maG9g% 40mail.gmail.com/#msg35807172

...

Victor (who initiated the thread) has already written about his findings about Sphinx there, and he also linked to a list on github, where different documentation systems are listed (sorry, your latest email is still on my todo list, Victor).

Elisa has mentioned the Booktype instance of flossmanualsfr, as far as I remember.

Regards, Maren

Am 29.04.2017 um 00:17 schrieb Martin Owens:

...

On Sat, 2017-04-29 at 00:01 +0200, Maren Hachmann wrote:

...

Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?

The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as it might be later on.

Agreed.

I've moved everything around and re-added the members to the group.

Project is now: https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs/manuals Group is now: https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs

Best Regards, Martin Owens

---

------------------

...

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I guess I don't understand why this project needs protecting. It's a manual for Inkscape. Do we really need "attribution" for screen captures and UI graphics? I also don't understand why people need perpetual credit for contributions, graphics or otherwise.

But far be it from me to impose my own project vision on this community effort. I'll leave it to others to handle it.

-C

On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 4:29 PM, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:

...

It's fine to pull content from properly licenced sources, imho, too.

I disagree. This would create a tangle of licenses and attribution requirements that will make the contents less usable in/by other projects. We should remove the burden of attribution where possible.

It doesn't have to be a tangle if you set out the rules from the start. Copyleft exists to protect projects and attribution exists to give authors credit for their hard work.

A CC-BY-SA project should be doable. But I'm hoping to examples of situations where educational materials were harmed by choosing an attribution style license.

(also, if it's in a repository, the "who wrote what" becomes a bit easier)

As for pulling in content from outside. Ask. Firstly ask if the author would like their work included, then ask if they could relicense their work to whatever is needed and then finally if the other two were met with enthusiasm, ask them to join the team. :-)

Best Regards, Martin Owens

On Sat, 2017-04-29 at 07:19 -0600, brynn wrote:

As far as I understand, all that's needed is an English translation of...well I  can't find a link to the French version.  Here's a link to whatever has been  translated already:  https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/introduction/

No, that's not licensed. We can't and shouldn't use it until it has a known and open license.

Unfortunately there are going to be lots of good resources that we just can't use.

But you can use "the idea" of the content. So having similar sections and covering similar ground.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

Sure, I'm all for having a work-around section. We can patch it later when problems are fixed so the workarounds are no longer required.

Of particular use might be workflow suggestions for print and web. The issue is, even long time users of Inkscape might be doing things in an inefficient way.

It would probably be worth including most of the above in a "best practices" section.

-C

On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 6:39 PM, Miguel Lopez <reptillia39@...3425...> wrote:

I want to put out something regarding documentations. What about workarounds to Inkscape limitations as part of the documentation? Some users really need some answers to the limitation of Inkscape. There's another idea I have in mind. For making tutorials shorter, we can use existing tutorials of our own and linking to them as part of advanced section of Inkscape tutorials. Advanced users should already know the program in and out to know how to apply them for advanced rendering. Some of those might need workarounds though.

My only issue with those workaround is the amount of time they require, and the tax on limited resources. Otherwise, if those weren't a issue, they would be fantastic though they're still not a replacement to what other programs has to offer. I can offer making workaround docs if anyone wants me to show how to work around Inkscape limits.

For example :

1. Gradient Stroke -

1a) Method 1 (If profile line aren't needed) - Duplicate and then adjust stroke width, and then convert to path. Every strokes must be converted to path. You copy and paste the path that is going to get removed by applying the path difference. You repeat the process, and then you get every individual stroke which can be colored as however you please.

1b) Method 2 (If profile line is needed) You apply the same thing to the above, but you are not going to use stroke width. Instead, you are going to use power stroke to emulate profile line with gradient stroke.

2. Realistic Rendering of convulated objects like a shoe.

2a) This involves series of clipping, blurring, gradient mesh and brushing. Right now, Inkscape users can only use gradient mesh for basic overall lighting, and some bit of coloring using filtering since gradient mesh is underdeveloped in Inkscape. You apply blur to brushes in order to emulate shading. Doing this a lot can give very sastifying result within Inkscape, but also drains so much of rendering speed within Inkscape even with a powerful computer. But results are literally comparable to raster programs, and in some way even better because well, it's scalable.

3. The lack of warp tool for textures workaround

3a) As of now, we do have lattice tool, and the tweak liquifying tool. Those two can be used as a workaround to the lack of warp tool. Lattice deformation tool should had the option of allowing users to tweak the tangency line though instead of the tangency line being tangent to the horizontal and vertical direction. This is not something that can have a decent workaround since it requires duplicating so many objects and then tweaking it would be a major pain. For complicated textures, it can't be done within Inkscape unless you have a infinite amount of time and resource, and as we all know that's not possible.

4. For people who have trouble with tangency snapping (I'm one of

those), and no that snapping option does not help one bit.

4a) The obvious workaround involves using the show handles. You can make tangent line utilizing the result of the show handles LPE. Also, this enables users to be able to create perpendicular, and tangent spiro path.

5. The lack of ease regarding manipulating mask/clip

5a) The workaround to this is well, using the clone as the masking/clipping source while retaining the original for clipping/masking at another location. This workaround works because you can always manipulate the source object, and hide it. It is almost exactly like as if you were manipulating transparency mask within Krita or Photoshop or GIMP. After testing it, it's beautiful really when you change between layer/group.

6. PDF export limitation

6a) The obvious workaround here is well, export to png and then convert to pdf. Of course, some rasterization would be needed if one has to convert to pdf, literally at times.

I think those are the 6 issues that could be addressed via docs tutorial for those who are desperate to find a solution to those. They can always resort to Krita for those (except 6 because pdf export is not planned), but that's not a option if they have to create a vector render. If there's anything I miss regarding workarounds, lemme know. I can probably add more workarounds if I miss anything as I know the program in and out from a user perspective.

On 4/29/2017 11:54 AM, C R wrote:

...

...

I don't mean to slow anyone's roll here. But wouldn't it make more sense to put any kind of energy towards documentation into the much discussed, direly needed, user-focused, step by step manual? Rather than starting from scratch on a whole different kind of project?

Yea, this actually makes a lot of sense as a first step.

...

There are many books out there already, which amount to a series of tutorials. It's not a bad thing. I just think this kind of project is better suited for a single author, or maybe a small team. And I think the project needs the manual much, more more than the community needs another book of tutorials.

I agree. I think the book could be a lot of things in one. But I agree with finishing what we already have before starting something new.

...

As far as I understand, all that's needed is an English translation of...well can't find a link to the French version. Here's a link to whatever has been translated already: https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/introduction/

I can't help with translation, unfortunately. But I'd like to see this finished. So +1 for the suggestion.

...

Once we have the translation, we'll be off and running to update and finish it! By the way, is there anything those of us who can't translate, can do, to help the translators?

I volunteer to help this effort in what ways are needed.

...

And won't such a new book of tutorials have to be published? A big obstacle to writing any book is getting it published. You almost have to have an invitation from a publisher to be certain a book will get published. Or publish it yourself, which is not easy eitiher.

Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways, opened in browsers, laptops, eReaders, or just printed out. We could sell printed copies along with other Inkscape stuff. Maybe copies signed by members of the project would be kinda cool. No idea what the market is for it, but the idea that we could do all of these at once is attractive, and why I recommend Scribus.

-C

...

Just my opinion :-)

brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 4:01 PM To: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?

The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as it might be later on.

Maren

...

Am 28.04.2017 um 16:14 schrieb Martin Owens:

...

On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote:

...

I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd like. It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack of time/hands involved.

Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably be a github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases.

Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris.

Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, there should be a button to join:

https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs

And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put:

https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals

I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have something "complete" but have something small produced.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

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...

Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways,....

Yes, I understand that. But I thought Victor was talking about a hardback book, like at the link he provided. That kind of book is hard to get published, unless you have some prior agreement with a publisher. At least that's my understanding.

We can self-publish, but we'd have to order a thousand copies, which would take some startup funds. I don't think hardback would be necessary. In fact, I don't imagine printing is necessary. We could render out a nice illustration of the book, with "ebook" under it, and people can enjoy the aesthetic without downing a bunch of trees to make physical copies of the manual. Virtual copies have great things like hyperlinks, and text search capabilities. So there are more benefits to having a digital copy anyway.

Somewhere in this thread was some discussion about licensing. If this is to be a hardback book (old fashioned way of publishing) *to me* it makes more sense to carry a copyright.

The only requirement for a published physical book is an isbn number (for product catalog, and inventory purposes). The license of the book, as I understand it, is left completely open to the authors. We would not have this published by a company interested in owning the copyright, of course.

As far as I understand, publishers take a cut of sales. And if it's a public domain content, there wouldn't be many sales. It seems like it would make it even harder to find a publisher.

A publisher isn't necessary for this project, assuming the content is what's important. If we want book sales out of this, that's the point where it will become an issue.

I don't know, maybe I'm old and old fashioned. But the FLOSS manual, on the other hand, certainly should be either public domain, or CC-BY-NC-SA might be better. Whatever it needs to have, to allow the community to edit.

All I can guarantee is that my contributions will be public domain. :)

This is probably a bad idea. But I'm trying to think outside the box. What if I (or other non-French-speaker) took one of the French pages, and sent it through the public google and/or bing translators. I know those are far from perfect. (Sooooo far!) But since I know Inkscape, it seems like it would give me enough of a clue what it's about, to be able to write it properly in English.

Well, translation plus proof-reading is fine I'd think. It's not like the subject matter would be alien to you. :) Fact is, you could easily re-write from scratch the missing sections in English, then we would be able to use it in our own "official" Inkscape manual too.

Then maybe the translators can proof read it, to make sure something important wasn't missed? Proof reading would seem to be much less time-consuming for them.

Would that work??

All best, brynn

As I understand it, the Inkscape Project has nothing to do with flossmanuals, so perhaps it's beyond the scope of this project.

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 9:54 AM To: brynn Cc: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List ; Maren Hachmann ; Victor Westmann

Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

...

I don't mean to slow anyone's roll here. But wouldn't it make more sense to put any kind of energy towards documentation into the much discussed, direly needed, user-focused, step by step manual? Rather than starting from scratch on a whole different kind of project?

Yea, this actually makes a lot of sense as a first step.

...

There are many books out there already, which amount to a series of tutorials. It's not a bad thing. I just think this kind of project is better suited for a single author, or maybe a small team. And I think the project needs the manual much, more more than the community needs another book of tutorials.

I agree. I think the book could be a lot of things in one. But I agree with finishing what we already have before starting something new.

...

As far as I understand, all that's needed is an English translation of...well can't find a link to the French version. Here's a link to whatever has been translated already: https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/introduction/

I can't help with translation, unfortunately. But I'd like to see this finished. So +1 for the suggestion.

...

Once we have the translation, we'll be off and running to update and finish it! By the way, is there anything those of us who can't translate, can do, to help the translators?

I volunteer to help this effort in what ways are needed.

...

And won't such a new book of tutorials have to be published? A big obstacle to writing any book is getting it published. You almost have to have an invitation from a publisher to be certain a book will get published. Or publish it yourself, which is not easy eitiher.

Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways, opened in browsers, laptops, eReaders, or just printed out. We could sell printed copies along with other Inkscape stuff. Maybe copies signed by members of the project would be kinda cool. No idea what the market is for it, but the idea that we could do all of these at once is attractive, and why I recommend Scribus.

-C

...

Just my opinion :-)

brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 4:01 PM To: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?

The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as it might be later on.

Maren

...

Am 28.04.2017 um 16:14 schrieb Martin Owens:

...

On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote:

...

I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd like. It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack of time/hands involved.

Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably be a github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases.

Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris.

Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, there should be a button to join:

https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs

And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put:

https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals

I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have something "complete" but have something small produced.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

---

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Hi all,

oh, wow, I've just been offline for a couple of hours - wouldn't have expected that, if finally someone gives the 'go' for a manual, there would be such a huge echo (we've been discussing this on and off for a /very/ long time already). That's just cool :D

Just some comments to various things that were mentioned:

@CR: I think Scribus is a great tool for making the kind of graphical, polished, sellable, printable, book-with-columns-like structure which was linked in that very first link. For something that is really nice to look at, and is fun to read and touch.

I also think this is not the same as a manual, which should be quick to browse, quick to grasp, with lots of interlinks, with a file format suitable for version control (well, yes, Scribus is xml, I've been told, so it would be /readable/ - but those diffs are really ugly), with out-of-the-box automated generation of online versions of a manual - as can be done with tools like sphinx/readthedocs, doctype, and other tools specifically tailored for open source documentation + gitlab CI. You can take a look at the link from Victor's message to the mailing list, if you would like to know more: https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/message/35773618/

Even the booktype server of flossmanuals works with automation. Using one of those would also have the advantage that, once set up, this system could be used for both developer as well as user documentation (as Victor wrote in his post - and I agree with him).

As for the attribution, I think especially the book-like structure would profit from it, as I believe that artists may be more likely to contribute their drawings if those are - at least - credited to them.

Also, it would be good if things like the keyboard+mouse reference and other stuff we already have could be included. It's faster that way. Faster also means: quicker rewards. This is good if you want to have many contributors. Also, crediting people for their work is just something that makes them more willing to contribute (as stated above). CC-By would lose that, after the first iteration, as far as my understanding of the licence goes.

Some of the people involved in flossmanualsfr are also long-time contributors to and developers of Inkscape, so that's the relation.

The other, English, outdated, manual that you linked to, has been written by many of the 'old hands' in the Inkscape community - some of whom have moved on, and some of whom are still involved.

@doctormo: "FLOSS Manuals utilise la licence libre GPL pour l'ensemble de ses travaux." - translates to: all manuals on flossmanuals are under the GPL (don't ask which version, doesn't say there on that page. (https://www.flossmanualsfr.net/faq-floss-manuals-francophone/ch011_quest-ce-...).

@Brynn: if you want to help with the translation of that 'intro' book, you could, for example, make corresponding screenshots for it, of the English version. You could also get an account on that site, and explain to others who speak both French and English how it works, and what they would need to do to join. Or write a news article asking for translators who would like to help. Also, you could add a 'Credits' page at the end, which seems to be missing still. And, of course, you can proofread and edit. Sylvain has already translated quite a bit.

The NC licence is maybe a bit overprotective, but I'm all for crediting and having a manual be available for anyone who needs it. I personally wouldn't mind if someone prints and sells it and makes money with that. As long as that is not the only source of the book/manual, this doesn't cause me any worries.

I think google translate might cause more issues than solve them - but it has been getting better... I personally find that correcting a badly messed-up text which already gives me some 'scheme' tends to give worse translations, than when there is no scaffolding. It's because the machine translation is kind of giving the direction. It may be faster, but the translation sounds less natural.

@jazzynico or Elisa: Can you tell us the specific flossmanuals licence? GPLv2 or 3? Or, if not specified, do you know which version it would use then, legally? Does Booktype use any kind of version control that is compatible with git? What is the source file format?

@Miguel: yes, we're discussing those workarounds (and many others) on the forums on a regular basis. It would certainly be cool if someone could compile the 'Tips + Tricks' (sounds better than workarounds?) to make up a separate section in the manual, or even a separate manual by its own.

(sorry for the long post, there was a lot to reply to :D)

Maren

Am 29.04.2017 um 21:22 schrieb C R:

Also this: http://write.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/

On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 8:04 PM, C R <cajhne@...400...> wrote:

...

...

...

Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways,....

Yes, I understand that. But I thought Victor was talking about a hardback book, like at the link he provided. That kind of book is hard to get published, unless you have some prior agreement with a publisher. At least that's my understanding.

We can self-publish, but we'd have to order a thousand copies, which would take some startup funds. I don't think hardback would be necessary. In fact, I don't imagine printing is necessary. We could render out a nice illustration of the book, with "ebook" under it, and people can enjoy the aesthetic without downing a bunch of trees to make physical copies of the manual. Virtual copies have great things like hyperlinks, and text search capabilities. So there are more benefits to having a digital copy anyway.

...

Somewhere in this thread was some discussion about licensing. If this is to be a hardback book (old fashioned way of publishing) *to me* it makes more sense to carry a copyright.

The only requirement for a published physical book is an isbn number (for product catalog, and inventory purposes). The license of the book, as I understand it, is left completely open to the authors. We would not have this published by a company interested in owning the copyright, of course.

...

As far as I understand, publishers take a cut of sales. And if it's a public domain content, there wouldn't be many sales. It seems like it would make it even harder to find a publisher.

A publisher isn't necessary for this project, assuming the content is what's important. If we want book sales out of this, that's the point where it will become an issue.

...

I don't know, maybe I'm old and old fashioned. But the FLOSS manual, on the other hand, certainly should be either public domain, or CC-BY-NC-SA might be better. Whatever it needs to have, to allow the community to edit.

All I can guarantee is that my contributions will be public domain. :)

...

This is probably a bad idea. But I'm trying to think outside the box. What if I (or other non-French-speaker) took one of the French pages, and sent it through the public google and/or bing translators. I know those are far from perfect. (Sooooo far!) But since I know Inkscape, it seems like it would give me enough of a clue what it's about, to be able to write it properly in English.

Well, translation plus proof-reading is fine I'd think. It's not like the subject matter would be alien to you. :) Fact is, you could easily re-write from scratch the missing sections in English, then we would be able to use it in our own "official" Inkscape manual too.

...

Then maybe the translators can proof read it, to make sure something important wasn't missed? Proof reading would seem to be much less time-consuming for them.

Would that work??

All best, brynn

As I understand it, the Inkscape Project has nothing to do with flossmanuals, so perhaps it's beyond the scope of this project.

...

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 9:54 AM To: brynn Cc: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List ; Maren Hachmann ; Victor Westmann

Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

...

I don't mean to slow anyone's roll here. But wouldn't it make more sense to put any kind of energy towards documentation into the much discussed, direly needed, user-focused, step by step manual? Rather than starting from scratch on a whole different kind of project?

Yea, this actually makes a lot of sense as a first step.

...

There are many books out there already, which amount to a series of tutorials. It's not a bad thing. I just think this kind of project is better suited for a single author, or maybe a small team. And I think the project needs the manual much, more more than the community needs another book of tutorials.

I agree. I think the book could be a lot of things in one. But I agree with finishing what we already have before starting something new.

...

As far as I understand, all that's needed is an English translation of...well can't find a link to the French version. Here's a link to whatever has been translated already: https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/introduction/

I can't help with translation, unfortunately. But I'd like to see this finished. So +1 for the suggestion.

...

Once we have the translation, we'll be off and running to update and finish it! By the way, is there anything those of us who can't translate, can do, to help the translators?

I volunteer to help this effort in what ways are needed.

...

And won't such a new book of tutorials have to be published? A big obstacle to writing any book is getting it published. You almost have to have an invitation from a publisher to be certain a book will get published. Or publish it yourself, which is not easy eitiher.

Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways, opened in browsers, laptops, eReaders, or just printed out. We could sell printed copies along with other Inkscape stuff. Maybe copies signed by members of the project would be kinda cool. No idea what the market is for it, but the idea that we could do all of these at once is attractive, and why I recommend Scribus.

-C

...

Just my opinion :-)

brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 4:01 PM To: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?

The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as it might be later on.

Maren

...

Am 28.04.2017 um 16:14 schrieb Martin Owens:

...

On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote: > > I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's > what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd > like. > It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack > of time/hands involved. > > Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably be a > github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what > needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases.

Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris.

Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, there should be a button to join:

https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs

And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put:

https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals

I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have something "complete" but have something small produced.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

---

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Hi Miguel,

I think this is a GREAT advantage for the entire Inkscape project. It makes all the sense of the world to help users do all the needed workarounds and, if they want, help send funds to the project ($$) and/or a bug request on Gitlab(is it at Gitlab really?).

Amazing. The more transparent we are (and we really are) the better.

--Victor Westmann

2017-04-29 10:39 GMT-07:00 Miguel Lopez <reptillia39@...3425...>:

I want to put out something regarding documentations. What about workarounds to Inkscape limitations as part of the documentation? Some users really need some answers to the limitation of Inkscape. There's another idea I have in mind. For making tutorials shorter, we can use existing tutorials of our own and linking to them as part of advanced section of Inkscape tutorials. Advanced users should already know the program in and out to know how to apply them for advanced rendering. Some of those might need workarounds though.

My only issue with those workaround is the amount of time they require, and the tax on limited resources. Otherwise, if those weren't a issue, they would be fantastic though they're still not a replacement to what other programs has to offer. I can offer making workaround docs if anyone wants me to show how to work around Inkscape limits.

For example :

1. Gradient Stroke -

1a) Method 1 (If profile line aren't needed) - Duplicate and then adjust stroke width, and then convert to path. Every strokes must be converted to path. You copy and paste the path that is going to get removed by applying the path difference. You repeat the process, and then you get every individual stroke which can be colored as however you please.

1b) Method 2 (If profile line is needed) You apply the same thing to the above, but you are not going to use stroke width. Instead, you are going to use power stroke to emulate profile line with gradient stroke.

2. Realistic Rendering of convulated objects like a shoe.

2a) This involves series of clipping, blurring, gradient mesh and brushing. Right now, Inkscape users can only use gradient mesh for basic overall lighting, and some bit of coloring using filtering since gradient mesh is underdeveloped in Inkscape. You apply blur to brushes in order to emulate shading. Doing this a lot can give very sastifying result within Inkscape, but also drains so much of rendering speed within Inkscape even with a powerful computer. But results are literally comparable to raster programs, and in some way even better because well, it's scalable.

3. The lack of warp tool for textures workaround

3a) As of now, we do have lattice tool, and the tweak liquifying tool. Those two can be used as a workaround to the lack of warp tool. Lattice deformation tool should had the option of allowing users to tweak the tangency line though instead of the tangency line being tangent to the horizontal and vertical direction. This is not something that can have a decent workaround since it requires duplicating so many objects and then tweaking it would be a major pain. For complicated textures, it can't be done within Inkscape unless you have a infinite amount of time and resource, and as we all know that's not possible.

4. For people who have trouble with tangency snapping (I'm one of

those), and no that snapping option does not help one bit.

4a) The obvious workaround involves using the show handles. You can make tangent line utilizing the result of the show handles LPE. Also, this enables users to be able to create perpendicular, and tangent spiro path.

5. The lack of ease regarding manipulating mask/clip

5a) The workaround to this is well, using the clone as the masking/clipping source while retaining the original for clipping/masking at another location. This workaround works because you can always manipulate the source object, and hide it. It is almost exactly like as if you were manipulating transparency mask within Krita or Photoshop or GIMP. After testing it, it's beautiful really when you change between layer/group.

6. PDF export limitation

6a) The obvious workaround here is well, export to png and then convert to pdf. Of course, some rasterization would be needed if one has to convert to pdf, literally at times.

I think those are the 6 issues that could be addressed via docs tutorial for those who are desperate to find a solution to those. They can always resort to Krita for those (except 6 because pdf export is not planned), but that's not a option if they have to create a vector render. If there's anything I miss regarding workarounds, lemme know. I can probably add more workarounds if I miss anything as I know the program in and out from a user perspective.

On 4/29/2017 11:54 AM, C R wrote:

...

...

I don't mean to slow anyone's roll here. But wouldn't it make more

sense to put

...

...

any kind of energy towards documentation into the much discussed,

direly needed,

...

...

user-focused, step by step manual? Rather than starting from scratch

on a whole

...

...

different kind of project?

Yea, this actually makes a lot of sense as a first step.

...

There are many books out there already, which amount to a series of

tutorials.

...

...

It's not a bad thing. I just think this kind of project is better

suited for a

...

...

single author, or maybe a small team. And I think the project needs

the manual

...

...

much, more more than the community needs another book of tutorials.

I agree. I think the book could be a lot of things in one. But I agree with finishing what we already have before starting something new.

...

As far as I understand, all that's needed is an English translation

of...well

...

...

can't find a link to the French version. Here's a link to whatever has

been

...

...

translated already: https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/introduction/

I can't help with translation, unfortunately. But I'd like to see this finished. So +1 for the suggestion.

...

Once we have the translation, we'll be off and running to update and

finish it!

...

...

By the way, is there anything those of us who can't translate, can do,

to help

...

...

the translators?

I volunteer to help this effort in what ways are needed.

...

And won't such a new book of tutorials have to be published? A big

obstacle to

...

...

writing any book is getting it published. You almost have to have an

invitation

...

...

from a publisher to be certain a book will get published. Or publish it yourself, which is not easy eitiher.

Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways, opened in browsers, laptops, eReaders, or just printed out. We could sell printed copies along with other Inkscape stuff. Maybe copies signed by members of the project would be kinda cool. No idea what the market is for it, but the idea that we could do all of these at once is attractive, and why I recommend Scribus.

-C

...

Just my opinion :-)

brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 4:01 PM To: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?

The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as it might be later on.

Maren

...

Am 28.04.2017 um 16:14 schrieb Martin Owens:

...

On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote:

...

I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd like. It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack of time/hands involved.

Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably be a github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases.

Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris.

Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, there should be a button to join:

https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs

And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put:

https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals

I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have something "complete" but have something small produced.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

---

---

...

...

...

...

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...

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I also think this is not the same as a manual, which should be quick to browse, quick to grasp, with lots of interlinks, with a file format suitable for version control (well, yes, Scribus is xml, I've been told, so it would be /readable/ - but those diffs are really ugly), with out-of-the-box automated generation of online versions of a manual - as can be done with tools like sphinx/readthedocs, doctype, and other tools

Martin and I are thinking gitlab + markdown will suffice for the basis of contribution, and we can worry about scribus and doc publishing later.

Also, it would be good if things like the keyboard+mouse reference and other stuff we already have could be included.

Probably should use markdown code to identify key shortcuts in plain text. Makes them easier to edit, diff, and provides an easy way to add new ones.

Also, crediting people for their work is just something that makes them more willing to contribute (as stated above). CC-By would lose that, after the first iteration, as far as my understanding of the licence goes.

We get into the territory of having to edit each and every diagram or screen capture. It's messy. I think a better credit would be to have a contributor page for those who contribute the most. If that's insufficient credit, I think people might be contributing for the wrong reasons.

Some of the people involved in flossmanualsfr are also long-time contributors to and developers of Inkscape, so that's the relation.

But you see how the licensing gets in the way? We can't use any of it now. People wanted credit more than they wanted to have the contents be reusable. GPL is for software. People try to rewrite for content, but that's not what it's for. Worse, it imposes more restrictions than CC-BY.

I think it's best to say something like: "Unless otherwise stated, all content in this book is CC0, Public Domain." Then, those who require attribution can include it in the caption below the graphics.

The NC licence is maybe a bit overprotective, but I'm all for crediting and having a manual be available for anyone who needs it.

Yes, let's not do NC. The point of this is to get it into as many hands as possible. People want a bit of money to handle printing and distribution, let them. It's less work for the project and more free publicity.

-C

Maren

Am 29.04.2017 um 21:22 schrieb C R:

Also this: http://write.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/

On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 8:04 PM, C R <cajhne@...400...> wrote:

...

...

...

Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways,....

Yes, I understand that. But I thought Victor was talking about a

hardback

...

...

book, like at the link he provided. That kind of book is hard to get published, unless you have some prior agreement with a publisher. At

least

...

...

that's my understanding.

We can self-publish, but we'd have to order a thousand copies, which would take some startup funds. I don't think hardback would be necessary. In fact, I don't imagine printing is necessary. We could render out a nice illustration of the book, with "ebook" under it, and people can enjoy the aesthetic without downing a bunch of trees to make physical copies of the manual. Virtual copies have great things like hyperlinks, and text search capabilities. So there are more benefits to having a digital copy anyway.

...

Somewhere in this thread was some discussion about licensing. If this

is to

...

...

be a hardback book (old fashioned way of publishing) *to me* it makes

more

...

...

sense to carry a copyright.

The only requirement for a published physical book is an isbn number (for product catalog, and inventory purposes). The license of the book, as I understand it, is left completely open to the authors. We would not have this published by a company interested in owning the copyright, of course.

...

As far as I understand, publishers take a cut of sales. And if it's a public domain content, there wouldn't be many sales. It seems like it would make it even harder to find a publisher.

A publisher isn't necessary for this project, assuming the content is what's important. If we want book sales out of this, that's the point where it will become an issue.

...

I don't know, maybe I'm old and old fashioned. But the FLOSS manual,

on the

...

...

other hand, certainly should be either public domain, or CC-BY-NC-SA

might

...

...

be better. Whatever it needs to have, to allow the community to edit.

All I can guarantee is that my contributions will be public domain. :)

...

This is probably a bad idea. But I'm trying to think outside the box.

What

...

...

if I (or other non-French-speaker) took one of the French pages, and

sent it

...

...

through the public google and/or bing translators. I know those are far from perfect. (Sooooo far!) But since I know Inkscape, it seems like

it

...

...

would give me enough of a clue what it's about, to be able to write it properly in English.

Well, translation plus proof-reading is fine I'd think. It's not like the subject matter would be alien to you. :) Fact is, you could easily re-write from scratch the missing sections in English, then we would be able to use it in our own "official" Inkscape manual too.

...

Then maybe the translators can proof read it, to make sure something important wasn't missed? Proof reading would seem to be much less time-consuming for them.

Would that work??

All best, brynn

As I understand it, the Inkscape Project has nothing to do with flossmanuals, so perhaps it's beyond the scope of this project.

...

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 9:54 AM To: brynn Cc: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List ; Maren Hachmann ; Victor

Westmann

...

...

Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

...

I don't mean to slow anyone's roll here. But wouldn't it make more

sense

...

...

...

to put any kind of energy towards documentation into the much discussed,

direly

...

...

...

needed, user-focused, step by step manual? Rather than starting from scratch

on a

...

...

...

whole different kind of project?

Yea, this actually makes a lot of sense as a first step.

...

There are many books out there already, which amount to a series of tutorials. It's not a bad thing. I just think this kind of project is better

suited

...

...

...

for a single author, or maybe a small team. And I think the project needs

the

...

...

...

manual much, more more than the community needs another book of tutorials.

I agree. I think the book could be a lot of things in one. But I agree with finishing what we already have before starting something new.

...

As far as I understand, all that's needed is an English translation of...well can't find a link to the French version. Here's a link to whatever has been translated already: https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/introduction/

I can't help with translation, unfortunately. But I'd like to see this finished. So +1 for the suggestion.

...

Once we have the translation, we'll be off and running to update and finish it! By the way, is there anything those of us who can't translate, can do,

to

...

...

...

help the translators?

I volunteer to help this effort in what ways are needed.

...

And won't such a new book of tutorials have to be published? A big obstacle to writing any book is getting it published. You almost have to have an invitation from a publisher to be certain a book will get published. Or publish

it

...

...

...

yourself, which is not easy eitiher.

Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways, opened in browsers, laptops, eReaders, or just printed out. We could sell printed copies along with other Inkscape stuff. Maybe copies signed by members of the project would be kinda cool. No idea what the market is for it, but the idea that we could do all of these at once is attractive, and why I recommend Scribus.

-C

...

Just my opinion :-)

brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 4:01 PM To: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs

material?

...

...

...

(targeting the moon)

Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?

The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as

it

...

...

...

might be later on.

Maren

...

Am 28.04.2017 um 16:14 schrieb Martin Owens:

...

On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote: > > I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's > what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd > like. > It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack > of time/hands involved. > > Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably be

a

...

...

...

...

...

> github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what > needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases.

Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris.

Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, there should be a button to join:

https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs

And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put:

https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals

I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have

something

...

...

...

...

...

"complete" but have something small produced.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

---

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...

...

...

...

...

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Sorry for the bad formatting, used the wrong email account accidentally.

More readable version:

Am 30.04.2017 um 04:47 schrieb Martin Owens:

...

Even the booktype server of flossmanuals works with automation. Using one of those would also have the advantage that, once set up, this system could be used for both developer as well as user documentation (as Victor wrote in his post - and I agree with him).

Developer documentation is a very different beast and I'd like to if at all possible keep that separate. wiki.inkscape.org is the best location for that at the moment.

- So these are the things I've been basing my opinion on: - we were looking for long-term solutions - the Inkscape Wiki was going to be retired, because it has no maintainer, - developer documentation was going to be moved to the inkscape repo, where developers would see it. - we have limited resources in terms of people who can maintain things, especially infrastructure.

Have there been any changes to these plans? I think /someone/ was even planning to close the Wiki for editing this month...

Having one system that will work for both can significantly reduce the workload involved. Just saying. I know it's fun to devise a new system, and to tailor it to the project's needs. I also know that requires maintenance.

One of the ideas we were playing with, was getting contributors to edit content directly at gitlab.com, then we have a bunch of scripts that consume the wiki git repository, generate pot/po files, and provide the raw resource for an optional secondary step. The second step would be a sort of publishing step. Where we take the content as a specific time, and produce it into a cleaned up, pretty >

book/pdf.

I imagine contributors like CR would be most interested in this step. But everyone would be involved in the raw materials step (writing words and getting screenshots into the wiki)

- I would recommend against using the gitlab Wiki. There are no notifications for it (and no hooks to generate them, as far as I could find out). It uses Markdown (limited, gitlab specific set). It doesn't even have the option of organizing files in a tree structure (yet. May change in the future). The repo is hidden.

I've read a lot about open source documentation in the last months, and the main recommendations from experienced people who tried a lot of different options out, and compared them to each other, were: - don't, under any circumstances, use Markdown, because it has too many custom flavours and is not universal. Use re-structured text instead. - make sure it will always stay portable - make sure you have version control (Gitlab Wiki has, I know. It's only not accessible via interface at all).

- and I wouldn't advise to use a custom solution, because Inkscape's resources in terms of manpower are limited. There exist perfect systems already, which have big communities and are proven to work. Maybe if they can be combined, and just a tiny, editing front-end part is custom (but not a requirement), because that seems to be missing, and would be very helpful for getting contributors.

...

CC-By would lose that, after the first iteration, as far as my >>

understanding of the licence goes. > > That's not how licenses work (at least not these ones), you can't > remove any prior terms, you can only add terms. Technically you could > take a CC-BY work and wrap it in a CC-BY-SA work, or relicense as All > Rights Reserved. BUT everyone would still be required to attend that > that attribution of the original license. SA means you can't /add > licenses/ to make it more restrictive.

- Thank you! You just filled a huge knowledge gap (:-o).

...

@doctormo: "FLOSS Manuals utilise la licence libre GPL pour l'ensemble de ses travaux." - translates to: all manuals on flossmanuals are under the GPL (don't ask which version, doesn't say there on that page.

(https://www.flossmanualsfr.net/faq-floss-manuals-francophone/ch011_quest-ce-...

...

libre-et-open).

Ugh, not dual licensed then. This is where a CC0 or PD would have been better. We can't do anything with the content if we want to use CC-BY- SA since the licenses are incompatible. We'll have to be careful.

- Yes, of course. You've been suggesting to ask the authors... I think they are listening here. Elisa, jazzynico - would you be willing to dual-licence that specific book of yours?

Regards, Maren

...

Best Regards, Martin Owens > >

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...

...

Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most

engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot >

_______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel > mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel >

Am 30.04.2017 um 16:15 schrieb maren:

Am 30.04.2017 um 04:47 schrieb Martin Owens:>> Even the booktype server of flossmanuals works with automation. >> Using one of those would also have the advantage that, once set up, >> this system could be used for both developer as well as user >> documentation (as Victor wrote in his post - and I agree with >> him). > > Developer documentation is a very different beast and I'd like to if > at all possible keep that separate. wiki.inkscape.org is the best > location for that at the moment.

• So these are the things I've been basing my opinion on:
  • we were looking for long-term solutions
  • the Inkscape Wiki was going to be retired, because it has no

maintainer,

• developer documentation was going to be moved to the inkscape repo,

where developers would see it.

• we have limited resources in terms of people who can maintain

things, especially infrastructure.

Have there been any changes to these plans? I think /someone/ was even planning to close the Wiki for editing this month...

Having one system that will work for both can significantly reduce the workload involved. Just saying. I know it's fun to devise a new system, and to tailor it to the project's needs. I also know that requires maintenance.

...

One of the ideas we were playing with, was getting contributors to > edit content directly at gitlab.com, then we have a bunch of scripts >

that consume the wiki git repository, generate pot/po files, and > provide the raw resource for an optional secondary step. > > The second step would be a sort of publishing step. Where we take the > content as a specific time, and produce it into a cleaned up, pretty > book/pdf. >

...

I imagine contributors like CR would be most interested in this >

step. > > But everyone would be involved in the raw materials step (writing > words and getting screenshots into the wiki)

• I would recommend against using the gitlab Wiki. There are no

notifications for it (and no hooks to generate them, as far as I could find out). It uses Markdown (limited, gitlab specific set). It doesn't even have the option of organizing files in a tree structure (yet. May change in the future). The repo is hidden.

I've read a lot about open source documentation in the last months, and the main recommendations from experienced people who tried a lot of different options out, and compared them to each other, were:

• don't, under any circumstances, use Markdown, because it has too many

custom flavours and is not universal. Use re-structured text instead.

• make sure it will always stay portable
• make sure you have version control (Gitlab Wiki has, I know. It's only

not accessible via interface at all).

• and I wouldn't advise to use a custom solution, because Inkscape's

resources in terms of manpower are limited. There exist perfect systems already, which have big communities and are proven to work. Maybe if they can be combined, and just a tiny, editing front-end part is custom (but not a requirement), because that seems to be missing, and would be very helpful for getting contributors.

...

...

CC-By would lose that, after the first iteration, as far as my >> understanding of the licence goes. > > That's not how licenses work

(at least not these ones), you can't > remove any prior terms, you can only add terms. Technically you could > take a CC-BY work and wrap it in a CC-BY-SA work, or relicense as All > Rights Reserved. BUT everyone would still be required to attend that > that attribution of the original license. SA means you can't /add > licenses/ to make it more restrictive.

• Thank you! You just filled a huge knowledge gap (:-o).

...

...

...

@doctormo: "FLOSS Manuals utilise la licence libre GPL pour >>

l'ensemble de ses travaux." - translates to: all manuals on >> flossmanuals are under the GPL (don't ask which version, doesn't >> say there on that page. >> (https://www.flossmanualsfr.net/faq-floss-manuals-francophone/ch011_q >> uest-ce-que-lopen-source-et-quelle-est-la-difference-entre-free-

...

...

libre-et-open). > > Ugh, not dual licensed then. This is where a CC0 or PD would have >

been better. We can't do anything with the content if we want to use > CC-BY- SA since the licenses are incompatible. > > We'll have to be careful.

• Yes, of course. You've been suggesting to ask the authors... I think

they are listening here :) Elisa, jazzynico - would you be willing to dual-licence that specific book of yours?

Regards, Maren

...

...

Best Regards, Martin Owens > >

---

...

...

...

Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most

...

engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel >

mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel >

---

Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel

...

Martin and I are thinking gitlab + markdown will suffice for the basis of contribution, and we can worry about scribus and doc publishing later.

• This sounds to me like it would be duplicating work, when automated

systems exist, but aren't used from the start.

We discussed this and thought that since the output format will be many different things, the easiest way is to take contributions in the simplest form. Markdown is easy enough for anyone to understand right away, and is free of formatting, etc, which can be added later, either via automation, or by hand.

It's not really duplicating work, it's just keeping the content separate from the formatting. the formatting should be done by designers anyway. Having every user try and style pages will probably make a mess.

...

Also, it would be good if things like the keyboard+mouse reference and
other stuff we already have could be included.

Probably should use markdown code to identify key shortcuts in plain text. Makes them easier to edit, diff, and provides an easy way to add new ones.

• Yes, but we could copy the structure and contents, which are both

good. I certainly don't know all the shortcuts by heart. And there are many that aren't listed in the keys.xml file.

Content contributors should not have to worry about the structure, just the content. Those in charge of formatting will be able to see directly from what's already in the manual how formatting works, and we can provide a cheat-sheet for starters. For each output, web, pdf, epub, etc, there are different formatting requirements. It's not really possible to do them all at once, which is why it's in our best interest to keep the master content as simple as possible.

• I fully agree that a general 'Credits' page would be sufficient. The

Inkscape website contents is dual licenced, too. And we do not have individual credits for each page, word, image, link or whatever. It would be very difficult to do that anyway. Do you think that poses a problem?

If the document contains the disclaimer "unless otherwise stated), it leaves us pretty free to do whatever we like, as long as the content contributed is owned by the contributors. For example, the Inkscape splash screen could be CC-BY-SA, and as long as we say that in the graphic somewhere, along with the author, it's fine. That's for full-page graphics, probably more for aesthetics rather than just tutorials. People who want credit for every diagram or screen capture... I mean do these people even exist? I doubt it. This is not a publication that's meant to show off people's Inkscape art as a primary goal. We could do a separate coffee-table book with that. This is the official manual for Inkscape. I think it's unnecessary to require credit for most graphics that will be included in this manual. It's going to look silly at the best, and cluttered and distracting at worst to list attribution for every bit. I think requiring most instructional graphics submitted be CC0 as a rule. We can make exceptions for really nice full-page artwork used for aesthetic purposes

If someone wants to know specifically, a git blame would be sufficient to find out (this wouldn't work for the website's CMS, though)...

Most developers do not contribute to Inkscape for credit. I do not think it's asking too much of the docs team to also have this same attitude.

...

But you see how the licensing gets in the way? We can't use any of it now. People wanted credit more than they wanted to have the contents be reusable. GPL is for software. People try to rewrite for content, but that's not what it's for. Worse, it imposes more restrictions than CC-BY.

• We could, if we used GPL... It doesn't prevent translation or

modification. And we can ask, as Martin suggested.

I recommend against using GPL for this document. It really isn't meant for content of this type. Rewording the GPL to try and make it fit content of this type is just asking for trouble, and will mean that the contents will only be usable by others willing to continue the inadvisable tradition of trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

...

I think it's best to say something like: "Unless otherwise stated, all content in this book is CC0, Public Domain." Then, those who require attribution can include it in the caption below the graphics.

• That's certainly possible. However, I wouldn't contribute text or

proofreading or maintenance help under these circumstances. There are many things that I have published as CC0 (Public Domain is impossible in Germany, because there are certain moral rights, such as 'authorship' that one cannot give up, even if one wanted to). But a manual that is made for an open source, copyleft software should fit the philosophy, in my opinion. I care about attributing work to the people who did it, and I don't want that someone who comes along to grab what they did can just deprive them of it.

The only way that would happen is if the project stopped using the documentation. The plan is to use it all over the place, so I have no idea how nefarious parties, which for some reason are interested in copying Inkscape's manual, modifying it, and claiming credit for it... would do anything except make the people who did it look foolish. cc0 and public domain does not contradict the philosophy of copyleft or FLOSS. It just makes the contents usable in anything else, and I want people to use my contributions without having to worry about licensing restrictions.

If credit within the project, and for all users of Inkscape that read the manual from our repo isn't enough then... well whatever. :) Don't know what fame and fortune people are expecting from this. It's just a manual.

-C

On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 3:47 PM, Maren Hachmann <maren@...3165...> wrote:

Am 30.04.2017 um 11:39 schrieb C R:

...

I also think this is not the same as a manual, which should be quick to
browse, quick to grasp, with lots of interlinks, with a file format
suitable for version control (well, yes, Scribus is xml, I've been told,
so it would be /readable/ - but those diffs are really ugly), with
out-of-the-box automated generation of online versions of a manual - as
can be done with tools like sphinx/readthedocs, doctype, and other tools

Martin and I are thinking gitlab + markdown will suffice for the basis of contribution, and we can worry about scribus and doc publishing later.

• This sounds to me like it would be duplicating work, when automated

systems exist, but aren't used from the start.

...

Also, it would be good if things like the keyboard+mouse reference and
other stuff we already have could be included.

Probably should use markdown code to identify key shortcuts in plain text. Makes them easier to edit, diff, and provides an easy way to add new ones.

• Yes, but we could copy the structure and contents, which are both

good. I certainly don't know all the shortcuts by heart. And there are many that aren't listed in the keys.xml file.

...

 Also, crediting people for their work is just
something that makes them more willing to contribute (as stated above).
CC-By would lose that, after the first iteration, as far as my
understanding of the licence goes.

We get into the territory of having to edit each and every diagram or screen capture. It's messy. I think a better credit would be to have a contributor page for those who contribute the most. If that's insufficient credit, I think people might be contributing for the wrong reasons.

• I fully agree that a general 'Credits' page would be sufficient. The

Inkscape website contents is dual licenced, too. And we do not have individual credits for each page, word, image, link or whatever. It would be very difficult to do that anyway. Do you think that poses a problem?

If someone wants to know specifically, a git blame would be sufficient to find out (this wouldn't work for the website's CMS, though)...

...

Some of the people involved in flossmanualsfr are also long-time
contributors to and developers of Inkscape, so that's the relation.

But you see how the licensing gets in the way? We can't use any of it now. People wanted credit more than they wanted to have the contents be reusable. GPL is for software. People try to rewrite for content, but that's not what it's for. Worse, it imposes more restrictions than CC-BY.

• We could, if we used GPL... It doesn't prevent translation or

modification. And we can ask, as Martin suggested.

...

I think it's best to say something like: "Unless otherwise stated, all content in this book is CC0, Public Domain." Then, those who require attribution can include it in the caption below the graphics.

• That's certainly possible. However, I wouldn't contribute text or

proofreading or maintenance help under these circumstances. There are many things that I have published as CC0 (Public Domain is impossible in Germany, because there are certain moral rights, such as 'authorship' that one cannot give up, even if one wanted to). But a manual that is made for an open source, copyleft software should fit the philosophy, in my opinion. I care about attributing work to the people who did it, and I don't want that someone who comes along to grab what they did can just deprive them of it.

Regards, Maren

@Brynn: if you want to help with the translation of that 'intro' book,

you could, for example, make corresponding screenshots for it, of the English version. You could also get an account on that site, and explain to others who speak both French and English how it works, and what they would need to do to join. Or write a news article asking for translators who would like to help. Also, you could add a 'Credits' page at the end, which seems to be missing still. And, of course, you can proofread and edit. Sylvain has already translated quite a bit.

Thanks Maren. I'll jump right in, as much as possible. But I don't understand this part:

"....make corresponding screenshots for it...."

Screenshots for what purpose?

Getting an account on FLOSS Manuals goes without saying, once the translation is finished and we can go ahead updating and expanding. But I'll be in the same boat as potential new translators, for learning how it works. I won't be in a position to help newcomers, until I've had a little experience myself.

Credits page -- the first page gives all the credits. Is something more needed?

Proofreading -- I've read several pages already, and the English is flawless so far! But before I go on, I'd like to hear if anyone else is proofreading, so we don't waste our collective time.

Actually, because of our previous discussions, I've been waiting for Sylvain to let me know when something is ready for proofing. I could still do it anyway. But maybe I'll message him and ask.

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 4:29 PM To: C R ; brynn Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; Inkscape-Docs ; Victor Westmann Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Hi all,

oh, wow, I've just been offline for a couple of hours - wouldn't have expected that, if finally someone gives the 'go' for a manual, there would be such a huge echo (we've been discussing this on and off for a /very/ long time already). That's just cool :D

Just some comments to various things that were mentioned:

@CR: I think Scribus is a great tool for making the kind of graphical, polished, sellable, printable, book-with-columns-like structure which was linked in that very first link. For something that is really nice to look at, and is fun to read and touch.

I also think this is not the same as a manual, which should be quick to browse, quick to grasp, with lots of interlinks, with a file format suitable for version control (well, yes, Scribus is xml, I've been told, so it would be /readable/ - but those diffs are really ugly), with out-of-the-box automated generation of online versions of a manual - as can be done with tools like sphinx/readthedocs, doctype, and other tools specifically tailored for open source documentation + gitlab CI. You can take a look at the link from Victor's message to the mailing list, if you would like to know more: https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/message/35773618/

Even the booktype server of flossmanuals works with automation. Using one of those would also have the advantage that, once set up, this system could be used for both developer as well as user documentation (as Victor wrote in his post - and I agree with him).

As for the attribution, I think especially the book-like structure would profit from it, as I believe that artists may be more likely to contribute their drawings if those are - at least - credited to them.

Also, it would be good if things like the keyboard+mouse reference and other stuff we already have could be included. It's faster that way. Faster also means: quicker rewards. This is good if you want to have many contributors. Also, crediting people for their work is just something that makes them more willing to contribute (as stated above). CC-By would lose that, after the first iteration, as far as my understanding of the licence goes.

Some of the people involved in flossmanualsfr are also long-time contributors to and developers of Inkscape, so that's the relation.

The other, English, outdated, manual that you linked to, has been written by many of the 'old hands' in the Inkscape community - some of whom have moved on, and some of whom are still involved.

@doctormo: "FLOSS Manuals utilise la licence libre GPL pour l'ensemble de ses travaux." - translates to: all manuals on flossmanuals are under the GPL (don't ask which version, doesn't say there on that page. (https://www.flossmanualsfr.net/faq-floss-manuals-francophone/ch011_quest-ce-...).

@Brynn: if you want to help with the translation of that 'intro' book, you could, for example, make corresponding screenshots for it, of the English version. You could also get an account on that site, and explain to others who speak both French and English how it works, and what they would need to do to join. Or write a news article asking for translators who would like to help. Also, you could add a 'Credits' page at the end, which seems to be missing still. And, of course, you can proofread and edit. Sylvain has already translated quite a bit.

The NC licence is maybe a bit overprotective, but I'm all for crediting and having a manual be available for anyone who needs it. I personally wouldn't mind if someone prints and sells it and makes money with that. As long as that is not the only source of the book/manual, this doesn't cause me any worries.

I think google translate might cause more issues than solve them - but it has been getting better... I personally find that correcting a badly messed-up text which already gives me some 'scheme' tends to give worse translations, than when there is no scaffolding. It's because the machine translation is kind of giving the direction. It may be faster, but the translation sounds less natural.

@jazzynico or Elisa: Can you tell us the specific flossmanuals licence? GPLv2 or 3? Or, if not specified, do you know which version it would use then, legally? Does Booktype use any kind of version control that is compatible with git? What is the source file format?

@Miguel: yes, we're discussing those workarounds (and many others) on the forums on a regular basis. It would certainly be cool if someone could compile the 'Tips + Tricks' (sounds better than workarounds?) to make up a separate section in the manual, or even a separate manual by its own.

(sorry for the long post, there was a lot to reply to :D)

Maren

Am 29.04.2017 um 21:22 schrieb C R:

Also this: http://write.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/

On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 8:04 PM, C R <cajhne@...400...> wrote:

...

...

...

Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways,....

Yes, I understand that. But I thought Victor was talking about a hardback book, like at the link he provided. That kind of book is hard to get published, unless you have some prior agreement with a publisher. At least that's my understanding.

We can self-publish, but we'd have to order a thousand copies, which would take some startup funds. I don't think hardback would be necessary. In fact, I don't imagine printing is necessary. We could render out a nice illustration of the book, with "ebook" under it, and people can enjoy the aesthetic without downing a bunch of trees to make physical copies of the manual. Virtual copies have great things like hyperlinks, and text search capabilities. So there are more benefits to having a digital copy anyway.

...

Somewhere in this thread was some discussion about licensing. If this is to be a hardback book (old fashioned way of publishing) *to me* it makes more sense to carry a copyright.

The only requirement for a published physical book is an isbn number (for product catalog, and inventory purposes). The license of the book, as I understand it, is left completely open to the authors. We would not have this published by a company interested in owning the copyright, of course.

...

As far as I understand, publishers take a cut of sales. And if it's a public domain content, there wouldn't be many sales. It seems like it would make it even harder to find a publisher.

A publisher isn't necessary for this project, assuming the content is what's important. If we want book sales out of this, that's the point where it will become an issue.

...

I don't know, maybe I'm old and old fashioned. But the FLOSS manual, on the other hand, certainly should be either public domain, or CC-BY-NC-SA might be better. Whatever it needs to have, to allow the community to edit.

All I can guarantee is that my contributions will be public domain. :)

...

This is probably a bad idea. But I'm trying to think outside the box. What if I (or other non-French-speaker) took one of the French pages, and sent it through the public google and/or bing translators. I know those are far from perfect. (Sooooo far!) But since I know Inkscape, it seems like it would give me enough of a clue what it's about, to be able to write it properly in English.

Well, translation plus proof-reading is fine I'd think. It's not like the subject matter would be alien to you. :) Fact is, you could easily re-write from scratch the missing sections in English, then we would be able to use it in our own "official" Inkscape manual too.

...

Then maybe the translators can proof read it, to make sure something important wasn't missed? Proof reading would seem to be much less time-consuming for them.

Would that work??

All best, brynn

As I understand it, the Inkscape Project has nothing to do with flossmanuals, so perhaps it's beyond the scope of this project.

Am 01.05.2017 um 08:34 schrieb brynn:

...

I think google translate might cause more issues than solve them - but

it has been getting better... I personally find that correcting a badly messed-up text which already gives me some 'scheme' tends to give worse translations, than when there is no scaffolding. It's because the machine translation is kind of giving the direction. It may be faster, but the translation sounds less natural.

No, I don't mean to leave it to where anyone would have a clue that any kind of automated translator was used. I don't mean to paste in the translation, and make a couple of small edits.

What I mean is to use the translation just to give me an idea what's on that page. Since I know Inkscape so well, I could write that page of the manual. I can use pages which are already translated to keep the same format.

- Ah, yes. That's also what CR suggested, and it's a good idea :)

And when I use google or bing, I never just leave it with what one of them tells me. I use both. And when they invariably give different answers, I take the different words or phrases and send them back through the translator, to find out which one is the closest to what I mean.

(You should have seen what happened when I used them to post a message on Framasoft's French forum! You know, we were using Framapad, and needed some help. They call each document a "pad". Like a notepad. So when I sent the translation back through, I saw that google had other ideas about what is a "pad"!)

- LOL... ;-D

Well anyway, it can't hurt to try one page. If it goes badly, then I'll give up.

- Ah no, don't give up after just the first trial! If Sylvain or one of the others who already worked with it, have some time, maybe they'd be willing to give some assistance. They also have mailing lists.

Regards, Maren

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 4:29 PM To: C R ; brynn Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; Inkscape-Docs ; Victor Westmann Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Hi all,

oh, wow, I've just been offline for a couple of hours - wouldn't have expected that, if finally someone gives the 'go' for a manual, there would be such a huge echo (we've been discussing this on and off for a /very/ long time already). That's just cool :D

Just some comments to various things that were mentioned:

@CR: I think Scribus is a great tool for making the kind of graphical, polished, sellable, printable, book-with-columns-like structure which was linked in that very first link. For something that is really nice to look at, and is fun to read and touch.

I also think this is not the same as a manual, which should be quick to browse, quick to grasp, with lots of interlinks, with a file format suitable for version control (well, yes, Scribus is xml, I've been told, so it would be /readable/ - but those diffs are really ugly), with out-of-the-box automated generation of online versions of a manual - as can be done with tools like sphinx/readthedocs, doctype, and other tools specifically tailored for open source documentation + gitlab CI. You can take a look at the link from Victor's message to the mailing list, if you would like to know more: https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/message/35773618/

Even the booktype server of flossmanuals works with automation. Using one of those would also have the advantage that, once set up, this system could be used for both developer as well as user documentation (as Victor wrote in his post - and I agree with him).

As for the attribution, I think especially the book-like structure would profit from it, as I believe that artists may be more likely to contribute their drawings if those are - at least - credited to them.

Also, it would be good if things like the keyboard+mouse reference and other stuff we already have could be included. It's faster that way. Faster also means: quicker rewards. This is good if you want to have many contributors. Also, crediting people for their work is just something that makes them more willing to contribute (as stated above). CC-By would lose that, after the first iteration, as far as my understanding of the licence goes.

Some of the people involved in flossmanualsfr are also long-time contributors to and developers of Inkscape, so that's the relation.

The other, English, outdated, manual that you linked to, has been written by many of the 'old hands' in the Inkscape community - some of whom have moved on, and some of whom are still involved.

@doctormo: "FLOSS Manuals utilise la licence libre GPL pour l'ensemble de ses travaux." - translates to: all manuals on flossmanuals are under the GPL (don't ask which version, doesn't say there on that page. (https://www.flossmanualsfr.net/faq-floss-manuals-francophone/ch011_quest-ce-...).

@Brynn: if you want to help with the translation of that 'intro' book, you could, for example, make corresponding screenshots for it, of the English version. You could also get an account on that site, and explain to others who speak both French and English how it works, and what they would need to do to join. Or write a news article asking for translators who would like to help. Also, you could add a 'Credits' page at the end, which seems to be missing still. And, of course, you can proofread and edit. Sylvain has already translated quite a bit.

The NC licence is maybe a bit overprotective, but I'm all for crediting and having a manual be available for anyone who needs it. I personally wouldn't mind if someone prints and sells it and makes money with that. As long as that is not the only source of the book/manual, this doesn't cause me any worries.

I think google translate might cause more issues than solve them - but it has been getting better... I personally find that correcting a badly messed-up text which already gives me some 'scheme' tends to give worse translations, than when there is no scaffolding. It's because the machine translation is kind of giving the direction. It may be faster, but the translation sounds less natural.

@jazzynico or Elisa: Can you tell us the specific flossmanuals licence? GPLv2 or 3? Or, if not specified, do you know which version it would use then, legally? Does Booktype use any kind of version control that is compatible with git? What is the source file format?

@Miguel: yes, we're discussing those workarounds (and many others) on the forums on a regular basis. It would certainly be cool if someone could compile the 'Tips + Tricks' (sounds better than workarounds?) to make up a separate section in the manual, or even a separate manual by its own.

(sorry for the long post, there was a lot to reply to :D)

Maren

Am 29.04.2017 um 21:22 schrieb C R:

...

Also this: http://write.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/

On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 8:04 PM, C R <cajhne@...400...> wrote:

...

...

...

Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways,....

Yes, I understand that. But I thought Victor was talking about a hardback book, like at the link he provided. That kind of book is hard to get published, unless you have some prior agreement with a publisher. At least that's my understanding.

We can self-publish, but we'd have to order a thousand copies, which would take some startup funds. I don't think hardback would be necessary. In fact, I don't imagine printing is necessary. We could render out a nice illustration of the book, with "ebook" under it, and people can enjoy the aesthetic without downing a bunch of trees to make physical copies of the manual. Virtual copies have great things like hyperlinks, and text search capabilities. So there are more benefits to having a digital copy anyway.

...

Somewhere in this thread was some discussion about licensing. If this is to be a hardback book (old fashioned way of publishing) *to me* it makes more sense to carry a copyright.

The only requirement for a published physical book is an isbn number (for product catalog, and inventory purposes). The license of the book, as I understand it, is left completely open to the authors. We would not have this published by a company interested in owning the copyright, of course.

...

As far as I understand, publishers take a cut of sales. And if it's a public domain content, there wouldn't be many sales. It seems like it would make it even harder to find a publisher.

A publisher isn't necessary for this project, assuming the content is what's important. If we want book sales out of this, that's the point where it will become an issue.

...

I don't know, maybe I'm old and old fashioned. But the FLOSS manual, on the other hand, certainly should be either public domain, or CC-BY-NC-SA might be better. Whatever it needs to have, to allow the community to edit.

All I can guarantee is that my contributions will be public domain. :)

...

This is probably a bad idea. But I'm trying to think outside the box. What if I (or other non-French-speaker) took one of the French pages, and sent it through the public google and/or bing translators. I know those are far from perfect. (Sooooo far!) But since I know Inkscape, it seems like it would give me enough of a clue what it's about, to be able to write it properly in English.

Well, translation plus proof-reading is fine I'd think. It's not like the subject matter would be alien to you. :) Fact is, you could easily re-write from scratch the missing sections in English, then we would be able to use it in our own "official" Inkscape manual too.

...

Then maybe the translators can proof read it, to make sure something important wasn't missed? Proof reading would seem to be much less time-consuming for them.

Would that work??

All best, brynn

As I understand it, the Inkscape Project has nothing to do with flossmanuals, so perhaps it's beyond the scope of this project.

...

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 9:54 AM To: brynn Cc: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List ; Maren Hachmann ; Victor Westmann

Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

...

I don't mean to slow anyone's roll here. But wouldn't it make more sense to put any kind of energy towards documentation into the much discussed, direly needed, user-focused, step by step manual? Rather than starting from scratch on a whole different kind of project?

Yea, this actually makes a lot of sense as a first step.

...

There are many books out there already, which amount to a series of tutorials. It's not a bad thing. I just think this kind of project is better suited for a single author, or maybe a small team. And I think the project needs the manual much, more more than the community needs another book of tutorials.

I agree. I think the book could be a lot of things in one. But I agree with finishing what we already have before starting something new.

...

As far as I understand, all that's needed is an English translation of...well can't find a link to the French version. Here's a link to whatever has been translated already: https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/introduction/

I can't help with translation, unfortunately. But I'd like to see this finished. So +1 for the suggestion.

...

Once we have the translation, we'll be off and running to update and finish it! By the way, is there anything those of us who can't translate, can do, to help the translators?

I volunteer to help this effort in what ways are needed.

...

And won't such a new book of tutorials have to be published? A big obstacle to writing any book is getting it published. You almost have to have an invitation from a publisher to be certain a book will get published. Or publish it yourself, which is not easy eitiher.

Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways, opened in browsers, laptops, eReaders, or just printed out. We could sell printed copies along with other Inkscape stuff. Maybe copies signed by members of the project would be kinda cool. No idea what the market is for it, but the idea that we could do all of these at once is attractive, and why I recommend Scribus.

-C

...

Just my opinion :-)

brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 4:01 PM To: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?

The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as it might be later on.

Maren

...

Am 28.04.2017 um 16:14 schrieb Martin Owens: > > On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote: >> >> I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's >> what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd >> like. >> It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack >> of time/hands involved. >> >> Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably >> be a >> github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what >> needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases. > > > Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris. > > Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, > there > should be a button to join: > > https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs > > And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put: > > https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals > > I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the > adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have > something > "complete" but have something small produced. > > Best Regards, Martin Owens > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > _______________________________________________ > Inkscape-devel mailing list > Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel >

---

Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel

---

Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel

We can do both :) (and even combine them). I've been thinking we're exploring options. I'll make a suggestion shortly.

I only wish Nicolas or Elisa could be here to give us some more in-depth info about their server's capabilities and their book's licencing.

Kind Regards, Maren

Am 01.05.2017 um 07:07 schrieb brynn:

I'm confused -- I missed a step somewhere.

Are we no longer talking about translating the French manual on FLOSS Manuals?

Or are you talking about something else entirely?

Sorry to be so simple-minded.

Thanks, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2017 3:39 AM To: Maren Hachmann Cc: Victor Westmann ; inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs ; brynn Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

I also think this is not the same as a manual, which should be quick to browse, quick to grasp, with lots of interlinks, with a file format suitable for version control (well, yes, Scribus is xml, I've been told, so it would be /readable/ - but those diffs are really ugly), with out-of-the-box automated generation of online versions of a manual - as can be done with tools like sphinx/readthedocs, doctype, and other tools

Martin and I are thinking gitlab + markdown will suffice for the basis of contribution, and we can worry about scribus and doc publishing later.

Also, it would be good if things like the keyboard+mouse reference and other stuff we already have could be included.

Probably should use markdown code to identify key shortcuts in plain text. Makes them easier to edit, diff, and provides an easy way to add new ones.

Also, crediting people for their work is just something that makes them more willing to contribute (as stated above). CC-By would lose that, after the first iteration, as far as my understanding of the licence goes.

We get into the territory of having to edit each and every diagram or screen capture. It's messy. I think a better credit would be to have a contributor page for those who contribute the most. If that's insufficient credit, I think people might be contributing for the wrong reasons.

Some of the people involved in flossmanualsfr are also long-time contributors to and developers of Inkscape, so that's the relation.

But you see how the licensing gets in the way? We can't use any of it now. People wanted credit more than they wanted to have the contents be reusable. GPL is for software. People try to rewrite for content, but that's not what it's for. Worse, it imposes more restrictions than CC-BY.

I think it's best to say something like: "Unless otherwise stated, all content in this book is CC0, Public Domain." Then, those who require attribution can include it in the caption below the graphics.

The NC licence is maybe a bit overprotective, but I'm all for crediting and having a manual be available for anyone who needs it.

Yes, let's not do NC. The point of this is to get it into as many hands as possible. People want a bit of money to handle printing and distribution, let them. It's less work for the project and more free publicity.

-C

Maren

Am 29.04.2017 um 21:22 schrieb C R:

...

Also this: http://write.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/

On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 8:04 PM, C R <cajhne@...400...> wrote:

...

...

...

Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways,....

Yes, I understand that. But I thought Victor was talking about a hardback book, like at the link he provided. That kind of book is hard to get published, unless you have some prior agreement with a publisher. At least that's my understanding.

We can self-publish, but we'd have to order a thousand copies, which would take some startup funds. I don't think hardback would be necessary. In fact, I don't imagine printing is necessary. We could render out a nice illustration of the book, with "ebook" under it, and people can enjoy the aesthetic without downing a bunch of trees to make physical copies of the manual. Virtual copies have great things like hyperlinks, and text search capabilities. So there are more benefits to having a digital copy anyway.

...

Somewhere in this thread was some discussion about licensing. If this is to be a hardback book (old fashioned way of publishing) *to me* it makes more sense to carry a copyright.

The only requirement for a published physical book is an isbn number (for product catalog, and inventory purposes). The license of the book, as I understand it, is left completely open to the authors. We would not have this published by a company interested in owning the copyright, of course.

...

As far as I understand, publishers take a cut of sales. And if it's a public domain content, there wouldn't be many sales. It seems like it would make it even harder to find a publisher.

A publisher isn't necessary for this project, assuming the content is what's important. If we want book sales out of this, that's the point where it will become an issue.

...

I don't know, maybe I'm old and old fashioned. But the FLOSS manual, on the other hand, certainly should be either public domain, or CC-BY-NC-SA might be better. Whatever it needs to have, to allow the community to edit.

All I can guarantee is that my contributions will be public domain. :)

...

This is probably a bad idea. But I'm trying to think outside the box. What if I (or other non-French-speaker) took one of the French pages, and sent it through the public google and/or bing translators. I know those are far from perfect. (Sooooo far!) But since I know Inkscape, it seems like it would give me enough of a clue what it's about, to be able to write it properly in English.

Well, translation plus proof-reading is fine I'd think. It's not like the subject matter would be alien to you. :) Fact is, you could easily re-write from scratch the missing sections in English, then we would be able to use it in our own "official" Inkscape manual too.

...

Then maybe the translators can proof read it, to make sure something important wasn't missed? Proof reading would seem to be much less time-consuming for them.

Would that work??

All best, brynn

As I understand it, the Inkscape Project has nothing to do with flossmanuals, so perhaps it's beyond the scope of this project.

Hi Nicolas :D,

thank you!

What I would like to know (and what is now buried deep in the email stream) is:

- How does version control work for booktype? Could it be combined with a git repository, or does it use a fully independent system? (I couldn't find a direct hint, maybe it's just using the django database to keep track of changes/edits?)

- What is the source file format of booktype? Markdown? (guessing from the requirements for pip)

Regards, Maren

Am 01.05.2017 um 21:08 schrieb Nicolas Dufour:

Hi all,

I'm just back from two weeks away, and as the thread is very long now I didn't find time to read everything. Sorry if I'm off-topic.

Le Lundi 1 mai 2017 13h07, Maren Hachmann <maren@...3165...> a écrit :

...

I only wish Nicolas or Elisa could be here to give us some more in-depth

...

info about their server's capabilities

Not sure what you mean. Of course the Inkscape project can use the French FM server for the translation, but note that an English version also exists (http://write.flossmanuals.net/). It would probably be easier to work on the English server directly.

...

and their book's licencing.

If I remember correctly, the GPLv2 was the first license that was chosen when the FM project was created about 10 years ago, and some books still use it. But the server allows users to choose a different license when creating a new book (CC, GPL, PD). As for the Inkscape book, I see it's under a GPLv3. I don't know if it can be changed (and how) or not. Elisa could probably give more details.

Regards, -- Nicolas

Ooohhh, you mean the images, the graphics! Now I understand!

I probably would not be the best perseon to do that, because I use an unusual theme color, a flat color with no "aero", which is not particularly attractive. I use it because it's easy on my eyes. But it would make the pages look so ugly!

If it needs screenshots that are close up, showing a drawing, I could do that. But anything showing dialogs, it would not be a good idea, imo.

But I'll have a go at using a translator. And if I see any places where I can make a screenshot ready, I'll do that too.

Sorry about getting the page wrong. Not 2 minutes after I sent the message, I realized it was not the first page. Oh well.

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 5:06 AM To: brynn ; C R Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; Inkscape-Docs ; Victor Westmann Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Am 01.05.2017 um 07:19 schrieb brynn:

...

@Brynn: if you want to help with the translation of that 'intro' book,

you could, for example, make corresponding screenshots for it, of the English version. You could also get an account on that site, and explain to others who speak both French and English how it works, and what they would need to do to join. Or write a news article asking for translators who would like to help. Also, you could add a 'Credits' page at the end, which seems to be missing still. And, of course, you can proofread and edit. Sylvain has already translated quite a bit.

Thanks Maren. I'll jump right in, as much as possible. But I don't understand this part:

"....make corresponding screenshots for it...."

Screenshots for what purpose?

- The English screenshots need to be made. The original book is in French and has French screenshots, with French menus and maybe example texts in French (don't know for sure), as far as I know. Some may not need any translation, because there may not be any words in them, but others will.

They could be inserted into the corresponding chapters, even if there is no text yet.

Getting an account on FLOSS Manuals goes without saying, once the translation is finished and we can go ahead updating and expanding. But I'll be in the same boat as potential new translators, for learning how it works. I won't be in a position to help newcomers, until I've had a little experience myself.

Credits page -- the first page gives all the credits. Is something more needed?

- Ah, yes, I've found it now, thanks. It's here: https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/ (not first page, though)

Maren

Proofreading -- I've read several pages already, and the English is flawless so far! But before I go on, I'd like to hear if anyone else is proofreading, so we don't waste our collective time.

Actually, because of our previous discussions, I've been waiting for Sylvain to let me know when something is ready for proofing. I could still do it anyway. But maybe I'll message him and ask.

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 4:29 PM To: C R ; brynn Cc: Inkscape-Devel ; Inkscape-Docs ; Victor Westmann Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Hi all,

oh, wow, I've just been offline for a couple of hours - wouldn't have expected that, if finally someone gives the 'go' for a manual, there would be such a huge echo (we've been discussing this on and off for a /very/ long time already). That's just cool :D

Just some comments to various things that were mentioned:

@CR: I think Scribus is a great tool for making the kind of graphical, polished, sellable, printable, book-with-columns-like structure which was linked in that very first link. For something that is really nice to look at, and is fun to read and touch.

I also think this is not the same as a manual, which should be quick to browse, quick to grasp, with lots of interlinks, with a file format suitable for version control (well, yes, Scribus is xml, I've been told, so it would be /readable/ - but those diffs are really ugly), with out-of-the-box automated generation of online versions of a manual - as can be done with tools like sphinx/readthedocs, doctype, and other tools specifically tailored for open source documentation + gitlab CI. You can take a look at the link from Victor's message to the mailing list, if you would like to know more: https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/message/35773618/

Even the booktype server of flossmanuals works with automation. Using one of those would also have the advantage that, once set up, this system could be used for both developer as well as user documentation (as Victor wrote in his post - and I agree with him).

As for the attribution, I think especially the book-like structure would profit from it, as I believe that artists may be more likely to contribute their drawings if those are - at least - credited to them.

Also, it would be good if things like the keyboard+mouse reference and other stuff we already have could be included. It's faster that way. Faster also means: quicker rewards. This is good if you want to have many contributors. Also, crediting people for their work is just something that makes them more willing to contribute (as stated above). CC-By would lose that, after the first iteration, as far as my understanding of the licence goes.

Some of the people involved in flossmanualsfr are also long-time contributors to and developers of Inkscape, so that's the relation.

The other, English, outdated, manual that you linked to, has been written by many of the 'old hands' in the Inkscape community - some of whom have moved on, and some of whom are still involved.

@doctormo: "FLOSS Manuals utilise la licence libre GPL pour l'ensemble de ses travaux." - translates to: all manuals on flossmanuals are under the GPL (don't ask which version, doesn't say there on that page. (https://www.flossmanualsfr.net/faq-floss-manuals-francophone/ch011_quest-ce-...).

@Brynn: if you want to help with the translation of that 'intro' book, you could, for example, make corresponding screenshots for it, of the English version. You could also get an account on that site, and explain to others who speak both French and English how it works, and what they would need to do to join. Or write a news article asking for translators who would like to help. Also, you could add a 'Credits' page at the end, which seems to be missing still. And, of course, you can proofread and edit. Sylvain has already translated quite a bit.

The NC licence is maybe a bit overprotective, but I'm all for crediting and having a manual be available for anyone who needs it. I personally wouldn't mind if someone prints and sells it and makes money with that. As long as that is not the only source of the book/manual, this doesn't cause me any worries.

I think google translate might cause more issues than solve them - but it has been getting better... I personally find that correcting a badly messed-up text which already gives me some 'scheme' tends to give worse translations, than when there is no scaffolding. It's because the machine translation is kind of giving the direction. It may be faster, but the translation sounds less natural.

@jazzynico or Elisa: Can you tell us the specific flossmanuals licence? GPLv2 or 3? Or, if not specified, do you know which version it would use then, legally? Does Booktype use any kind of version control that is compatible with git? What is the source file format?

@Miguel: yes, we're discussing those workarounds (and many others) on the forums on a regular basis. It would certainly be cool if someone could compile the 'Tips + Tricks' (sounds better than workarounds?) to make up a separate section in the manual, or even a separate manual by its own.

(sorry for the long post, there was a lot to reply to :D)

Maren

Am 29.04.2017 um 21:22 schrieb C R:

...

Also this: http://write.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/

On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 8:04 PM, C R <cajhne@...400...> wrote:

...

...

...

Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways,....

Yes, I understand that. But I thought Victor was talking about a hardback book, like at the link he provided. That kind of book is hard to get published, unless you have some prior agreement with a publisher. At least that's my understanding.

We can self-publish, but we'd have to order a thousand copies, which would take some startup funds. I don't think hardback would be necessary. In fact, I don't imagine printing is necessary. We could render out a nice illustration of the book, with "ebook" under it, and people can enjoy the aesthetic without downing a bunch of trees to make physical copies of the manual. Virtual copies have great things like hyperlinks, and text search capabilities. So there are more benefits to having a digital copy anyway.

...

Somewhere in this thread was some discussion about licensing. If this is to be a hardback book (old fashioned way of publishing) *to me* it makes more sense to carry a copyright.

The only requirement for a published physical book is an isbn number (for product catalog, and inventory purposes). The license of the book, as I understand it, is left completely open to the authors. We would not have this published by a company interested in owning the copyright, of course.

...

As far as I understand, publishers take a cut of sales. And if it's a public domain content, there wouldn't be many sales. It seems like it would make it even harder to find a publisher.

A publisher isn't necessary for this project, assuming the content is what's important. If we want book sales out of this, that's the point where it will become an issue.

...

I don't know, maybe I'm old and old fashioned. But the FLOSS manual, on the other hand, certainly should be either public domain, or CC-BY-NC-SA might be better. Whatever it needs to have, to allow the community to edit.

All I can guarantee is that my contributions will be public domain. :)

...

This is probably a bad idea. But I'm trying to think outside the box. What if I (or other non-French-speaker) took one of the French pages, and sent it through the public google and/or bing translators. I know those are far from perfect. (Sooooo far!) But since I know Inkscape, it seems like it would give me enough of a clue what it's about, to be able to write it properly in English.

Well, translation plus proof-reading is fine I'd think. It's not like the subject matter would be alien to you. :) Fact is, you could easily re-write from scratch the missing sections in English, then we would be able to use it in our own "official" Inkscape manual too.

...

Then maybe the translators can proof read it, to make sure something important wasn't missed? Proof reading would seem to be much less time-consuming for them.

Would that work??

All best, brynn

As I understand it, the Inkscape Project has nothing to do with flossmanuals, so perhaps it's beyond the scope of this project.

Is anyone discussing a copyrighted book or manual at this point? If so, let's not. It's Copyleft or Public Domain. No proprietary books or content should be included in official Inkscape documentation. We need to be able to freely revise, edit, distribute without the legal entanglements.

-C

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 8:28 AM, brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:

...

• How does version control work for booktype?

This question will probably make more sense when you make the next post you promised from a different message. I had asked why we were talking about using gitlab and all that, if we were still focused on the FLOSS translation/manual. And you said you had an idea to present that you didn't have time at that moment.

I can't really see a marriage of these 2 projects (free manual, copyrighted book of tutorials). But I'm looking forward to hearing your proposal :-)

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 1:28 PM To: Nicolas Dufour ; brynn ; C R Cc: inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Hi Nicolas :D,

thank you!

What I would like to know (and what is now buried deep in the email stream) is:

• How does version control work for booktype? Could it be combined with

a git repository, or does it use a fully independent system? (I couldn't find a direct hint, maybe it's just using the django database to keep track of changes/edits?)

• What is the source file format of booktype? Markdown? (guessing from

the requirements for pip)

Regards, Maren

Am 01.05.2017 um 21:08 schrieb Nicolas Dufour:

...

Hi all,

I'm just back from two weeks away, and as the thread is very long now I didn't find time to read everything. Sorry if I'm off-topic.

Le Lundi 1 mai 2017 13h07, Maren Hachmann <maren@...3165...> a écrit :

...

I only wish Nicolas or Elisa could be here to give us some more in-depth

...

info about their server's capabilities

Not sure what you mean. Of course the Inkscape project can use the French FM server for the translation, but note that an English version also exists (http://write.flossmanuals.net/). It would probably be easier to work on the English server directly.

...

and their book's licencing.

If I remember correctly, the GPLv2 was the first license that was chosen when the FM project was created about 10 years ago, and some books still use it. But the server allows users to choose a different license when creating a new book (CC, GPL, PD). As for the Inkscape book, I see it's under a GPLv3. I don't know if it can be changed (and how) or not. Elisa could probably give more details.

Regards, -- Nicolas

I don't know C R.

I'm stuck on copyright, because the link Victor gave in his original post showed an image of a hardback book. Since I'm old and old fashioned, I naturally think a published hardback book probably has a copyright. I do realize there are other kinds of publishing.

I'm a little confused still, but I'm hoping Maren can clear it up soon. First we were talking about this book of tutorials. Then we realized that we should get this long awaited, much discussed, and pretty much direly needed manual off the ground. For a minute, we were all on the same page.

Then for some reason, you and Maren and Martin were discussing about using the website's gitlab account for writing something - the manual? the book? I don't know what you were discussing. I remain confused on that point. And part of that seems to involve some kind of license, whether public domain or other, I didn't catch that part.

Maren mentioned an idea she has for combining both projects, but hasn't had a lot of time lately. But soon, hopefully she can clarify.

So that's where I'm coming from.

I see a manual as part of official documention ought to have an open license, if only to facilitate allowing anyone to make future edits, so we aren't held back by needing a single author to edit it.

But a published book of tutorials -- I see that as a money-making project of a single author or maybe small team, which could only have a copyright, to get published (the old-fashioned hardback way) and make sales.

As I said, I have a hard time seeing these 2 different projects married. But I look forward to hearing Maren's idea.

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 4:14 AM To: brynn Cc: Nicolas Dufour ; Maren Hachmann ; inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Is anyone discussing a copyrighted book or manual at this point? If so, let's not. It's Copyleft or Public Domain. No proprietary books or content should be included in official Inkscape documentation. We need to be able to freely revise, edit, distribute without the legal entanglements.

-C

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 8:28 AM, brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:

...

• How does version control work for booktype?

This question will probably make more sense when you make the next post you promised from a different message. I had asked why we were talking about using gitlab and all that, if we were still focused on the FLOSS translation/manual. And you said you had an idea to present that you didn't have time at that moment.

I can't really see a marriage of these 2 projects (free manual, copyrighted book of tutorials). But I'm looking forward to hearing your proposal :-)

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 1:28 PM To: Nicolas Dufour ; brynn ; C R Cc: inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Hi Nicolas :D,

thank you!

What I would like to know (and what is now buried deep in the email stream) is:

• How does version control work for booktype? Could it be combined with

a git repository, or does it use a fully independent system? (I couldn't find a direct hint, maybe it's just using the django database to keep track of changes/edits?)

• What is the source file format of booktype? Markdown? (guessing from

the requirements for pip)

Regards, Maren

Am 01.05.2017 um 21:08 schrieb Nicolas Dufour:

...

Hi all,

I'm just back from two weeks away, and as the thread is very long now I didn't find time to read everything. Sorry if I'm off-topic.

Le Lundi 1 mai 2017 13h07, Maren Hachmann <maren@...3165...> a écrit :

...

I only wish Nicolas or Elisa could be here to give us some more in-depth

...

info about their server's capabilities

Not sure what you mean. Of course the Inkscape project can use the French FM server for the translation, but note that an English version also exists (http://write.flossmanuals.net/). It would probably be easier to work on the English server directly.

...

and their book's licencing.

If I remember correctly, the GPLv2 was the first license that was chosen when the FM project was created about 10 years ago, and some books still use it. But the server allows users to choose a different license when creating a new book (CC, GPL, PD). As for the Inkscape book, I see it's under a GPLv3. I don't know if it can be changed (and how) or not. Elisa could probably give more details.

Regards, -- Nicolas

CR, Brynn,

I can not more highly recommend using CC-BY-SA, because it has attribution (which I think we've cleared up prior) and contains the appropriate copyleft.

It's the license I would expect to use, it's the one that fits most with Inkscape as a project and it's the one we use on the website.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

On Tue, 2017-05-02 at 08:57 -0600, brynn wrote:

Retitled - "License for the new manual" (was "Any chance we can make some  docs.....")  Also copying in Sylvain, since he's been working on translation.  I  know there's another translator, but I can't seem to open the manual today, to  look it up.  So if someone knows who that is, please copy them in to this new  thread.

...

We should sort out what license we will offer the new manual under as

a first step,  before starting any work. We need to reach a consensus before work can proceed.

Well, considering work has already started on the manual (the translating part),  we might be a little behind the 8 ball.  But I agree that we need to nail down  the license asap.

Retitling this to start the discussion.

...

Also, according to

https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/ This document is GPL v3. I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.

Well that's the same license as Inkscape.  How is it too restrictive?

For me, the main point is that it needs a license that will allow anyone to edit  it.  We can't get stuck with an outdated manual and have no way to edit it (as a  community), ever again.

All best, brynn

-----Original Message-----  From: C R Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 4:22 AM To: brynn Cc: Nicolas Dufour ; Maren Hachmann ; inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs  material? (targeting the moon)

Also, according to https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/

This document is GPL v3. I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.

We should sort out what license we will offer the new manual under as a first step,  before starting any work. We need to reach a consensus before work can proceed.

-C

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 11:14 AM, C R <cajhne@...400...> wrote:

...

Is anyone discussing a copyrighted book or manual at this point? If so, let's not. It's Copyleft or Public Domain. No proprietary books or content should be included in official Inkscape documentation. We need to be able to freely revise, edit, distribute without the legal entanglements.

-C

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 8:28 AM, brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:

...

...

• How does version control work for booktype?

This question will probably make more sense when you make the next post you promised from a different message.  I had asked why we were talking about using gitlab and all that, if we were still focused on the FLOSS translation/manual. And you said you had an idea to present that you didn't have time at that moment.

I can't really see a marriage of these 2 projects (free manual, copyrighted book of tutorials).  But I'm looking forward to hearing your proposal :-)

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 1:28 PM To: Nicolas Dufour ; brynn ; C R Cc: inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Hi Nicolas :D,

thank you!

What I would like to know (and what is now buried deep in the email stream) is:

• How does version control work for booktype? Could it be

combined with a git repository, or does it use a fully independent system? (I couldn't find a direct hint, maybe it's just using the django database to keep track of changes/edits?)

• What is the source file format of booktype? Markdown? (guessing

from the requirements for pip)

Regards, Maren

Am 01.05.2017 um 21:08 schrieb Nicolas Dufour:

...

Hi all,

I'm just back from two weeks away, and as the thread is very long now I didn't find time to read everything. Sorry if I'm off-topic.

Le Lundi 1 mai 2017 13h07, Maren Hachmann <maren@...3514... .de> a écrit :

...

I only wish Nicolas or Elisa could be here to give us some more in-depth

...

info about their server's capabilities

Not sure what you mean. Of course the Inkscape project can use the French FM server for the translation, but note that an English version also exists (http://write.flossmanuals.net/). It would probably be easier to work on the English server directly.

...

and their book's licencing.

If I remember correctly, the GPLv2 was the first license that was chosen when the FM project was created about 10 years ago, and some books still use it. But the server allows users to choose a different license when creating a new book (CC, GPL, PD). As for the Inkscape book, I see it's under a GPLv3. I don't know if it can be changed (and how) or not. Elisa could probably give more details.

Regards, -- Nicolas

---

---

Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-docs mailing list Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs

Going to simplify a bit:

From my perspective anyone should be able to take parts of the official

inkscape manual and: 1. Modify it, update it, correct it 2. Combine it with other teaching content (rules out GPL3, GPL2, and CC-BY-SA) 3. Use it in commercial products, or part of a compilation of manuals (Rules out CC-BY-NC-SA) 4. Use it any other way they like, because it's just tutorials for using Inkscape, and anyone who wants to learn or spread the word about Inkscape should be able to do so however they like. There's literally no wrong way to do that. :)

imho we should avoid licenses that were not made for documentation entirely (GPL anything).

Thoughts about this? -C

On 2 May 2017 3:57 p.m., "brynn" <brynn@...3133...> wrote:

Retitled - "License for the new manual" (was "Any chance we can make some docs.....") Also copying in Sylvain, since he's been working on translation. I know there's another translator, but I can't seem to open the manual today, to look it up. So if someone knows who that is, please copy them in to this new thread.

We should sort out what license we will offer the new manual under as

...

a first step, before starting any work. We need to reach a consensus before work can proceed.

Well, considering work has already started on the manual (the translating part), we might be a little behind the 8 ball. But I agree that we need to nail down the license asap.

Retitling this to start the discussion.

Also, according to

...

https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/ This document is GPL v3. I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.

Well that's the same license as Inkscape. How is it too restrictive?

For me, the main point is that it needs a license that will allow anyone to edit it. We can't get stuck with an outdated manual and have no way to edit it (as a community), ever again.

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 4:22 AM To: brynn Cc: Nicolas Dufour ; Maren Hachmann ; inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Also, according to https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/

This document is GPL v3. I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.

We should sort out what license we will offer the new manual under as a first step, before starting any work. We need to reach a consensus before work can proceed.

-C

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 11:14 AM, C R <cajhne@...400...> wrote:

...

Is anyone discussing a copyrighted book or manual at this point? If so, let's not. It's Copyleft or Public Domain. No proprietary books or content should be included in official Inkscape documentation. We need to be able to freely revise, edit, distribute without the legal entanglements.

-C

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 8:28 AM, brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:

...

• How does version control work for booktype?

...

This question will probably make more sense when you make the next post you promised from a different message. I had asked why we were talking about using gitlab and all that, if we were still focused on the FLOSS translation/manual. And you said you had an idea to present that you didn't have time at that moment.

I can't really see a marriage of these 2 projects (free manual, copyrighted book of tutorials). But I'm looking forward to hearing your proposal :-)

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 1:28 PM To: Nicolas Dufour ; brynn ; C R Cc: inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Hi Nicolas :D,

thank you!

What I would like to know (and what is now buried deep in the email stream) is:

• How does version control work for booktype? Could it be combined with

a git repository, or does it use a fully independent system? (I couldn't find a direct hint, maybe it's just using the django database to keep track of changes/edits?)

• What is the source file format of booktype? Markdown? (guessing from

the requirements for pip)

Regards, Maren

Am 01.05.2017 um 21:08 schrieb Nicolas Dufour:

...

Hi all,

I'm just back from two weeks away, and as the thread is very long now I didn't find time to read everything. Sorry if I'm off-topic.

Le Lundi 1 mai 2017 13h07, Maren Hachmann <maren@...3165...> a écrit :

...

I only wish Nicolas or Elisa could be here to give us some more in-depth

info about their server's capabilities

...

Not sure what you mean. Of course the Inkscape project can use the French FM server for the translation, but note that an English version also exists (http://write.flossmanuals.net/). It would probably be easier to work on the English server directly.

and their book's licencing.

...

If I remember correctly, the GPLv2 was the first license that was chosen when the FM project was created about 10 years ago, and some books still use it. But the server allows users to choose a different license when creating a new book (CC, GPL, PD). As for the Inkscape book, I see it's under a GPLv3. I don't know if it can be changed (and how) or not. Elisa could probably give more details.

Regards, -- Nicolas

On Tue, 2017-05-02 at 20:29 +0200, Maren Hachmann wrote:

...

If it needs screenshots that are close up, showing a drawing, I

could do

...

that. But anything showing dialogs, it would not be a good idea,

imo.

...

But I'll have a go at using a translator.  And if I see any places

where

...

I can make a screenshot ready, I'll do that too.

• Sounds great :) Thank you, Brynn!

I was thinking of something a little bit mad. Taking screenshots of our gtk3 inkscape build using the svg screenshots program. Seeing if we could standardise the size and look of any of our screenshots and maybe even translate the svg instead of the app each time.

But so far that's just a whistful thought.

Martin,

(this is not a direct reply to the last email by Brynn, just generally to this new licence thread)

@Brynn / CR: I think the term copyright does not mean the same as 'All rights reserved'. Copyright is just an umbrella term for all of them. Just look at the Inkscape files: (line 10) http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~inkscape.dev/inkscape/0.92.x/view/head:/src/ink...

@Brynn/CR/Martin: Yes, the Intro book at flossmanuals is licenced GPLv3. But: I have asked if the licence could be changed/amended, to include CC-By-SA (you may have missed that in the stream). Only the author hasn't answered yet. Jazzynico said he would contact her. So we are waiting for her answer, before we can decide to pursue / not pursue that road.

@everyone: FTR, I prefer CC-By-SA for a manual, too. If the Intro book cannot be licenced as CC-By-SA for some reason, then translating it would get a lower priority for me, and finding other resources for a start would rise in priority, but it's still worth being translated, because it is a good book, with a very nice tone and approach.

If someone asked me to write an Inkscape manual and to release it into PD (which is impossible, being German... we cannot cast off the moral rights, even if we want to, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_rights#In_Europe), CC0 is possible, though) I wouldn't do it. I do use that license for small artwork, and I would use it for stuff where it cannot be enforced anyway, or which is of humanitary nature. But here, no lives depend on it, and I want to make sure that people's work is credited, and that all derivatives of the manual may be shared freely. Not just /most/, but *all*.

@Brynn: (question from last email) Probably if the teaching material doesn't use the same licence. But it's still possible to use different licences for different parts, as long as you make a note of that, and don't mix them completely, as far as I know. So, I don't see an issue, rather a chance that more teaching materials might choose a good licence ;-) (I'd like to see more teachers and students use Inkscape, btw.)

Maren

Am 02.05.2017 um 20:42 schrieb brynn:

I'm not very knowledgable about licensing or licenses. But what part of GPL prohibits any of the 4 things you listed?

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 11:23 AM To: Brynn Cc: inkscape-devel ; Maren Hachmann ; Inkscape-Docs ; Nicolas Dufour ; Sylvain Chiron Subject: Re: License for the new manual

Going to simplify a bit:

...

From my perspective anyone should be able to take parts of the official inkscape

manual and:

1. Modify it, update it, correct it
2. Combine it with other teaching content (rules out GPL3, GPL2, and

CC-BY-SA) 3. Use it in commercial products, or part of a compilation of manuals (Rules out CC-BY-NC-SA) 4. Use it any other way they like, because it's just tutorials for using Inkscape, and anyone who wants to learn or spread the word about Inkscape should be able to do so however they like. There's literally no wrong way to do that. :)

imho we should avoid licenses that were not made for documentation entirely (GPL anything).

Thoughts about this? -C

On 2 May 2017 3:57 p.m., "brynn" <brynn@...3133...> wrote: Retitled - "License for the new manual" (was "Any chance we can make some docs.....") Also copying in Sylvain, since he's been working on translation. I know there's another translator, but I can't seem to open the manual today, to look it up. So if someone knows who that is, please copy them in to this new thread.

We should sort out what license we will offer the new manual under as a first step, before starting any work. We need to reach a consensus before work can proceed.

Well, considering work has already started on the manual (the translating part), we might be a little behind the 8 ball. But I agree that we need to nail down the license asap.

Retitling this to start the discussion.

Also, according to https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/ This document is GPL v3. I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.

Well that's the same license as Inkscape. How is it too restrictive?

For me, the main point is that it needs a license that will allow anyone to edit it. We can't get stuck with an outdated manual and have no way to edit it (as a community), ever again.

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 4:22 AM To: brynn Cc: Nicolas Dufour ; Maren Hachmann ; inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Also, according to https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/

This document is GPL v3. I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.

We should sort out what license we will offer the new manual under as a first step, before starting any work. We need to reach a consensus before work can proceed.

-C

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 11:14 AM, C R <cajhne@...400...> wrote: Is anyone discussing a copyrighted book or manual at this point? If so, let's not. It's Copyleft or Public Domain. No proprietary books or content should be included in official Inkscape documentation. We need to be able to freely revise, edit, distribute without the legal entanglements.

-C

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 8:28 AM, brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:

• How does version control work for booktype?

This question will probably make more sense when you make the next post you promised from a different message. I had asked why we were talking about using gitlab and all that, if we were still focused on the FLOSS translation/manual. And you said you had an idea to present that you didn't have time at that moment.

I can't really see a marriage of these 2 projects (free manual, copyrighted book of tutorials). But I'm looking forward to hearing your proposal :-)

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 1:28 PM To: Nicolas Dufour ; brynn ; C R Cc: inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Hi Nicolas :D,

thank you!

What I would like to know (and what is now buried deep in the email stream) is:

• How does version control work for booktype? Could it be combined with

a git repository, or does it use a fully independent system? (I couldn't find a direct hint, maybe it's just using the django database to keep track of changes/edits?)

• What is the source file format of booktype? Markdown? (guessing from

the requirements for pip)

Regards, Maren

Am 01.05.2017 um 21:08 schrieb Nicolas Dufour:

Hi all,

I'm just back from two weeks away, and as the thread is very long now I didn't find time to read everything. Sorry if I'm off-topic.

Le Lundi 1 mai 2017 13h07, Maren Hachmann <maren@...3165...> a écrit :

I only wish Nicolas or Elisa could be here to give us some more in-depth

info about their server's capabilities

Not sure what you mean. Of course the Inkscape project can use the French FM server for the translation, but note that an English version also exists (http://write.flossmanuals.net/). It would probably be easier to work on the English server directly.

and their book's licencing.

If I remember correctly, the GPLv2 was the first license that was chosen when the FM project was created about 10 years ago, and some books still use it. But the server allows users to choose a different license when creating a new book (CC, GPL, PD). As for the Inkscape book, I see it's under a GPLv3. I don't know if it can be changed (and how) or not. Elisa could probably give more details.

Regards, -- Nicolas

With the 'good licence' I meant CC-By-SA, sorry for the confusion.

Maren

Am 02.05.2017 um 21:11 schrieb Maren Hachmann:

(this is not a direct reply to the last email by Brynn, just generally to this new licence thread)

@Brynn / CR: I think the term copyright does not mean the same as 'All rights reserved'. Copyright is just an umbrella term for all of them. Just look at the Inkscape files: (line 10) http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~inkscape.dev/inkscape/0.92.x/view/head:/src/ink...

@Brynn/CR/Martin: Yes, the Intro book at flossmanuals is licenced GPLv3. But: I have asked if the licence could be changed/amended, to include CC-By-SA (you may have missed that in the stream). Only the author hasn't answered yet. Jazzynico said he would contact her. So we are waiting for her answer, before we can decide to pursue / not pursue that road.

@everyone: FTR, I prefer CC-By-SA for a manual, too. If the Intro book cannot be licenced as CC-By-SA for some reason, then translating it would get a lower priority for me, and finding other resources for a start would rise in priority, but it's still worth being translated, because it is a good book, with a very nice tone and approach.

If someone asked me to write an Inkscape manual and to release it into PD (which is impossible, being German... we cannot cast off the moral rights, even if we want to, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_rights#In_Europe), CC0 is possible, though) I wouldn't do it. I do use that license for small artwork, and I would use it for stuff where it cannot be enforced anyway, or which is of humanitary nature. But here, no lives depend on it, and I want to make sure that people's work is credited, and that all derivatives of the manual may be shared freely. Not just /most/, but *all*.

@Brynn: (question from last email) Probably if the teaching material doesn't use the same licence. But it's still possible to use different licences for different parts, as long as you make a note of that, and don't mix them completely, as far as I know. So, I don't see an issue, rather a chance that more teaching materials might choose a good licence ;-) (I'd like to see more teachers and students use Inkscape, btw.)

Maren

Am 02.05.2017 um 20:42 schrieb brynn:

...

I'm not very knowledgable about licensing or licenses. But what part of GPL prohibits any of the 4 things you listed?

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 11:23 AM To: Brynn Cc: inkscape-devel ; Maren Hachmann ; Inkscape-Docs ; Nicolas Dufour ; Sylvain Chiron Subject: Re: License for the new manual

Going to simplify a bit:

...

From my perspective anyone should be able to take parts of the official inkscape

manual and:

1. Modify it, update it, correct it
2. Combine it with other teaching content (rules out GPL3, GPL2, and

CC-BY-SA) 3. Use it in commercial products, or part of a compilation of manuals (Rules out CC-BY-NC-SA) 4. Use it any other way they like, because it's just tutorials for using Inkscape, and anyone who wants to learn or spread the word about Inkscape should be able to do so however they like. There's literally no wrong way to do that. :)

imho we should avoid licenses that were not made for documentation entirely (GPL anything).

Thoughts about this? -C

On 2 May 2017 3:57 p.m., "brynn" <brynn@...3133...> wrote: Retitled - "License for the new manual" (was "Any chance we can make some docs.....") Also copying in Sylvain, since he's been working on translation. I know there's another translator, but I can't seem to open the manual today, to look it up. So if someone knows who that is, please copy them in to this new thread.

We should sort out what license we will offer the new manual under as a first step, before starting any work. We need to reach a consensus before work can proceed.

Well, considering work has already started on the manual (the translating part), we might be a little behind the 8 ball. But I agree that we need to nail down the license asap.

Retitling this to start the discussion.

Also, according to https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/ This document is GPL v3. I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.

Well that's the same license as Inkscape. How is it too restrictive?

For me, the main point is that it needs a license that will allow anyone to edit it. We can't get stuck with an outdated manual and have no way to edit it (as a community), ever again.

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 4:22 AM To: brynn Cc: Nicolas Dufour ; Maren Hachmann ; inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Also, according to https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/

This document is GPL v3. I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.

We should sort out what license we will offer the new manual under as a first step, before starting any work. We need to reach a consensus before work can proceed.

-C

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 11:14 AM, C R <cajhne@...400...> wrote: Is anyone discussing a copyrighted book or manual at this point? If so, let's not. It's Copyleft or Public Domain. No proprietary books or content should be included in official Inkscape documentation. We need to be able to freely revise, edit, distribute without the legal entanglements.

-C

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 8:28 AM, brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:

• How does version control work for booktype?

This question will probably make more sense when you make the next post you promised from a different message. I had asked why we were talking about using gitlab and all that, if we were still focused on the FLOSS translation/manual. And you said you had an idea to present that you didn't have time at that moment.

I can't really see a marriage of these 2 projects (free manual, copyrighted book of tutorials). But I'm looking forward to hearing your proposal :-)

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 1:28 PM To: Nicolas Dufour ; brynn ; C R Cc: inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Hi Nicolas :D,

thank you!

What I would like to know (and what is now buried deep in the email stream) is:

• How does version control work for booktype? Could it be combined with

a git repository, or does it use a fully independent system? (I couldn't find a direct hint, maybe it's just using the django database to keep track of changes/edits?)

• What is the source file format of booktype? Markdown? (guessing from

the requirements for pip)

Regards, Maren

Am 01.05.2017 um 21:08 schrieb Nicolas Dufour:

Hi all,

I'm just back from two weeks away, and as the thread is very long now I didn't find time to read everything. Sorry if I'm off-topic.

Le Lundi 1 mai 2017 13h07, Maren Hachmann <maren@...3165...> a écrit :

I only wish Nicolas or Elisa could be here to give us some more in-depth

info about their server's capabilities

Not sure what you mean. Of course the Inkscape project can use the French FM server for the translation, but note that an English version also exists (http://write.flossmanuals.net/). It would probably be easier to work on the English server directly.

and their book's licencing.

If I remember correctly, the GPLv2 was the first license that was chosen when the FM project was created about 10 years ago, and some books still use it. But the server allows users to choose a different license when creating a new book (CC, GPL, PD). As for the Inkscape book, I see it's under a GPLv3. I don't know if it can be changed (and how) or not. Elisa could probably give more details.

Regards, -- Nicolas

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Thanks again, Nicolas! Booktype 2.x (and its predecessor) definitely looks nice, seems to be easy to use and to produce quality output.

I'm compiling a list of the different options atm. with pros and cons.

Maren

Am 01.05.2017 um 22:08 schrieb Nicolas Dufour:

Le Lundi 1 mai 2017 21h28, Maren Hachmann <maren@...3165...> a écrit :

...

• How does version control work for booktype? Could it be combined

with a git repository, or does it use a fully independent system? (I couldn't find a direct hint, maybe it's just using the django database to keep track of changes/edits?)

As far as I can tell, everything (except the attached documents, e.g. images embedded in the chapters) is stored in a database. Each version of a chapter is stored with a revision number and can be compared with any other revision of the same chapter (the user interface looks like a wikimedia version history page). So I'm not sure using git to store the content (the database dump?) is a good idea here.

...

• What is the source file format of booktype? Markdown? (guessing

from the requirements for pip)

No, Booktype uses an online wysiwyg editor to edit the books and save the chapters in HTML directly.

Note that both the English and French Flossmanuals servers still use an old (1.6.1) Booktype version, and things may have changed in the new 2.x branch (officially launched last year).

Regards, -- Nicolas

On Tue, 2017-05-02 at 20:19 +0100, C R wrote:

but I'll bend.

Thanks CR. That's very gracious.

I'm counting the straw poll as:

CC-BY-SA - Martin, Maren, a bending CR

I'll commit us to a CC-BY-SA license by tomorrow unless some other developers or docs contributors step in against.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

Hi Martin, that is indeed a MAD idea! But a quite attractive one!

Keep me posted if this gets off the ground.

--Victor Westmann

2017-05-02 11:36 GMT-07:00 Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...>:

On Tue, 2017-05-02 at 20:29 +0200, Maren Hachmann wrote:

...

...

If it needs screenshots that are close up, showing a drawing, I

could do

...

that. But anything showing dialogs, it would not be a good idea,

imo.

...

But I'll have a go at using a translator. And if I see any places

where

...

I can make a screenshot ready, I'll do that too.

• Sounds great :) Thank you, Brynn!

I was thinking of something a little bit mad. Taking screenshots of our gtk3 inkscape build using the svg screenshots program. Seeing if we could standardise the size and look of any of our screenshots and maybe even translate the svg instead of the app each time.

But so far that's just a whistful thought.

Martin,

---

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I'd like that better too, but some contributors want to ensure the licensing isn't mixed with non free content. I'd rather the information be useful and distributed as widely as possible, but well, flexible reeds bend.

On 2 May 2017 11:02 p.m., "Marc Jeanmougin" <marc@...3062...> wrote:

Why the "SA" and not just CC-BY ?

-- Mc, just curious

On 05/02/2017 09:53 PM, Martin Owens wrote:

...

On Tue, 2017-05-02 at 20:19 +0100, C R wrote:

...

but I'll bend.

Thanks CR. That's very gracious.

I'm counting the straw poll as:

CC-BY-SA - Martin, Maren, a bending CR

I'll commit us to a CC-BY-SA license by tomorrow unless some other developers or docs contributors step in against.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

---

---

...

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Hi Elisa. Yes, CC-BY would be the most flexible. If you don't mind the contents used in other CC-BY publications, this is the best license that preserves credit for yourself and anyone else who has contributed.

Please note, if there are other authors/contributors, you MUST get their permission before changing the license, and they must all agree to change it to CC-BY.

Thanks very much for your help! We look forward to helping complete your very good document. -C

On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 9:00 AM, Elisa Godoy de Castro Guerra <elisa.dcg@...400...> wrote:

Hello,

I am the french author of this book. I want this book open, so i can change de licence if we need. Wich one would be safe ?

cc-By ?

Regards, Elisa

2017-05-02 16:57 GMT+02:00 brynn <brynn@...3133...>:

...

Retitled - "License for the new manual" (was "Any chance we can make some docs.....") Also copying in Sylvain, since he's been working on translation. I know there's another translator, but I can't seem to open the manual today, to look it up. So if someone knows who that is, please copy them in to this new thread.

...

We should sort out what license we will offer the new manual under as

a first step, before starting any work. We need to reach a consensus before work can proceed.

Well, considering work has already started on the manual (the translating part), we might be a little behind the 8 ball. But I agree that we need to nail down the license asap.

Retitling this to start the discussion.

...

Also, according to

https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/ This document is GPL v3. I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.

Well that's the same license as Inkscape. How is it too restrictive?

For me, the main point is that it needs a license that will allow anyone to edit it. We can't get stuck with an outdated manual and have no way to edit it (as a community), ever again.

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 4:22 AM To: brynn Cc: Nicolas Dufour ; Maren Hachmann ; inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Also, according to https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/

This document is GPL v3. I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.

We should sort out what license we will offer the new manual under as a first step, before starting any work. We need to reach a consensus before work can proceed.

-C

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 11:14 AM, C R <cajhne@...400...> wrote:

...

Is anyone discussing a copyrighted book or manual at this point? If so, let's not. It's Copyleft or Public Domain. No proprietary books or content should be included in official Inkscape documentation. We need to be able to freely revise, edit, distribute without the legal entanglements.

-C

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 8:28 AM, brynn <brynn@...3133...> wrote:

...

...

• How does version control work for booktype?

This question will probably make more sense when you make the next post you promised from a different message. I had asked why we were talking about using gitlab and all that, if we were still focused on the FLOSS translation/manual. And you said you had an idea to present that you didn't have time at that moment.

I can't really see a marriage of these 2 projects (free manual, copyrighted book of tutorials). But I'm looking forward to hearing your proposal :-)

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 1:28 PM To: Nicolas Dufour ; brynn ; C R Cc: inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Hi Nicolas :D,

thank you!

What I would like to know (and what is now buried deep in the email stream) is:

• How does version control work for booktype? Could it be combined with

a git repository, or does it use a fully independent system? (I couldn't find a direct hint, maybe it's just using the django database to keep track of changes/edits?)

• What is the source file format of booktype? Markdown? (guessing from

the requirements for pip)

Regards, Maren

Am 01.05.2017 um 21:08 schrieb Nicolas Dufour:

...

Hi all,

I'm just back from two weeks away, and as the thread is very long now I didn't find time to read everything. Sorry if I'm off-topic.

Le Lundi 1 mai 2017 13h07, Maren Hachmann <maren@...3165...> a écrit :

...

I only wish Nicolas or Elisa could be here to give us some more in-depth

...

info about their server's capabilities

Not sure what you mean. Of course the Inkscape project can use the French FM server for the translation, but note that an English version also exists (http://write.flossmanuals.net/). It would probably be easier to work on the English server directly.

...

and their book's licencing.

If I remember correctly, the GPLv2 was the first license that was chosen when the FM project was created about 10 years ago, and some books still use it. But the server allows users to choose a different license when creating a new book (CC, GPL, PD). As for the Inkscape book, I see it's under a GPLv3. I don't know if it can be changed (and how) or not. Elisa could probably give more details.

Regards, -- Nicolas

---

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--

Elisa de Castro Guerra

Le 02/05/2017 à 16:57, brynn a écrit :

I know there's another translator, but I can't seem to open the manual today, to look it up. So if someone knows who that is, please copy them in to this new thread.

The other translator is Hinerangi. But she could not invest the translation actively, so it is suspended again — :/.

...

Also, according to https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/ This document is GPL v3. I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.

Yes, it is a weird choice — :). -- Sylvain

A huge 'merci' from me, too, Elisa! :D

Maren

Am 03.05.2017 um 20:27 schrieb Shlomi Fish:

Hi Elisa!

On Wed, 3 May 2017 13:56:29 +0200 Elisa Godoy de Castro Guerra <elisa.dcg@...400...> wrote:

...

Thanks for your reply.

In the french version, it's only one author. https://fr.flossmanuals.net/initiation-inkscape/a-propos-de-ce-livre/

I have change the licence.

Many thanks!

-- Shlomi

...

Regards,

Le 02/05/2017 à 16:57, C R a écrit :> Also, according to

https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/

This document is GPL v3. I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.

Le 03/05/2017 à 23:00, Maren Hachmann a écrit :

• Sylvain, if you would be okay with adapting the licence of your

translation, too, could you contact Hinerangi about the licencing (if she made any changes, that is), so we can base our efforts on your and Hinerangi's translations?

(even if Elisa changed hers, that doesn't mean that you /have/ to change it, because you 'forked' before the licence changed - but it would be nice :))

Yes… What are the steps? We just have to change the detail in the ‘About this book’ chapter? -- Sylvain

Le 05/05/2017 à 16:02, Maren Hachmann a écrit :

• When exploring flossmanualsfr, I noticed there are two places where a

licence can be indicated:

1. in the book's settings
2. in the book's contents

Yes. I have made the change. -- Sylvain

Thanks Sylvain!

On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Sylvain Chiron <chironsylvain@...3370...> wrote:

Le 05/05/2017 à 16:02, Maren Hachmann a écrit :

...

• When exploring flossmanualsfr, I noticed there are two places where a

licence can be indicated:

1. in the book's settings
2. in the book's contents

Yes. I have made the change.

Sylvain

On Fri, 2017-05-05 at 08:12 -0600, brynn wrote:

I don't understand the first thing you described, about something build and translate svg.  But "the SVG screenshots program" caught my attention.  What is that?

It's a way of taking a screenshot, where instead of getting a png with a flat canvas of pixels, you get an svg, with boxes and text where they appeared on the screen.

It only works for Gtk3 apps, so inskcape 0.91, gimp, anything written for Qt, windows programs and Firefox all wouldn't work. (although there are browser screenshot programs for that)

I suspect that such a venture would be fraught with niggles like menus, spacing, default icon themes and so on. So I put it on the back burner. But an interesting idea if anyone else is excited by it.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

Am 05.05.2017 um 19:57 schrieb Sylvain Chiron:

Le 05/05/2017 à 16:18, Maren Hachmann a écrit :

...

Merci! :D (was Hinerangi's consent required?)

I think she translated the first four chapters, so I’d say yes.

Here is offered the opportunity for her to oppose.

- Actually, she would need to consent, not be given opportunity to oppose.

Hinerangi, in case you haven't gotten the full info: We're asking you if you would be okay with the licence of your translated chapters in the linked book to be changed from GPL to CC-By-SA.

This is so the book can become part of a new manual effort for Inkscape.

Please let us know as soon as possible :)

Thank you, Maren

https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/

Regards,

Sylvain

Yay! Glad to have that settled :-D

Thanks Maren!

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2017 4:37 PM To: inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] License for the new manual

Update: I got a reply from Hinerangi, and she wrote:

"I'm OK to relicense it to whatever you guys need (I guess the original author also needs to be OK, if translations are considered a derived work...). "

So the 'Get started with Inkscape' book on flossmanualsfr.net is now officially CC-By.

Maren

(The below licence request with the 'SA' was an inadvertant mistake... I didn't want to determine or change the licence before an official decision has been made. Fortunately, I got it right in the private mail to her.)

Am 06.05.2017 um 00:03 schrieb Maren Hachmann:

Am 05.05.2017 um 19:57 schrieb Sylvain Chiron:

...

Le 05/05/2017 à 16:18, Maren Hachmann a écrit :

...

Merci! :D (was Hinerangi's consent required?)

I think she translated the first four chapters, so I’d say yes.

Here is offered the opportunity for her to oppose.

• Actually, she would need to consent, not be given opportunity to oppose.

Hinerangi, in case you haven't gotten the full info: We're asking you if you would be okay with the licence of your translated chapters in the linked book to be changed from GPL to CC-By-SA.

This is so the book can become part of a new manual effort for Inkscape.

Please let us know as soon as possible :)

Thank you, Maren

...

https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/

Regards,

Sylvain

---

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Sorry, I think I need to explain and ask one last question:

I asked for CC-By, because that allows the licence to be changed when you make derivatives, and because it wasn't clear yet which licence we might want to use in the end, and because this wasn't my decision to make.

Martin, you took it on you to count the votes. I think CC0 is out of the question by now. What is the current status?

(Mc asked about CC-By, I think. I bet CR would prefer CC-By to CC-By-SA, from what I read.)

Do people now just want to go with CC-By, either because they like it most, or to just 'be done' with it and start working? (I'd like to have some kind of final decision).

Maren

Am 10.05.2017 um 03:44 schrieb Victor Westmann:

Blessed be the LORD! ;-)

Yay! +1

--Victor Westmann

2017-05-09 18:43 GMT-07:00 brynn <brynn@...3133... mailto:brynn@...3154.....>:

Yay!  Glad to have that settled  :-D

Thanks Maren!

-----Original Message-----
From: Maren Hachmann
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2017 4:37 PM
To: inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
<mailto:inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] License for the new manual

Update: I got a reply from Hinerangi, and she wrote:

"I'm OK to relicense it to whatever you guys need (I guess the original
author also needs to be OK, if translations are considered a derived
work...). "

So the 'Get started with Inkscape' book on flossmanualsfr.net
<http://flossmanualsfr.net> is now
officially CC-By.

Maren

(The below licence request with the 'SA' was an inadvertant mistake... I
didn't want to determine or change the licence before an official
decision has been made. Fortunately, I got it right in the private mail
to her.)

Am 06.05.2017 um 00:03 schrieb Maren Hachmann:
> Am 05.05.2017 um 19:57 schrieb Sylvain Chiron:
>> Le 05/05/2017 à 16:18, Maren Hachmann a écrit :
>>> Merci! :D (was Hinerangi's consent required?)
>>
>> I think she translated the first four chapters, so I’d say yes.
>>
>> Here is offered the opportunity for her to oppose.
>
> - Actually, she would need to consent, not be given opportunity to
oppose.
>
> Hinerangi, in case you haven't gotten the full info:
> We're asking you if you would be okay with the licence of your
> translated chapters in the linked book to be changed from GPL to
CC-By-SA.
>
> This is so the book can become part of a new manual effort for
Inkscape.
>
> Please let us know as soon as possible :)
>
> Thank you,
>  Maren
>
>> https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/
<https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/>
>>
>> Regards,
>> --
>> Sylvain
>>
>
>
>
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<mailto:Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
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>


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I think Maren is spot-on, and I would again would like to advise CC-By be continued in the spirit of the original. The SA isn't really necessary for a doc of this type, and will allow the most flexibility with re-licensing for printed books, etc. I am not a lawyer, and neither is anyone else on the team that I'm aware of. We all have a rather loose understanding of the implications, and thus if people in the project wish to re-license for printed distribution it makes sense not to hand-cuff it with a Share-Alike that may be incompatible with that. Since we are likely to have many contributors, it may be infeasible to get everyone's permission to do so.

Thoughts? -C

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 12:50 AM, Victor Westmann <victor.westmann@...400...> wrote:

We really need to start working on it.

We need to have the official, original docs for Inkscape the sooner the better. ;-)

Cheers,

--Victor Westmann

2017-05-10 16:18 GMT-07:00 Maren Hachmann <maren@...3165...>:

...

Sorry, I think I need to explain and ask one last question:

I asked for CC-By, because that allows the licence to be changed when you make derivatives, and because it wasn't clear yet which licence we might want to use in the end, and because this wasn't my decision to make.

Martin, you took it on you to count the votes. I think CC0 is out of the question by now. What is the current status?

(Mc asked about CC-By, I think. I bet CR would prefer CC-By to CC-By-SA, from what I read.)

Do people now just want to go with CC-By, either because they like it most, or to just 'be done' with it and start working? (I'd like to have some kind of final decision).

Maren

Am 10.05.2017 um 03:44 schrieb Victor Westmann:

...

Blessed be the LORD! ;-)

Yay! +1

--Victor Westmann

2017-05-09 18:43 GMT-07:00 brynn <brynn@...3133... mailto:brynn@...3133...>:

Yay!  Glad to have that settled  :-D

Thanks Maren!

-----Original Message-----
From: Maren Hachmann
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2017 4:37 PM
To: inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
<mailto:inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] License for the new manual

Update: I got a reply from Hinerangi, and she wrote:

"I'm OK to relicense it to whatever you guys need (I guess the

original author also needs to be OK, if translations are considered a derived work...). "

So the 'Get started with Inkscape' book on flossmanualsfr.net
<http://flossmanualsfr.net> is now
officially CC-By.

Maren

(The below licence request with the 'SA' was an inadvertant

mistake... I didn't want to determine or change the licence before an official decision has been made. Fortunately, I got it right in the private mail to her.)

Am 06.05.2017 um 00:03 schrieb Maren Hachmann:
> Am 05.05.2017 um 19:57 schrieb Sylvain Chiron:
>> Le 05/05/2017 à 16:18, Maren Hachmann a écrit :
>>> Merci! :D (was Hinerangi's consent required?)
>>
>> I think she translated the first four chapters, so I’d say yes.
>>
>> Here is offered the opportunity for her to oppose.
>
> - Actually, she would need to consent, not be given opportunity to
oppose.
>
> Hinerangi, in case you haven't gotten the full info:
> We're asking you if you would be okay with the licence of your
> translated chapters in the linked book to be changed from GPL to
CC-By-SA.
>
> This is so the book can become part of a new manual effort for
Inkscape.
>
> Please let us know as soon as possible :)
>
> Thank you,
>  Maren
>
>> https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/
<https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/>
>>
>> Regards,
>> --
>> Sylvain
>>
>
>
>

---

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>

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Thanks for clarifying, Martin! -C

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 5:54 PM, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:

Hi Maren, Victor, CR,

Yes, let's settle this. CC-BY 4.0

https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Shall be used for the inkscape manual.

I believe there's a weighty enough consensus not to beat around the bush any more.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

On Thu, 2017-05-11 at 01:18 +0200, Maren Hachmann wrote:

...

Sorry, I think I need to explain and ask one last question:

I asked for CC-By, because that allows the licence to be changed when you make derivatives, and because it wasn't clear yet which licence we might want to use in the end, and because this wasn't my decision to make.

Martin, you took it on you to count the votes. I think CC0 is out of the question by now. What is the current status?

(Mc asked about CC-By, I think. I bet CR would prefer CC-By to CC-By- SA, from what I read.)

Do people now just want to go with CC-By, either because they like it most, or to just 'be done' with it and start working? (I'd like to have some kind of final decision).

---

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I've just played around at flossmanuals.net a bit, and was surprised how easy and quick it is to import the book there from the French site.

(I intended to just give it a try, but it worked so well, that I got carried away starting to edit it...)

Elisa, can you give Mick the heads up that we've managed to do the import ourselves already?

I'm working on importing the chapters from the French book, so we have the files and the original texts readily available. When that's done, I'll send a message to the list to invite editors.

Kind Regards, Maren

Am 11.05.2017 um 22:58 schrieb Maren Hachmann:

Great :)

So let's keep our fingers crossed that it'll be possible to have an English interface for working on the book - and then we can call out for people to open up accounts.

Kind Regards, Maren

Am 11.05.2017 um 21:05 schrieb C R:

...

Thanks for clarifying, Martin! -C

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 5:54 PM, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:

...

Hi Maren, Victor, CR,

Yes, let's settle this. CC-BY 4.0

https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Shall be used for the inkscape manual.

I believe there's a weighty enough consensus not to beat around the bush any more.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

On Thu, 2017-05-11 at 01:18 +0200, Maren Hachmann wrote:

...

Sorry, I think I need to explain and ask one last question:

I asked for CC-By, because that allows the licence to be changed when you make derivatives, and because it wasn't clear yet which licence we might want to use in the end, and because this wasn't my decision to make.

Martin, you took it on you to count the votes. I think CC0 is out of the question by now. What is the current status?

(Mc asked about CC-By, I think. I bet CR would prefer CC-By to CC-By- SA, from what I read.)

Do people now just want to go with CC-By, either because they like it most, or to just 'be done' with it and start working? (I'd like to have some kind of final decision).

---

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---

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Thanks Maren. Sorry for replying twice. After I sent the first, I realized it needed to be copied to Docs list.

Can you give link to the new English one?

Thanks, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2017 6:40 PM To: inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] [Inkscape-docs] License for the new manual

I've just played around at flossmanuals.net a bit, and was surprised how easy and quick it is to import the book there from the French site.

(I intended to just give it a try, but it worked so well, that I got carried away starting to edit it...)

Elisa, can you give Mick the heads up that we've managed to do the import ourselves already?

I'm working on importing the chapters from the French book, so we have the files and the original texts readily available. When that's done, I'll send a message to the list to invite editors.

Kind Regards, Maren

Am 11.05.2017 um 22:58 schrieb Maren Hachmann:

Great :)

So let's keep our fingers crossed that it'll be possible to have an English interface for working on the book - and then we can call out for people to open up accounts.

Kind Regards, Maren

Am 11.05.2017 um 21:05 schrieb C R:

...

Thanks for clarifying, Martin! -C

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 5:54 PM, Martin Owens <doctormo@...400...> wrote:

...

Hi Maren, Victor, CR,

Yes, let's settle this. CC-BY 4.0

https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Shall be used for the inkscape manual.

I believe there's a weighty enough consensus not to beat around the bush any more.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

On Thu, 2017-05-11 at 01:18 +0200, Maren Hachmann wrote:

...

Sorry, I think I need to explain and ask one last question:

I asked for CC-By, because that allows the licence to be changed when you make derivatives, and because it wasn't clear yet which licence we might want to use in the end, and because this wasn't my decision to make.

Martin, you took it on you to count the votes. I think CC0 is out of the question by now. What is the current status?

(Mc asked about CC-By, I think. I bet CR would prefer CC-By to CC-By- SA, from what I read.)

Do people now just want to go with CC-By, either because they like it most, or to just 'be done' with it and start working? (I'd like to have some kind of final decision).

---

Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel

---

Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel

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