Re: [Inkscape-docs] License for the new manual
I'm not very knowledgable about licensing or licenses. But what part of GPL prohibits any of the 4 things you listed?
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 11:23 AM To: Brynn Cc: inkscape-devel ; Maren Hachmann ; Inkscape-Docs ; Nicolas Dufour ; Sylvain Chiron Subject: Re: License for the new manual
Going to simplify a bit:
From my perspective anyone should be able to take parts of the official inkscape
manual and: 1. Modify it, update it, correct it 2. Combine it with other teaching content (rules out GPL3, GPL2, and CC-BY-SA) 3. Use it in commercial products, or part of a compilation of manuals (Rules out CC-BY-NC-SA) 4. Use it any other way they like, because it's just tutorials for using Inkscape, and anyone who wants to learn or spread the word about Inkscape should be able to do so however they like. There's literally no wrong way to do that. :)
imho we should avoid licenses that were not made for documentation entirely (GPL anything).
Thoughts about this? -C
On 2 May 2017 3:57 p.m., "brynn" <brynn@...78...> wrote: Retitled - "License for the new manual" (was "Any chance we can make some docs.....") Also copying in Sylvain, since he's been working on translation. I know there's another translator, but I can't seem to open the manual today, to look it up. So if someone knows who that is, please copy them in to this new thread.
We should sort out what license we will offer the new manual under as a first step, before starting any work. We need to reach a consensus before work can proceed.
Well, considering work has already started on the manual (the translating part), we might be a little behind the 8 ball. But I agree that we need to nail down the license asap.
Retitling this to start the discussion.
Also, according to https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/ This document is GPL v3. I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.
Well that's the same license as Inkscape. How is it too restrictive?
For me, the main point is that it needs a license that will allow anyone to edit it. We can't get stuck with an outdated manual and have no way to edit it (as a community), ever again.
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 4:22 AM To: brynn Cc: Nicolas Dufour ; Maren Hachmann ; inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
Also, according to https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/
This document is GPL v3. I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.
We should sort out what license we will offer the new manual under as a first step, before starting any work. We need to reach a consensus before work can proceed.
-C
On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 11:14 AM, C R <cajhne@...2...> wrote: Is anyone discussing a copyrighted book or manual at this point? If so, let's not. It's Copyleft or Public Domain. No proprietary books or content should be included in official Inkscape documentation. We need to be able to freely revise, edit, distribute without the legal entanglements.
-C
On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 8:28 AM, brynn <brynn@...78...> wrote: - How does version control work for booktype?
This question will probably make more sense when you make the next post you promised from a different message. I had asked why we were talking about using gitlab and all that, if we were still focused on the FLOSS translation/manual. And you said you had an idea to present that you didn't have time at that moment.
I can't really see a marriage of these 2 projects (free manual, copyrighted book of tutorials). But I'm looking forward to hearing your proposal :-)
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 1:28 PM To: Nicolas Dufour ; brynn ; C R Cc: inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
Hi Nicolas :D,
thank you!
What I would like to know (and what is now buried deep in the email stream) is:
- How does version control work for booktype? Could it be combined with a git repository, or does it use a fully independent system? (I couldn't find a direct hint, maybe it's just using the django database to keep track of changes/edits?)
- What is the source file format of booktype? Markdown? (guessing from the requirements for pip)
Regards, Maren
Am 01.05.2017 um 21:08 schrieb Nicolas Dufour:
Hi all,
I'm just back from two weeks away, and as the thread is very long now I didn't find time to read everything. Sorry if I'm off-topic.
Le Lundi 1 mai 2017 13h07, Maren Hachmann <maren@...68...> a écrit :
I only wish Nicolas or Elisa could be here to give us some more in-depth
info about their server's capabilities
Not sure what you mean. Of course the Inkscape project can use the French FM server for the translation, but note that an English version also exists (http://write.flossmanuals.net/). It would probably be easier to work on the English server directly.
and their book's licencing.
If I remember correctly, the GPLv2 was the first license that was chosen when the FM project was created about 10 years ago, and some books still use it. But the server allows users to choose a different license when creating a new book (CC, GPL, PD). As for the Inkscape book, I see it's under a GPLv3. I don't know if it can be changed (and how) or not. Elisa could probably give more details.
Regards, -- Nicolas
(this is not a direct reply to the last email by Brynn, just generally to this new licence thread)
@Brynn / CR: I think the term copyright does not mean the same as 'All rights reserved'. Copyright is just an umbrella term for all of them. Just look at the Inkscape files: (line 10) http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~inkscape.dev/inkscape/0.92.x/view/head:/src/ink...
@Brynn/CR/Martin: Yes, the Intro book at flossmanuals is licenced GPLv3. But: I have asked if the licence could be changed/amended, to include CC-By-SA (you may have missed that in the stream). Only the author hasn't answered yet. Jazzynico said he would contact her. So we are waiting for her answer, before we can decide to pursue / not pursue that road.
@everyone: FTR, I prefer CC-By-SA for a manual, too. If the Intro book cannot be licenced as CC-By-SA for some reason, then translating it would get a lower priority for me, and finding other resources for a start would rise in priority, but it's still worth being translated, because it is a good book, with a very nice tone and approach.
If someone asked me to write an Inkscape manual and to release it into PD (which is impossible, being German... we cannot cast off the moral rights, even if we want to, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_rights#In_Europe), CC0 is possible, though) I wouldn't do it. I do use that license for small artwork, and I would use it for stuff where it cannot be enforced anyway, or which is of humanitary nature. But here, no lives depend on it, and I want to make sure that people's work is credited, and that all derivatives of the manual may be shared freely. Not just /most/, but *all*.
@Brynn: (question from last email) Probably if the teaching material doesn't use the same licence. But it's still possible to use different licences for different parts, as long as you make a note of that, and don't mix them completely, as far as I know. So, I don't see an issue, rather a chance that more teaching materials might choose a good licence ;-) (I'd like to see more teachers and students use Inkscape, btw.)
Maren
Am 02.05.2017 um 20:42 schrieb brynn:
I'm not very knowledgable about licensing or licenses. But what part of GPL prohibits any of the 4 things you listed?
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 11:23 AM To: Brynn Cc: inkscape-devel ; Maren Hachmann ; Inkscape-Docs ; Nicolas Dufour ; Sylvain Chiron Subject: Re: License for the new manual
Going to simplify a bit:
From my perspective anyone should be able to take parts of the official inkscape
manual and:
- Modify it, update it, correct it
- Combine it with other teaching content (rules out GPL3, GPL2, and
CC-BY-SA) 3. Use it in commercial products, or part of a compilation of manuals (Rules out CC-BY-NC-SA) 4. Use it any other way they like, because it's just tutorials for using Inkscape, and anyone who wants to learn or spread the word about Inkscape should be able to do so however they like. There's literally no wrong way to do that. :)
imho we should avoid licenses that were not made for documentation entirely (GPL anything).
Thoughts about this? -C
On 2 May 2017 3:57 p.m., "brynn" <brynn@...78...> wrote: Retitled - "License for the new manual" (was "Any chance we can make some docs.....") Also copying in Sylvain, since he's been working on translation. I know there's another translator, but I can't seem to open the manual today, to look it up. So if someone knows who that is, please copy them in to this new thread.
We should sort out what license we will offer the new manual under as a first step, before starting any work. We need to reach a consensus before work can proceed.
Well, considering work has already started on the manual (the translating part), we might be a little behind the 8 ball. But I agree that we need to nail down the license asap.
Retitling this to start the discussion.
Also, according to https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/ This document is GPL v3. I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.
Well that's the same license as Inkscape. How is it too restrictive?
For me, the main point is that it needs a license that will allow anyone to edit it. We can't get stuck with an outdated manual and have no way to edit it (as a community), ever again.
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 4:22 AM To: brynn Cc: Nicolas Dufour ; Maren Hachmann ; inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
Also, according to https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/
This document is GPL v3. I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.
We should sort out what license we will offer the new manual under as a first step, before starting any work. We need to reach a consensus before work can proceed.
-C
On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 11:14 AM, C R <cajhne@...2...> wrote: Is anyone discussing a copyrighted book or manual at this point? If so, let's not. It's Copyleft or Public Domain. No proprietary books or content should be included in official Inkscape documentation. We need to be able to freely revise, edit, distribute without the legal entanglements.
-C
On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 8:28 AM, brynn <brynn@...78...> wrote:
- How does version control work for booktype?
This question will probably make more sense when you make the next post you promised from a different message. I had asked why we were talking about using gitlab and all that, if we were still focused on the FLOSS translation/manual. And you said you had an idea to present that you didn't have time at that moment.
I can't really see a marriage of these 2 projects (free manual, copyrighted book of tutorials). But I'm looking forward to hearing your proposal :-)
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 1:28 PM To: Nicolas Dufour ; brynn ; C R Cc: inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
Hi Nicolas :D,
thank you!
What I would like to know (and what is now buried deep in the email stream) is:
- How does version control work for booktype? Could it be combined with
a git repository, or does it use a fully independent system? (I couldn't find a direct hint, maybe it's just using the django database to keep track of changes/edits?)
- What is the source file format of booktype? Markdown? (guessing from
the requirements for pip)
Regards, Maren
Am 01.05.2017 um 21:08 schrieb Nicolas Dufour:
Hi all,
I'm just back from two weeks away, and as the thread is very long now I didn't find time to read everything. Sorry if I'm off-topic.
Le Lundi 1 mai 2017 13h07, Maren Hachmann <maren@...68...> a écrit :
I only wish Nicolas or Elisa could be here to give us some more in-depth
info about their server's capabilities
Not sure what you mean. Of course the Inkscape project can use the French FM server for the translation, but note that an English version also exists (http://write.flossmanuals.net/). It would probably be easier to work on the English server directly.
and their book's licencing.
If I remember correctly, the GPLv2 was the first license that was chosen when the FM project was created about 10 years ago, and some books still use it. But the server allows users to choose a different license when creating a new book (CC, GPL, PD). As for the Inkscape book, I see it's under a GPLv3. I don't know if it can be changed (and how) or not. Elisa could probably give more details.
Regards, -- Nicolas
With the 'good licence' I meant CC-By-SA, sorry for the confusion.
Maren
Am 02.05.2017 um 21:11 schrieb Maren Hachmann:
(this is not a direct reply to the last email by Brynn, just generally to this new licence thread)
@Brynn / CR: I think the term copyright does not mean the same as 'All rights reserved'. Copyright is just an umbrella term for all of them. Just look at the Inkscape files: (line 10) http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~inkscape.dev/inkscape/0.92.x/view/head:/src/ink...
@Brynn/CR/Martin: Yes, the Intro book at flossmanuals is licenced GPLv3. But: I have asked if the licence could be changed/amended, to include CC-By-SA (you may have missed that in the stream). Only the author hasn't answered yet. Jazzynico said he would contact her. So we are waiting for her answer, before we can decide to pursue / not pursue that road.
@everyone: FTR, I prefer CC-By-SA for a manual, too. If the Intro book cannot be licenced as CC-By-SA for some reason, then translating it would get a lower priority for me, and finding other resources for a start would rise in priority, but it's still worth being translated, because it is a good book, with a very nice tone and approach.
If someone asked me to write an Inkscape manual and to release it into PD (which is impossible, being German... we cannot cast off the moral rights, even if we want to, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_rights#In_Europe), CC0 is possible, though) I wouldn't do it. I do use that license for small artwork, and I would use it for stuff where it cannot be enforced anyway, or which is of humanitary nature. But here, no lives depend on it, and I want to make sure that people's work is credited, and that all derivatives of the manual may be shared freely. Not just /most/, but *all*.
@Brynn: (question from last email) Probably if the teaching material doesn't use the same licence. But it's still possible to use different licences for different parts, as long as you make a note of that, and don't mix them completely, as far as I know. So, I don't see an issue, rather a chance that more teaching materials might choose a good licence ;-) (I'd like to see more teachers and students use Inkscape, btw.)
Maren
Am 02.05.2017 um 20:42 schrieb brynn:
I'm not very knowledgable about licensing or licenses. But what part of GPL prohibits any of the 4 things you listed?
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 11:23 AM To: Brynn Cc: inkscape-devel ; Maren Hachmann ; Inkscape-Docs ; Nicolas Dufour ; Sylvain Chiron Subject: Re: License for the new manual
Going to simplify a bit:
From my perspective anyone should be able to take parts of the official inkscape
manual and:
- Modify it, update it, correct it
- Combine it with other teaching content (rules out GPL3, GPL2, and
CC-BY-SA) 3. Use it in commercial products, or part of a compilation of manuals (Rules out CC-BY-NC-SA) 4. Use it any other way they like, because it's just tutorials for using Inkscape, and anyone who wants to learn or spread the word about Inkscape should be able to do so however they like. There's literally no wrong way to do that. :)
imho we should avoid licenses that were not made for documentation entirely (GPL anything).
Thoughts about this? -C
On 2 May 2017 3:57 p.m., "brynn" <brynn@...78...> wrote: Retitled - "License for the new manual" (was "Any chance we can make some docs.....") Also copying in Sylvain, since he's been working on translation. I know there's another translator, but I can't seem to open the manual today, to look it up. So if someone knows who that is, please copy them in to this new thread.
We should sort out what license we will offer the new manual under as a first step, before starting any work. We need to reach a consensus before work can proceed.
Well, considering work has already started on the manual (the translating part), we might be a little behind the 8 ball. But I agree that we need to nail down the license asap.
Retitling this to start the discussion.
Also, according to https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/ This document is GPL v3. I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.
Well that's the same license as Inkscape. How is it too restrictive?
For me, the main point is that it needs a license that will allow anyone to edit it. We can't get stuck with an outdated manual and have no way to edit it (as a community), ever again.
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 4:22 AM To: brynn Cc: Nicolas Dufour ; Maren Hachmann ; inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
Also, according to https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/
This document is GPL v3. I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.
We should sort out what license we will offer the new manual under as a first step, before starting any work. We need to reach a consensus before work can proceed.
-C
On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 11:14 AM, C R <cajhne@...2...> wrote: Is anyone discussing a copyrighted book or manual at this point? If so, let's not. It's Copyleft or Public Domain. No proprietary books or content should be included in official Inkscape documentation. We need to be able to freely revise, edit, distribute without the legal entanglements.
-C
On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 8:28 AM, brynn <brynn@...78...> wrote:
- How does version control work for booktype?
This question will probably make more sense when you make the next post you promised from a different message. I had asked why we were talking about using gitlab and all that, if we were still focused on the FLOSS translation/manual. And you said you had an idea to present that you didn't have time at that moment.
I can't really see a marriage of these 2 projects (free manual, copyrighted book of tutorials). But I'm looking forward to hearing your proposal :-)
All best, brynn
-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 1:28 PM To: Nicolas Dufour ; brynn ; C R Cc: inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
Hi Nicolas :D,
thank you!
What I would like to know (and what is now buried deep in the email stream) is:
- How does version control work for booktype? Could it be combined with
a git repository, or does it use a fully independent system? (I couldn't find a direct hint, maybe it's just using the django database to keep track of changes/edits?)
- What is the source file format of booktype? Markdown? (guessing from
the requirements for pip)
Regards, Maren
Am 01.05.2017 um 21:08 schrieb Nicolas Dufour:
Hi all,
I'm just back from two weeks away, and as the thread is very long now I didn't find time to read everything. Sorry if I'm off-topic.
Le Lundi 1 mai 2017 13h07, Maren Hachmann <maren@...68...> a écrit :
I only wish Nicolas or Elisa could be here to give us some more in-depth
info about their server's capabilities
Not sure what you mean. Of course the Inkscape project can use the French FM server for the translation, but note that an English version also exists (http://write.flossmanuals.net/). It would probably be easier to work on the English server directly.
and their book's licencing.
If I remember correctly, the GPLv2 was the first license that was chosen when the FM project was created about 10 years ago, and some books still use it. But the server allows users to choose a different license when creating a new book (CC, GPL, PD). As for the Inkscape book, I see it's under a GPLv3. I don't know if it can be changed (and how) or not. Elisa could probably give more details.
Regards, -- Nicolas
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