2:35 p.m.
Heya,
I just read your nice interview at groklaw
(http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050130002908154). First of all, this
is really exciting, but I wonder if you could write up more about what is needed
of Inkscape for this new format. I see in your interview you note that there is
a needed filter for Inkscape, but it is not clarified what this means. I'm
cc'ing the Inkscape development list about this. I just wonder how this
OpenDocument format (the newly standardized open office xml format) relates to
Inkscape and what you are asking to be done.
Or do you want a filter that say one has an SVG file, then one can convert that
to an OpenDocument file. I don't think that would be difficult. But, what about
OpenOffice support for the SVG file format?
Please copy me and/or the Inkscape-devel list and I will make sure they get the
response. Or, please reply to me and the list if you are on Inkscape's list.
Thanks,
Jon
--
Jon Phillips
USA PH 510.499.0894
jon@...235...
http://www.rejon.org
Inkscape (http://inkscape.org)
Open Clip Art Library (www.openclipart.org)
CVS Book (http://cvsbook.ucsd.edu)
Scale Journal (http://scale.ucsd.edu)
4:38 p.m.
Jon Phillips wrote:
Heya,
I just read your nice interview at groklaw
(http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050130002908154). First of
all, this is really exciting, but I wonder if you could write up more
about what is needed of Inkscape for this new format. I see in your
interview you note that there is a needed filter for Inkscape, but it is
not clarified what this means. I'm cc'ing the Inkscape development list
about this. I just wonder how this OpenDocument format (the newly
standardized open office xml format) relates to Inkscape and what you
are asking to be done.
first: the OpenDocument format is something like 99% identical with the
old OpenOffice.org format.
i'm not sure what was Daniel idea, but i'll speculate: OpenOffice.org
Draw files are XML and very similar with SVG, probably this is why
Daniel expect such import filter to be not to hard to develop.
BTW, Daniel, you forgot to mention in the Groklaw article that
OpenOffice.org file format is supported also by Scribus:
http://www.scribus.org.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=a...
Or do you want a filter that say one has an SVG file, then one can
convert that to an OpenDocument file. I don't think that would be
i think he want the other way around: Inkscape to be able to open
OpenDocument files (probably the ones made in OOo Draw)
difficult. But, what about OpenOffice support for the SVG file
format?
OpenOffice.org can *export* in SVG.
for import, some work (using a xslt filter) is done here:
http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=2497
--
nicu
4:51 p.m.
On Mon, 31 Jan 2005, Nicu Buculei wrote:
Jon Phillips wrote:
> Heya,
>
> I just read your nice interview at groklaw
> (http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050130002908154). First of
> all, this is really exciting, but I wonder if you could write up more
> about what is needed of Inkscape for this new format. I see in your
> interview you note that there is a needed filter for Inkscape, but it is
> not clarified what this means. I'm cc'ing the Inkscape development list
> about this. I just wonder how this OpenDocument format (the newly
> standardized open office xml format) relates to Inkscape and what you
> are asking to be done.
first: the OpenDocument format is something like 99% identical with the
old OpenOffice.org format.
i'm not sure what was Daniel idea, but i'll speculate: OpenOffice.org
Draw files are XML and very similar with SVG, probably this is why
Daniel expect such import filter to be not to hard to develop.
BTW, Daniel, you forgot to mention in the Groklaw article that
OpenOffice.org file format is supported also by Scribus:
http://www.scribus.org.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=a...
> Or do you want a filter that say one has an SVG file, then one can
> convert that to an OpenDocument file. I don't think that would be
i think he want the other way around: Inkscape to be able to open
OpenDocument files (probably the ones made in OOo Draw)
I've investigated and experimented with creating a converter that would
enable support for the OpenOffice format in Inkscape. The code appears
to already exist in OpenOffice, although it would be some trouble to
extricate. However, this problem could be easily addressed if
OpenOffice could provide a cmdline script to run their SVG export
extension. I.e., a sxd2svg. Given that, we could easily add support
for this file format to Inkscape.
Bryce
5:08 p.m.
Bryce Harrington wrote:
I've investigated and experimented with creating a converter that
would
enable support for the OpenOffice format in Inkscape. The code appears
to already exist in OpenOffice, although it would be some trouble to
extricate. However, this problem could be easily addressed if
OpenOffice could provide a cmdline script to run their SVG export
extension. I.e., a sxd2svg. Given that, we could easily add support
for this file format to Inkscape.
as a disadvantage, this will require a full working copy of
OpenOffice.org installed.
i know Inkscape use the same method for importing other file types, but
if we consider OpenOffice as a dependency, this is a *huge* one.
--
nicu
5:23 p.m.
On Mon, 31 Jan 2005, Nicu Buculei wrote:
Bryce Harrington wrote:
> I've investigated and experimented with creating a converter that would
> enable support for the OpenOffice format in Inkscape. The code appears
> to already exist in OpenOffice, although it would be some trouble to
> extricate. However, this problem could be easily addressed if
> OpenOffice could provide a cmdline script to run their SVG export
> extension. I.e., a sxd2svg. Given that, we could easily add support
> for this file format to Inkscape.
as a disadvantage, this will require a full working copy of
OpenOffice.org installed.
Not necessarily. The svg export extension is packaged as an .so. ldd
reports that it has some dependencies, some of which may be part of
OOo, but if it were necessary to distribute this independently of OOo, I
think there's an outside possibility that it could.
i know Inkscape use the same method for importing other file types,
but
if we consider OpenOffice as a dependency, this is a *huge* one.
It depends. It is only a dependency if someone wishes to import this
file format. Presumably, if they did, they are using OpenOffice and
will have it installed. So yes it is a large dependency size-wise, but
it's much more likely to be present on the user's system than some of
the other things we depend on.
Also note that Inkscape will install even if some of its expected
extensions aren't installed. It'll warn the user and add an error
message to the extensions error log, but will otherwise run fine.
In any case, the point is not that this is a perfect solution but that
it is one that could be obtained with a minimal amount of effort.
I think a poor solution would be to expect that someone will write a new
OODraw-to-svg converter. If someone is gung-ho to do that, more power
to them, but if not, it duplicates effort that would probably better
spent at helping OpenOffice gain an SVG importer, too. ;-)
Bryce
2:15 a.m.
Nicu Buculei wrote:
> However, this problem could be easily addressed if OpenOffice
could
> provide a cmdline script to run their SVG export extension. I.e., a
> sxd2svg. Given that, we could easily add support for this file format
> to Inkscape.
as a disadvantage, this will require a full working copy of
OpenOffice.org installed.
i know Inkscape use the same method for importing other file types, but
if we consider OpenOffice as a dependency, this is a *huge* one.
Wait people, the article was about the OpenDocument format, not OOo.
They are different animals. And OpenDocument woudl be hurt a lot if people
start associating it with OpenOffice.org. That's part of the reasonf or
the name change. OpenDocument is a separate thing, independent of OOo, and
bigger than OOo or KDE or any current supporter. Yes, the OOo format was
used as a starting point for OpenDocument, but OpenDocument didn't stay
there. I has been expanded, modified and edited with the goal of being a
neutral, extensive format that different applications can support.
Cheers,
--
Daniel Carrera | There is no urge so great as for one man to
Join OOoAuthors today! | edit another man's work.
http://www.oooauthors.org | -- Mark Twain
3:47 a.m.
On Mon, 31 Jan 2005, Daniel Carrera wrote:
Wait people, the article was about the OpenDocument format, not OOo.
They are different animals. And OpenDocument woudl be hurt a lot if people
start associating it with OpenOffice.org. That's part of the reasonf or
the name change. OpenDocument is a separate thing, independent of OOo, and
bigger than OOo or KDE or any current supporter. Yes, the OOo format was
used as a starting point for OpenDocument, but OpenDocument didn't stay
there. I has been expanded, modified and edited with the goal of being a
neutral, extensive format that different applications can support.
Ah, thanks for the correction. You can see the point of confusion
though, in that something to do with office document file formats that
is prefixed with 'Open' could easily be assumed to be a subset of
OpenOffice.org. You may need to be reminding people about this for some
time to come...
Bryce
3:50 a.m.
Bryce Harrington wrote:
Ah, thanks for the correction. You can see the point of confusion
though, in that something to do with office document file formats that
is prefixed with 'Open' could easily be assumed to be a subset of
OpenOffice.org. You may need to be reminding people about this for some
time to come...
Yes, I totally see that. But OASIS was understandably reluctant to drop
the word "Open" because it's such a powerful word. Especially at this
time in history.
Like you said, I'll need to be reminding people for some time to come. :-)
Cheers,
--
Daniel Carrera | There is no urge so great as for one man to
Join OOoAuthors today! | edit another man's work.
http://www.oooauthors.org | -- Mark Twain
5:02 p.m.
On Mon, Jan 31, 2005 at 09:38:24AM +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
i'm not sure what was Daniel idea, but i'll speculate:
OpenOffice.org
Draw files are XML and very similar with SVG, probably this is why
Daniel expect such import filter to be not to hard to develop.
The http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050130002908154 article
says "OpenDocument had [prior to submission to TAC] [the advantage of]
[r]euse of existing open standards when possible (SVG, [...])."
Is this correct?
Later, the article says "Enhancements such as XForms, SVG, and SMiL were
needed to meet the `custom-defined schema' requirement."
Does this mean that OpenDocument supports both SVG and this strange
OpenOffice.org Draw format? Why the duplication?
pjrm.
7 p.m.
On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:02:16 +1100, Peter Moulder
<Peter.Moulder@...38...> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 31, 2005 at 09:38:24AM +0200, Nicu Buculei wrote:
> i'm not sure what was Daniel idea, but i'll speculate: OpenOffice.org
> Draw files are XML and very similar with SVG, probably this is why
> Daniel expect such import filter to be not to hard to develop.
The http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050130002908154 article
says "OpenDocument had [prior to submission to TAC] [the advantage of]
[r]euse of existing open standards when possible (SVG, [...])."
Is this correct?
IIRC, OO.o is using SVG namespaces for everything images/paths/vector
related. That's it.
Alexandre
2:49 a.m.
Peter Moulder wrote:
The http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050130002908154
article
says "OpenDocument had [prior to submission to TAC] [the advantage of]
[r]euse of existing open standards when possible (SVG, [...])."
Is this correct?
Later, the article says "Enhancements such as XForms, SVG, and SMiL were
needed to meet the `custom-defined schema' requirement."
Does this mean that OpenDocument supports both SVG and this strange
OpenOffice.org Draw format? Why the duplication?
OpenDocument is not attached to OOo.
OpenDocument does not include the old OOoDraw format, but it has its own
format which is similar, and was inspired by the old format.
My understanding (I'm no expert) is that OpenDocument uses only one format
for images, but they regularly copied SVG attributes, using an svg:
namespace. For example, here is a rectangle:
<draw:rect
draw:style-name="gr1" draw:text-style-name="P1"
draw:layer="layout"
svg:width="7.62cm" svg:height="5.715cm" svg:x="8.89cm"
svg:y="9.525cm">
So it includes SVG attributes and non-SVG ones.
Cheers,
--
Daniel Carrera | There is no urge so great as for one man to
Join OOoAuthors today! | edit another man's work.
http://www.oooauthors.org | -- Mark Twain
3:32 a.m.
Quoting Daniel Carrera <dcarrera@...674...>:
My understanding (I'm no expert) is that OpenDocument uses only
one format
for images, but they regularly copied SVG attributes, using an svg:
namespace. For example, here is a rectangle:
<draw:rect
draw:style-name="gr1" draw:text-style-name="P1"
draw:layer="layout"
svg:width="7.62cm" svg:height="5.715cm" svg:x="8.89cm"
svg:y="9.525cm">
Ugh, I hope that's not the way it's actually done.
Most SVG attributes have no meaning in isolation; it's the elements
they're attached to that give them meaning (by definition -- most SVG
attributes live in per-element-type partitions, not the global attribute
partition).
Actually, since SVG width/height/etc attributes live in per-element-type
partitions, it's probably also improper to be inventing "SVG" attribtues in
the
global attribute partition like that...
-mental
3:47 a.m.
mental@...3... wrote:
> <draw:rect
> draw:style-name="gr1" draw:text-style-name="P1"
draw:layer="layout"
> svg:width="7.62cm" svg:height="5.715cm"
svg:x="8.89cm" svg:y="9.525cm">
Ugh, I hope that's not the way it's actually done.
Most SVG attributes have no meaning in isolation; it's the elements
they're attached to that give them meaning (by definition -- most SVG
attributes live in per-element-type partitions, not the global attribute
partition).
But those are not global. That tag only refers to one element, one
rectagle. A different rectangle would have different properties.
Cheers,
--
Daniel Carrera | There is no urge so great as for one man to
Join OOoAuthors today! | edit another man's work.
http://www.oooauthors.org | -- Mark Twain
4:58 a.m.
Quoting Daniel Carrera <dcarrera@...674...>:
mental@...3... wrote:
> > <draw:rect
> > draw:style-name="gr1" draw:text-style-name="P1"
draw:layer="layout"
> > svg:width="7.62cm" svg:height="5.715cm"
svg:x="8.89cm" svg:y="9.525cm">
>
> Ugh, I hope that's not the way it's actually done.
>
> Most SVG attributes have no meaning in isolation; it's the elements
> they're attached to that give them meaning (by definition -- most SVG
> attributes live in per-element-type partitions, not the global attribute
> partition).
But those are not global. That tag only refers to one element, one
rectagle. A different rectangle would have different properties.
This has to do with the distinctness of attribute names, not their values.
Please see Appendix A of the "Namespaces in XML" recommendation[1] (sections 2
and 3 in particular).
In the expanded name notation offered there, the name of the "real" SVG width
attribute (for rectangles only) would be:
<ExpAName name='width' eltype="rect"
elns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"/>
Whereas your example above "invents" an attribute not described in the SVG
specification with the following expanded name:
<ExpAName name='width' ns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"/>
In other words, the attribute named "svg:width" isn't meaningful in SVG
terms,
and probably shouldn't have been put in the SVG namespace since the SVG
standard does not define it.
I am hoping your example represented a misunderstanding of the OpenDocument
specification, rather than a pervasive misunderstanding of XML namespaces in
OpenDocument itself[2]...
-mental
[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#ns-breakdown
Admittedly, the appendices aren't normative, but it offers the conceptual basis
for the treatment of attributes in section 5.2 of the specification, which is
normative.
[2] Or I hope that my understanding of XML namespaces is incorrect. Otherwise,
I'm concerned that if OpenDocument uses namespaces in non-conformant ways and
becomes widely adopted, it'll force weird XML processing hacks on everybody,
not to mention setting a very bad example for standards-compliance.
5:12 a.m.
mental@...3... wrote:
This has to do with the distinctness of attribute names, not their
values.
Please see Appendix A of the "Namespaces in XML" recommendation[1] (sections 2
and 3 in particular).
I think I understand.
I am hoping your example represented a misunderstanding of the
OpenDocument
specification, rather than a pervasive misunderstanding of XML namespaces in
OpenDocument itself[2]...
Very likely. I am not very knowledgeable of the subject. Please don't take
my comments as authoritative on OpenDocument, they are not. If I say
something that just doesn't make sense, then I'm probably wrong. :-)
Question: Could it be that when the tag says:
<draw:rect ... svg:width="7.62cm" ... >
That 'svg:width' refers to:
<ExpAName name='width' eltype="rect"
elns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"/>
And when it says:
<draw:ellipse ... svg:width="11.43cm" ... >
That 'svg:width' refers to:
<ExpAName name='width' eltype="ellipse"
elns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"/>
Is this possible? I don't understand XML well enough to know this myself.
Cheers,
--
Daniel Carrera | There is no urge so great as for one man to
Join OOoAuthors today! | edit another man's work.
http://www.oooauthors.org | -- Mark Twain
6:26 a.m.
Quoting Daniel Carrera <dcarrera@...674...>:
Question: Could it be that when the tag says:
<draw:rect ... svg:width="7.62cm" ... >
That 'svg:width' refers to:
<ExpAName name='width' eltype="rect"
elns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"/>
And when it says:
<draw:ellipse ... svg:width="11.43cm" ... >
That 'svg:width' refers to:
<ExpAName name='width' eltype="ellipse"
elns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"/>
Afraid not. Attributes with those expanded names are only expressable on the
<svg:rect/> and <svg:ellipse/> elements, respectively. In both examples
above,
the expanded attribute name is still:
<ExpAName name='width' ns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"/>
(which is not defined by the SVG specification anywhere)
In a nutshell:
If an attribute has a prefix, it's in a "public" namespace identified by
the
associated URI.
If an attribute doesn't have a prefix, it is (conceptually) in a "private"
namespace specific to the expanded name (local name AND namespace together) of
the element it is attached to[1].
SVG only defines a bunch of width attributes specific to their associated SVG
elements, not a "public" svg:width attribute that can be put on any element[2].
If OpenDocument has in fact invented an svg:width attribute, they're putting
non-standard extensions in the SVG namespace...
-mental
---
[1] The normative portion of the XML Namespaces recommendation only concerns
itself with "public" namespaces; section 5.2 simply notes that attributes
without prefixes have no (public) namespace.
The notion of element-specific namespaces is a concept introduced in the
appendix to explain the intended interpretation of such namespaceless
attributes.
[2] See XLink for an example of the opposite; XLink defines a bunch of "public"
attributes (e.g. xlink:href) that can be put on any element (subject to the
relevent schemas).
7:32 a.m.
Quoting mental@...3...:
If OpenDocument has in fact invented an svg:width attribute,
they're putting
non-standard extensions in the SVG namespace...
I just broke down and looked at the OpenDocument standard. Yes, they are in
fact doing this.
Unless this has been somehow okayed by the SVG WG, they are polluting the SVG
namespace.
What are the appropriate channels to raise these concerns re: OpenDocument?
-mental
7:51 a.m.
mental@...3... wrote:
I just broke down and looked at the OpenDocument standard. Yes, they
are in fact doing this.
Unless this has been somehow okayed by the SVG WG, they are polluting
the SVG namespace.
I am ignorant of this subject. I know that the OASIS TC is in contact the
other standard groups (like XForms) so presumably SVG is one of them.
What are the appropriate channels to raise these concerns re:
OpenDocument?
Go here:
http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=office
You can leave a comment (click on "Send a comment"), join the TC, or
simply just join their mailing list and participate in the discussion. The
list is office@...676... but I can't figure out how to
subscribe. I know you don't have to be a TC member to participate, as I
know of other people who aren't members and still contribute there.
It is very important to get representation in the OASIS TC from multiple
interested parties. The goal is to make a format acceptable to everyone,
and that can only be done if people participate in the discussion.
Also, right now they wer working on the next version of the format. The
one that'll meet all of the EU's requirements. And they are in the
official "request for public comentary" period until Friday. So, the best
time to raise a concern is right now. Send them a comment.
There is also a weekly conference call, general public invited, toll free
number. It is every Monday from 4:00PM to 5:00PM UTC. Here are the details
for the next one:
http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/group_public/event.php?event_id=6258&d...
Cheers,
--
Daniel Carrera | There is no urge so great as for one man to
Join OOoAuthors today! | edit another man's work.
http://www.oooauthors.org | -- Mark Twain
10:09 a.m.
Daniel Carrera wrote:
mental@...3... wrote:
>I just broke down and looked at the OpenDocument standard. Yes, they
>are in fact doing this.
>
>Unless this has been somehow okayed by the SVG WG, they are polluting
>the SVG namespace.
I am ignorant of this subject. I know that the OASIS TC is in contact the
other standard groups (like XForms) so presumably SVG is one of them.
>What are the appropriate channels to raise these concerns re:
>OpenDocument?
Go here:
http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=office
You can leave a comment (click on "Send a comment"), join the TC, or
simply just join their mailing list and participate in the discussion. The
list is office@...676... but I can't figure out how to
subscribe. I know you don't have to be a TC member to participate, as I
know of other people who aren't members and still contribute there.
It is very important to get representation in the OASIS TC from multiple
interested parties. The goal is to make a format acceptable to everyone,
and that can only be done if people participate in the discussion.
Also, right now they wer working on the next version of the format. The
one that'll meet all of the EU's requirements. And they are in the
official "request for public comentary" period until Friday. So, the best
time to raise a concern is right now. Send them a comment.
There is also a weekly conference call, general public invited, toll free
number. It is every Monday from 4:00PM to 5:00PM UTC. Here are the details
for the next one:
http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/group_public/event.php?event_id=6258&d...
Yeah, this should be brought up on the w3c www-svg list: http://www.w3.org/Mail/
Mental, since you did a bit of research on this, might you email them and tell
them of the urgency of this as well. Although, with their current speed, I don't
know how effective they are at commenting on that spec prior to FRIDAY.
Jon
--
Jon Phillips
USA PH 510.499.0894
jon@...235...
http://www.rejon.org
Inkscape (http://inkscape.org)
Open Clip Art Library (www.openclipart.org)
CVS Book (http://cvsbook.ucsd.edu)
Scale Journal (http://scale.ucsd.edu)
10:17 a.m.
Jon Phillips wrote:
Mental, since you did a bit of research on this, might you email them
and
tell them of the urgency of this as well. Although, with their current
speed, I don't know how effective they are at commenting on that spec prior
to FRIDAY.
Well, you are still allowed to comment after Friday. You can send comemnts
anytime. I've seen comments by David Wheeler from last October (well
outside the "request for public commentary" period). All I meant is that
right now is a very good time to talk to them. But the OASIS TC is always
open for public comments.
Cheers,
--
Daniel Carrera | There is no urge so great as for one man to
Join OOoAuthors today! | edit another man's work.
http://www.oooauthors.org | -- Mark Twain
10:43 a.m.
Jon Phillips wrote:
--
Jon Phillips
USA PH 510.499.0894
jon@...235...
http://www.rejon.org
Inkscape (http://inkscape.org)
Open Clip Art Library (www.openclipart.org)
CVS Book (http://cvsbook.ucsd.edu)
Scale Journal (http://scale.ucsd.edu)
Daniel Carrera wrote:
> mental@...3... wrote:
>
>
>> I just broke down and looked at the OpenDocument standard. Yes, they
>> are in fact doing this.
>>
>> Unless this has been somehow okayed by the SVG WG, they are polluting
>> the SVG namespace.
>
>
>
> I am ignorant of this subject. I know that the OASIS TC is in contact
> the other standard groups (like XForms) so presumably SVG is one of them.
>
>
>> What are the appropriate channels to raise these concerns re:
>> OpenDocument?
>
>
>
> Go here:
>
> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=office
>
> You can leave a comment (click on "Send a comment"), join the TC, or
> simply just join their mailing list and participate in the discussion.
> The list is office@...676... but I can't figure out how to
> subscribe. I know you don't have to be a TC member to participate, as
> I know of other people who aren't members and still contribute there.
>
> It is very important to get representation in the OASIS TC from
> multiple interested parties. The goal is to make a format acceptable
> to everyone, and that can only be done if people participate in the
> discussion.
>
> Also, right now they wer working on the next version of the format.
> The one that'll meet all of the EU's requirements. And they are in the
> official "request for public comentary" period until Friday. So, the
> best time to raise a concern is right now. Send them a comment.
>
> There is also a weekly conference call, general public invited, toll
> free number. It is every Monday from 4:00PM to 5:00PM UTC. Here are
> the details for the next one:
>
>
http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/group_public/event.php?event_id=6258&d...
>
>
Yeah, this should be brought up on the w3c www-svg list:
http://www.w3.org/Mail/
Mental, since you did a bit of research on this, might you email them
and tell them of the urgency of this as well. Although, with their
current speed, I don't know how effective they are at commenting on that
spec prior to FRIDAY.
I went ahead and summarized the arguements and went ahead and posted to their list.
Jon
7:50 a.m.
On Mon, Jan 31, 2005 at 12:49:14PM -0500, Daniel Carrera wrote:
Peter Moulder wrote:
> The http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050130002908154 article
> says "OpenDocument had [prior to submission to TAC] [the advantage of]
> [r]euse of existing open standards when possible (SVG, [...])."
>
> Is this correct?
>
> Later, the article says "Enhancements such as XForms, SVG, and SMiL were
> needed to meet the `custom-defined schema' requirement."
>
> Does this mean that OpenDocument supports both SVG and this strange
> OpenOffice.org Draw format? Why the duplication?
OpenDocument is not attached to OOo.
OpenDocument does not include the old OOoDraw format, but it has its own
format which is similar, and was inspired by the old format.
Does this mean that OpenDocument supports both SVG and some strange
format unique to OpenDocument? Why the duplication?
My understanding (I'm no expert) is that OpenDocument uses only
one format
for images, but they regularly copied SVG attributes, using an svg:
namespace. For example, here is a rectangle:
<draw:rect
draw:style-name="gr1" draw:text-style-name="P1"
draw:layer="layout"
svg:width="7.62cm" svg:height="5.715cm" svg:x="8.89cm"
svg:y="9.525cm">
So it includes SVG attributes and non-SVG ones.
Support for this format would be much better if it maximized its use of
SVG such that the many existing SVG applications could at least render
it. E.g. the above would become
<svg:rect
class="gr1 P1" draw:layer="layout"
width="7.62cm" height="5.715cm" x="8.89cm"
y="9.525cm" />
where only the `draw:layer' part isn't in SVG; note that this part isn't
relevant to rendering the document[*1], and isn't necessary even for
editing the document.
[*1] If OpenDocument layers can express "don't render any of the objects
in layer `foo'", then have a stylesheet rule [layer=foo] { display:none }
pjrm.
7:55 a.m.
Peter Moulder wrote:
Does this mean that OpenDocument supports both SVG and some strange
format unique to OpenDocument? Why the duplication?
I don't know enough about the format internals to answer this.
Support for this format would be much better if it maximized its use
of
SVG such that the many existing SVG applications could at least render it.
Makes sense to me. Please please please do talk to the OASIS TC. It's
important that the format have what it takes to get the support it needs.
That's the whole point of making the format.
Cheers,
--
Daniel Carrera | There is no urge so great as for one man to
Join OOoAuthors today! | edit another man's work.
http://www.oooauthors.org | -- Mark Twain
8:11 a.m.
On Mon, Jan 31, 2005 at 05:55:13PM -0500, Daniel Carrera wrote:
> Support for this format would be much better if it maximized its
use of
> SVG such that the many existing SVG applications could at least render it.
Makes sense to me. Please please please do talk to the OASIS TC. It's
important that the format have what it takes to get the support it needs.
That's the whole point of making the format.
I'm looking at the OpenDocument specification now, and seeing if I can
help in the proposal of a replacement for that part of the
specification.
Meanwhile, can someone else please get on their mailing list and discuss
this? As Daniel pointed out in reply to mental, we have only until Friday!
pjrm.
8:06 a.m.
Quoting Peter Moulder <Peter.Moulder@...38...>:
Support for this format would be much better if it maximized its use
of
SVG such that the many existing SVG applications could at least render
it. E.g. the above would become
<svg:rect
class="gr1 P1" draw:layer="layout"
width="7.62cm" height="5.715cm" x="8.89cm"
y="9.525cm" />
In principle this approach would be much better; the one caveat is that the SVG
specification flatly forbids placing any SVG elements (except for <svg>) under
a non-SVG-namespaced parent, so it would need to be SVG all the way up to an
SVG root element embedded somewhere in the document.
(Actually, as you may recall, supporting such SVG islands natively is a
long-term goal for Inkscape)
-mental
2:10 a.m.
Nicu Buculei wrote:
first: the OpenDocument format is something like 99% identical with
the
old OpenOffice.org format.
That's not true.
OASIS took the old OOo format as a starting point, but with the help of
KDE, Corel, Boeing, and many others, plus the requirements from the
European Union, they have made a vastly more powerful format. This format
is not OOo-centric.
The OpenOffice.org format specification is 570 pages.
The OpenDocument specification is 750 pages.
That's not 99% the same. OpenDocument can do a lot of things OOo can't.
i'm not sure what was Daniel idea, but i'll speculate:
OpenOffice.org
Draw files are XML and very similar with SVG, probably this is why
Daniel expect such import filter to be not to hard to develop.
I don't know enough about the subject to claim that it would be easy or
hard. I only meant to say it would be very valuable for the success of the
format.
Also, please please don't say "OpenOffice.org". OpenDocument is not an OOo
project. OOo doesn't own it, or run it. We don't *want* to run it, because
we know that this would only ensure that it won't go anywhere. KOffice and
OOo have agreed to give up their formats and switch to a new one
controlled by neither, for the purpose of giving that format a better
chance to succeed.
BTW, Daniel, you forgot to mention in the Groklaw article that
OpenOffice.org file format is supported also by Scribus:
Cool, I did not know that.
OpenDocument and the OOo format are similar. I hope that making
OpenDocument filters is not too hard for Scribus.
>difficult. But, what about OpenOffice support for the SVG file
format?
OpenOffice.org can *export* in SVG.
for import, some work (using a xslt filter) is done here:
http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=2497
Thank you for the link Nicu.
Cheers,
--
Daniel Carrera | There is no urge so great as for one man to
Join OOoAuthors today! | edit another man's work.
http://www.oooauthors.org | -- Mark Twain
2:30 a.m.
On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:10:02 -0500, Daniel Carrera
<dcarrera@...674...> wrote:
The OpenOffice.org format specification is 570 pages.
The OpenDocument specification is 750 pages.
As a professional technical writer I can tell you that it's not the
best argument :)))
However, if the specs of OASIS OpenDocument are available, I would
appreciate an URL. The only reason Scribus doesn't support importing
files in OpenDocument format is no specs available to read.
Alexandre
2:51 a.m.
Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
> The OpenOffice.org format specification is 570 pages.
> The OpenDocument specification is 750 pages.
As a professional technical writer I can tell you that it's not the
best argument :)))
:-)
At least it shows that it's not just a carbon copy. I guess the better
argument would be all the input OASIS got from Corel, KDE, several
individuals, as well as the European Comission. There have been several
changes to the format. It's not "99% the same".
However, if the specs of OASIS OpenDocument are available, I would
appreciate an URL. The only reason Scribus doesn't support importing
files in OpenDocument format is no specs available to read.
http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=office
Thank you for asking. :-)
Cheers,
--
Daniel Carrera | There is no urge so great as for one man to
Join OOoAuthors today! | edit another man's work.
http://www.oooauthors.org | -- Mark Twain
10:42 a.m.
Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:10:02 -0500, Daniel Carrera
<dcarrera@...674...> wrote:
>The OpenOffice.org format specification is 570 pages.
>The OpenDocument specification is 750 pages.
As a professional technical writer I can tell you that it's not the
best argument :)))
However, if the specs of OASIS OpenDocument are available, I would
appreciate an URL. The only reason Scribus doesn't support importing
files in OpenDocument format is no specs available to read.
http://xml.coverpages.org/ni2005-01-04-a.html
Jon
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Jon Phillips
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2:01 a.m.
Hello John,
Sorry for the delay in responding, I just got to school.
First of all, this is really exciting, but I wonder if you could
write
up more about what is needed of Inkscape for this new format.
I'm trying to learn from the failure of the old "ODA" format, to prevent
the same thing from happening to OpenDocument. The reason ODA failed was
because there was no industry adoption. Hence, I'm arguing that we need to
support OpenDocument in as many applications as we can manage. Details in
the article.
The OpenDocument format can express vector graphics. In fact, my
understanding is that it is either SVG or "essentially" SVG.
Or do you want a filter that say one has an SVG file, then one can
convert
that to an OpenDocument file. I don't think that would be difficult. But,
what about OpenOffice support for the SVG file format?
It'd be good to draw a distinction between OpenOffice.org and
OpenDocument. OOo does not control OpenDocument, it is but one
application that supports it. And if all goes well, only one of many.
OpenDocument is bigger than OOo or KDE or IBM or any of the current
supporters.
But to address your question. If "someone" could write an XSLT
transformation between OpenDocument and SVG, OOo could use that to make a
filter yes.
Cheers,
--
Daniel Carrera | There is no urge so great as for one man to
Join OOoAuthors today! | edit another man's work.
http://www.oooauthors.org | -- Mark Twain
7:30 a.m.
Hey, what happened with this discussion? Can you give me an overview of
what is happening with it and SVG?
Jon
On Mon, 2005-01-31 at 12:01 -0500, Daniel Carrera wrote:
Hello John,
Sorry for the delay in responding, I just got to school.
> First of all, this is really exciting, but I wonder if you could write
> up more about what is needed of Inkscape for this new format.
I'm trying to learn from the failure of the old "ODA" format, to prevent
the same thing from happening to OpenDocument. The reason ODA failed was
because there was no industry adoption. Hence, I'm arguing that we need to
support OpenDocument in as many applications as we can manage. Details in
the article.
The OpenDocument format can express vector graphics. In fact, my
understanding is that it is either SVG or "essentially" SVG.
> Or do you want a filter that say one has an SVG file, then one can convert
> that to an OpenDocument file. I don't think that would be difficult. But,
> what about OpenOffice support for the SVG file format?
It'd be good to draw a distinction between OpenOffice.org and
OpenDocument. OOo does not control OpenDocument, it is but one
application that supports it. And if all goes well, only one of many.
OpenDocument is bigger than OOo or KDE or IBM or any of the current
supporters.
But to address your question. If "someone" could write an XSLT
transformation between OpenDocument and SVG, OOo could use that to make a
filter yes.
Cheers,
--
Jon Phillips
USA PH 510.499.0894
jon@...235...
http://www.rejon.org
Inkscape (http://inkscape.org)
Open Clip Art Library (www.openclipart.org)
CVS Book (http://cvsbook.ucsd.edu)
Scale Journal (http://scale.ucsd.edu)
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days inactive
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inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org
31 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
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unknown＠example.com -
Alexandre Prokoudine -
Bryce Harrington -
Daniel Carrera -
Jon Phillips -
Nicu Buculei -
Peter Moulder