Re: [Inkscape-devel] Inkscape-devel Digest, Vol 55, Issue 2
Hello all:
I've not been active for a while, but I wanted to begin again. My focus is the Technical Drafting portion of Inkscape.
I've put together my thoughts in this document. I would love some feed back.
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1hSD8lW0Nv3Z3BHFXXg9vDsBI4U0CaWw1kPz...
I'm a bit selfish, as I am sick and tired of shelling out hundreds and thousands of dollars for the latest and greatest drafting software every few years. Having Inkscape be able to replace AutoCAD and Vectorworks would be the greatest gift I could every receive.
You should all know that you have made a fantastic piece of software here.
Thanks!
-Dan
www.danielkrausedesign.com 302 598 4162
On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 5:17 PM, < inkscape-devel-request@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
- Re: Notebooks in internal extensions (J.B.C.Engelen@...1578...)
- Re : Notebooks in internal extensions (Nicolas Dufour)
- Re: Re : Notebooks in internal extensions (J.B.C.Engelen@...1578...)
- Re: website (Jaros?aw Foksa)
- Re: website (Ian Caldwell)
Message: 1 Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 09:55:26 +0100 From: <J.B.C.Engelen@...1578...> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Notebooks in internal extensions To: <nicoduf@...48...>, inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Message-ID: < EEEAA170F9750D449D15AEF17CE7ED6D0345AA03@...1579...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
-----Original Message----- From: Nicolas Dufour [mailto:nicoduf@...48...] Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 15:02 To: Inkscape Devel List Subject: [Inkscape-devel] Notebooks in internal extensions
Hello,
I'm currently trying to use a 3 tabs notebook in an internal extension (a filter with some options and two color selectors), but Inkscape crashes as soon as an ext->get_param_xxx function is called from the filter's code. Everything ext->works fine if I remove the notebook from the filter UI code.
These functions use the parameters list of the extension (see extension/extension.cpp, line 427+) to return the requested value. The problem is that this list, which is also used to create the UI, only contains the first level parameters, and when using a notebook, the notebook's parameters only (but not what's inside it). ParamNotebook (extension/param/notebook.cpp, line 64+) has it's own lists (one for each page), which are also used to create the pages' UI, and contain all the parameters that should be (but currently are not) accessible from the extension's get_param functions in order to make notebooks work as expected.
Since it's not possible to add the notebook's pages parameters to the extension's ones (it would break the UI), I plan to add a new private merged list in Extension::Extension and a public Extension::add_param function to allow parameters addition from the notebook code.
Could an extension expert (Ted, Johan?) advise me?
Hi Nicolas, Perhaps I can have a look at it this evening. I think the fix would be to have the get_param functions do something like a notebookparam->get_param if the extension's parameter is a ParamNotebook. (right?)
Ciao, Johan
Message: 2 Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 10:29:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Nicolas Dufour <nicoduf@...48...> Subject: [Inkscape-devel] Re : Notebooks in internal extensions To: J.B.C.Engelen@...1578..., inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Message-ID: <958479.56148.qm@...2088...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hi Johan,
Thanks for your answer!
De : "J.B.C.Engelen@...1578..." <J.B.C.Engelen@...1578...> Perhaps I can have a look at it this evening. I think the fix would be to have the get_param functions do something like a notebookparam->get_param if the extension's parameter is a ParamNotebook. (right?)
It was my first guess, but how do you find the parameter's type from its name (there's no "get_param_type" function or public "type" var in parameter.cpp and notebook.cpp)?
Regards,
Nicolas
Message: 3 Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 14:46:45 +0100 From: <J.B.C.Engelen@...1578...> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Re : Notebooks in internal extensions To: <nicoduf@...48...>, inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Message-ID: < EEEAA170F9750D449D15AEF17CE7ED6D0345AB6C@...1579...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
-----Original Message----- From: Nicolas Dufour [mailto:nicoduf@...48...] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 11:29 To: Engelen, J.B.C. (Johan); inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Inkscape-devel] Re : Notebooks in internal extensions
Hi Johan,
Thanks for your answer!
De : "J.B.C.Engelen@...1578..." <J.B.C.Engelen@...1578...> Perhaps I can have a look at it this evening. I think
the fix would
be to have the get_param functions do something like a notebookparam->get_param if the extension's parameter is a ParamNotebook. (right?)
It was my first guess, but how do you find the parameter's type from its name (there's no "get_param_type" function or public "type" var in parameter.cpp and notebook.cpp)?
From the top of my head I can think up two solutions:
- Make a virtual get_sub_param function in Extension::Parameter that
does nothing. And override that method in Extension::ParamNotebook.
- Or (ugly) do dynamic type cast to check for param type
("dynamic_cast<>")
I'd go for the first option, and rewrite Extension::param_shared (and rename to get_param). I find the method somewhat strange. Seems better to me, to rewrite it without using recursion: (not my best piece of code, but I hope the idea is clear)
Parameter * Extension::get_param (const gchar * name) { if (name == NULL) { throw Extension::param_not_exist(); } if (this->parameters == NULL) { // the list of parameters is empty throw Extension::param_not_exist(); }
for (GSList * list = this->parameters; list != NULL; list = g_slist_next(list)) { Parameter * param = static_cast<Parameter*>(list->data); if (!strcmp(param->name(), name)) { return param; } else { Parameter * subparam = param->get_param(name); if (subparam) { return subparam; } } }
// if execution reaches here, no parameter matching 'name' was found throw Extension::param_not_exist(); }
Then for example get_param_string would become: const gchar * Extension::get_param_string (const gchar * name, const SPDocument * doc, const Inkscape::XML::Node * node) { Parameter * param;
param = get_param(name); return param->get_string(doc, node); }
Extension::Parameter::get_param(const gchar * /*name*/) { return NULL; }
Extension::ParamNotebook::get_param(const gchar * /*name*/) { here a loop similar to Extension::get_param }
Hope these pieces of (pseudo)code help, Johan
Message: 4 Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 19:28:56 +0100 From: Jaros?aw Foksa <jarek@...2504...> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] website To: inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Message-ID: <AANLkTinwrFBDQ3jv8CDGdFRp4cCjsjL0g7xu-Ows5cxD@...401...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I remember that back in 2008 we had simillar discussions - Chris was advocating Django, I wanted Drupal, there was a lot of talk but we ended up with the old site.
Development Seed (http://developmentseed.org/) was offering volunteer work on new inkscape.org site few months ago. Is this proposal still actual? They are one of the best shops you could find - perhaps it would be best to let them lead the development if they agree so.
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:38 PM, Ian Caldwell <inchosting@...400...> wrote:
hello,
It's been a good long while since I've emailed the mailing list I am a
part
of the server management involving inkscape and have been for
approximately
4+ years. I am writing you today for 2 reasons.
Our current site is terrible, I'm sorry but there is no chance of just brushing over it. I know there have been a fair number of people in the
past
2 years who have submitted website mockup ideas and we've had contests
but
no one has ever followed through. Which I'll take partial blame for it. Things are just scattered every which way I wanted to update you on the status of the Test suite, Osuosl is
currently
in the process of setting up the ability to run test suites so that we
can
test the SVG building more?efficiently. So stay tuned for more info on
this
in the near future.
Anyway back to problem 1. Here's how I think we can best solve this
problem.
We're going to break the website into different categories and duties.
UI (mockups) (*ARTIST*/PROGRAMMERS*)
Ability to make mockups of how you think the website should look. After we pick yours we will request to see the top couple in HTML/CSS
Artwork for the website (*ARTIST*)
Ability to develop / sharpen logos as well as various buttons etc as
needed
Drupal Modules (*PROGRAMMERS*)
Skills required
Knowledge of Mysql/PHP/JS and HTML Knowledge or ability to learn how drupal works
Documentation (*WRITERS*)
Skills
Moderate knowledge and ability to update and port existing content over
to
the new site.
Translation
We need people who specialize in various languages to port content once completed into the various languages.
So what's wrong with the current design? a lot, it's way too cluttered
and
disorganized not to mention you click wiki you go to a whole different navigation and sub site. That is just a pain to deal with as a user. So
if
you have skills in 1 of the above 5 categories, please contact me or the list directly and we'll assemble the a team and get this going! let me
know
what you think.... Thanks, Ian "Inc" C.
Increase Visibility of Your 3D Game App & Earn a Chance To Win $500! Tap into the largest installed PC base & get more eyes on your game by optimizing for Intel(R) Graphics Technology. Get started today with the Intel(R) Software Partner Program. Five $500 cash prizes are up for
grabs.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/intelisp-dev2dev _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Message: 5 Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 14:17:16 -0800 From: Ian Caldwell <inchosting@...400...> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] website To: Jaros?aw Foksa <jarek@...2504...> Cc: inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Message-ID: <AANLkTin7aCd=GVqPrC7On8fD7ztTyndYcsa5wr5yTdDY@...401...> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
yup, completely understandable. I have contacted the people from developmentseed that originally offered to help with the new website prior to sending this email and I have yet to hear anything back..... so I'm not real hopeful and it's time for us to make a move. So we're starting with mockups. If you have a backway to contact them and they're still willing we're more than willing... Thanks, Ian
2010/12/1 Jaros?aw Foksa <jarek@...2504...>
I remember that back in 2008 we had simillar discussions - Chris was advocating Django, I wanted Drupal, there was a lot of talk but we ended up with the old site.
Development Seed (http://developmentseed.org/) was offering volunteer work on new inkscape.org site few months ago. Is this proposal still actual? They are one of the best shops you could find - perhaps it would be best to let them lead the development if they agree so.
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:38 PM, Ian Caldwell <inchosting@...400...> wrote:
hello,
It's been a good long while since I've emailed the mailing list I am a
part
of the server management involving inkscape and have been for
approximately
4+ years. I am writing you today for 2 reasons.
Our current site is terrible, I'm sorry but there is no chance of just brushing over it. I know there have been a fair number of people in the
past
2 years who have submitted website mockup ideas and we've had contests
but
no one has ever followed through. Which I'll take partial blame for it. Things are just scattered every which way I wanted to update you on the status of the Test suite, Osuosl is
currently
in the process of setting up the ability to run test suites so that we
can
test the SVG building more efficiently. So stay tuned for more info on
this
in the near future.
Anyway back to problem 1. Here's how I think we can best solve this
problem.
We're going to break the website into different categories and duties.
UI (mockups) (*ARTIST*/PROGRAMMERS*)
Ability to make mockups of how you think the website should look. After we pick yours we will request to see the top couple in HTML/CSS
Artwork for the website (*ARTIST*)
Ability to develop / sharpen logos as well as various buttons etc as
needed
Drupal Modules (*PROGRAMMERS*)
Skills required
Knowledge of Mysql/PHP/JS and HTML Knowledge or ability to learn how drupal works
Documentation (*WRITERS*)
Skills
Moderate knowledge and ability to update and port existing content over
to
the new site.
Translation
We need people who specialize in various languages to port content once completed into the various languages.
So what's wrong with the current design? a lot, it's way too cluttered
and
disorganized not to mention you click wiki you go to a whole different navigation and sub site. That is just a pain to deal with as a user. So
if
you have skills in 1 of the above 5 categories, please contact me or
the
list directly and we'll assemble the a team and get this going! let me
know
what you think.... Thanks, Ian "Inc" C.
Increase Visibility of Your 3D Game App & Earn a Chance To Win $500! Tap into the largest installed PC base & get more eyes on your game by optimizing for Intel(R) Graphics Technology. Get started today with the Intel(R) Software Partner Program. Five $500 cash prizes are up for
grabs.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/intelisp-dev2dev _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
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grabs.
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2010/12/3 Daniel Krause <daniel.alan.krause@...400...>:
Hello all: I've not been active for a while, but I wanted to begin again. My focus is the Technical Drafting portion of Inkscape. I've put together my thoughts in this document. I would love some feed back. https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1hSD8lW0Nv3Z3BHFXXg9vDsBI4U0CaWw1kPz...
- Speed
There's some work already happening on this, and I will step it up after the Cairo branch is merged. For example we can implement proxy rendering, where the rendering of each layer above a certain complexity is cached until it changes.
Accuracy
I guess this is already addressed by numeric precision settings.
Ability to work in Scale
Not sure how this would work. Would Scale be a global setting of the document that affects the transformation between unit input and what is written into the SVG? E.g. at a scale of 1:100, you would write 100mm in the input boxes, but the SVG would contain the value 1mm.
Explore object thickness model and how it is defined
There's not much room for creativity here, SVG just defines it as a style property.
Explore creation of “Preset” tools for line weight setting per tool use
This is equivalent to brushes or named styles, which would make more sense in a drawing application, but would be useful in a CAD setting too. Then we could select by style.
Ability to snap objects to an “Accuracy”
This can already be achieved using grids.
Dimensioning and Annotation system is extremely vital, as that step can take the bulk of the drafting time.
Not sure what exactly do you have in mind, particularly with "Creation of all needed dimension types as tools" - can you explain? I guess only a few people here (and I'm not among them) are familiar with CAD tools.
Ability to pull Document Information from document into Objects.
This would be non-trivial, but could be accomplished in a manner similar to Live Path Effects.
Ability to “Lock” a document from further edits via a form of Publishing system
SVG does not natively offer this kind of capability, but we could prevent Inkscape from changing a "published" document using Inkscape-specific markup. I'm not sure whether Inkscape is the proper place for this functionality - wouldn't this be better handled by a separate document management system?
Ability to have several sheets generated using the same basic geometry
Is this similar to multi-page editing?
Regards, Krzysztof
On 12/03/2010 04:27 PM, Daniel Krause wrote:
I've put together my thoughts in this document. I would love some feed back.
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1hSD8lW0Nv3Z3BHFXXg9vDsBI4U0CaWw1kPz...
That's quite some ambition you're showing here, but you're more than welcome! There are two things I'd like to comment on:
Accuracy: that's indeed a problem, and has been for years. For example, when entering values for a line or rectangle, these values will show rounding errors after pressing enter. Any engineer would find this very annoying, see for example
https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/168002 https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/190557 https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/210145
I'm not sure if the underlying cause is the same, but what could be part of the problem is that Inkscape might apply the requested precision (as specified in the preferences, on the SVG output tab) each time a value is entered. If this is the case then I believe that this rounding should only be applied once, when saving the file. It's only useful for reducing the file size.
Dimensioning: the way the markers have been implemented currently is very clumsy for engineering purposes. Markers are "centered" at their node; this is OK for dots, but not OK for arrows which should have their tip at the node instead. But it you would move the arrow's tip to the desired position by creating a custom marker for this purpose, then you would probably still have the dimension line running all the way to the baseline. The dimension line should however probably stop short of the baseline, otherwise the arrow's tip will not be visible.
I'm a bit selfish,
No, that's what we developers call "scratching an itch"!
Regards,
Diederik
Small comment regarding markers etc.
I use Inkscape quite a lot for technical sketches (mechanical engineering). I think that a pretty good start to make Inkscape even friendlier to engineers (snapping is already absolutely fantastic) would be to include some better default styles for markers and line styles.
I agree with Johan that one quite big problem with the markers is the way that they are currently implemented, but I believe that this is how SVG defines them so I don't know how much we can actually do about it. However, I made some custom arrows and line styles, which you can see here:
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5153/mechengtemplate.png
I think they look quite OK (IMHO much better than with the default markers and line styles), and I'd be glad to share them with other people. If there's some general agreement maybe they could even be part of default markers and line styles in Inkscape.
P.S.: PGF markers are based on arrows from PGF LaTeX package so there might be some problems with the name...
Regards, Rok
On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 9:35 PM, Diederik van Lierop <mail@...1689...>wrote:
On 12/03/2010 04:27 PM, Daniel Krause wrote:
I've put together my thoughts in this document. I would love some feed back.
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1hSD8lW0Nv3Z3BHFXXg9vDsBI4U0CaWw1kPz...
That's quite some ambition you're showing here, but you're more than welcome! There are two things I'd like to comment on:
Accuracy: that's indeed a problem, and has been for years. For example, when entering values for a line or rectangle, these values will show rounding errors after pressing enter. Any engineer would find this very annoying, see for example
https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/168002 https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/190557 https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/210145
I'm not sure if the underlying cause is the same, but what could be part of the problem is that Inkscape might apply the requested precision (as specified in the preferences, on the SVG output tab) each time a value is entered. If this is the case then I believe that this rounding should only be applied once, when saving the file. It's only useful for reducing the file size.
Dimensioning: the way the markers have been implemented currently is very clumsy for engineering purposes. Markers are "centered" at their node; this is OK for dots, but not OK for arrows which should have their tip at the node instead. But it you would move the arrow's tip to the desired position by creating a custom marker for this purpose, then you would probably still have the dimension line running all the way to the baseline. The dimension line should however probably stop short of the baseline, otherwise the arrow's tip will not be visible.
I'm a bit selfish,
No, that's what we developers call "scratching an itch"!
Regards,
Diederik
Increase Visibility of Your 3D Game App & Earn a Chance To Win $500! Tap into the largest installed PC base & get more eyes on your game by optimizing for Intel(R) Graphics Technology. Get started today with the Intel(R) Software Partner Program. Five $500 cash prizes are up for grabs. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intelisp-dev2dev _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
Adding some more markers for this kind of thing would be a great idea, or at least having an alternate markers.svg that could be downloaded for the techy stuff would be great.
On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 10:50 PM, Rock Star <rockstar1707@...400...> wrote:
Small comment regarding markers etc.
I use Inkscape quite a lot for technical sketches (mechanical engineering). I think that a pretty good start to make Inkscape even friendlier to engineers (snapping is already absolutely fantastic) would be to include some better default styles for markers and line styles.
I agree with Johan that one quite big problem with the markers is the way that they are currently implemented, but I believe that this is how SVG defines them so I don't know how much we can actually do about it. However, I made some custom arrows and line styles, which you can see here:
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5153/mechengtemplate.png
I think they look quite OK (IMHO much better than with the default markers and line styles), and I'd be glad to share them with other people. If there's some general agreement maybe they could even be part of default markers and line styles in Inkscape.
P.S.: PGF markers are based on arrows from PGF LaTeX package so there might be some problems with the name...
Regards, Rok
On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 9:35 PM, Diederik van Lierop <mail@...1689...> wrote:
On 12/03/2010 04:27 PM, Daniel Krause wrote:
I've put together my thoughts in this document. I would love some feed back.
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1hSD8lW0Nv3Z3BHFXXg9vDsBI4U0CaWw1kPz...
That's quite some ambition you're showing here, but you're more than welcome! There are two things I'd like to comment on:
Accuracy: that's indeed a problem, and has been for years. For example, when entering values for a line or rectangle, these values will show rounding errors after pressing enter. Any engineer would find this very annoying, see for example
https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/168002 https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/190557 https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/210145
I'm not sure if the underlying cause is the same, but what could be part of the problem is that Inkscape might apply the requested precision (as specified in the preferences, on the SVG output tab) each time a value is entered. If this is the case then I believe that this rounding should only be applied once, when saving the file. It's only useful for reducing the file size.
Dimensioning: the way the markers have been implemented currently is very clumsy for engineering purposes. Markers are "centered" at their node; this is OK for dots, but not OK for arrows which should have their tip at the node instead. But it you would move the arrow's tip to the desired position by creating a custom marker for this purpose, then you would probably still have the dimension line running all the way to the baseline. The dimension line should however probably stop short of the baseline, otherwise the arrow's tip will not be visible.
I'm a bit selfish,
No, that's what we developers call "scratching an itch"!
Regards,
Diederik
Increase Visibility of Your 3D Game App & Earn a Chance To Win $500! Tap into the largest installed PC base & get more eyes on your game by optimizing for Intel(R) Graphics Technology. Get started today with the Intel(R) Software Partner Program. Five $500 cash prizes are up for grabs. http://p.sf.net/sfu/intelisp-dev2dev _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
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participants (5)
-
Daniel Krause -
Diederik van Lierop -
john cliff -
Krzysztof Kosiński -
Rock Star