more prominent link to the wiki?
Hi Friends, This might be just me, but I find myself needing to browse from the website to the wiki fairly often. Of course I have a Favorite/Bookmark for it. But I wonder if a link to the wiki should be easier to find on the website? Usually I open the Learn page, and use the link near the bottom of the page. Anyway, just a thought I wanted to share. And I wonder what others might think about it. Maybe that Learn page link is enough?
All best, brynn
Am 17.06.2015 um 07:31 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Friends, This might be just me, but I find myself needing to browse from the website to the wiki fairly often. Of course I have a Favorite/Bookmark for it. But I wonder if a link to the wiki should be easier to find on the website?
Hi Brynn,
depends a bit on what the Wiki is intended for. Is it for learning?
I understood it more to be a site where the devs exchange their ideas. Most of the info there is outdated, and not regularly refreshed, or only important to developers - beside the Release notes, which live there, because we didn't carry them over to the website after they were finished (and which the devs may find easier to edit in the Wiki than on the web site - at least it allows to insert SVG as images...).
What are your use cases? Which of the info in the Wiki should be accessible more easily?
Regards, Maren
Usually I open the Learn page, and use the link near the bottom ofthe page. Anyway, just a thought I wanted to share. And I wonder what others might think about it. Maybe that Learn page link is enough?
All best, brynn
Inkscape-docs mailing list Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs
Hi Maren, Yes, I understand that the intent for the wiki is more for developers. I didn't mean there should be a more prominent link for users to get to the wiki. I meant for developers, but others could use it too. I don't know. Maybe developers just don't need to go from website to wiki. Maybe it's just me. But fwiw, what I'm looking for most often is the Release Notes, Roadmap, and I often search the wiki while trying to answer support questions from forums. And for the latter, this is especially more for the new-in-0.91-features, because the manual hasn't been updated, and a lot of the new features are explained in the wiki. Once the manual is updated, I won't be in the wiki as much. (There IS a lot of user-focused stuff in the wiki! I started to work on some of it, thinking maybe it could be updated and moved to the website, like I did with the faq. But almost all of it is over my head. I did make a list of the ones that are referenced in the faq, hoping to at least get that much transferred over. But afaik, no one has updated them or moved to the website.)
Thanks, brynn
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 12:26 PM To: inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki?
Am 17.06.2015 um 07:31 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Friends, This might be just me, but I find myself needing to browse from the website to the wiki fairly often. Of course I have a Favorite/Bookmark for it. But I wonder if a link to the wiki should be easier to find on the website?
Hi Brynn,
depends a bit on what the Wiki is intended for. Is it for learning?
I understood it more to be a site where the devs exchange their ideas. Most of the info there is outdated, and not regularly refreshed, or only important to developers - beside the Release notes, which live there, because we didn't carry them over to the website after they were finished (and which the devs may find easier to edit in the Wiki than on the web site - at least it allows to insert SVG as images...).
What are your use cases? Which of the info in the Wiki should be accessible more easily?
Regards, Maren
Usually I open the Learn page, and use the link near the bottomof the page. Anyway, just a thought I wanted to share. And I wonder what others might think about it. Maybe that Learn page link is enough?
All best, brynn
Inkscape-docs mailing list Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs
Inkscape-docs mailing list Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs
Hi Brynn,
Am 19.06.2015 um 05:19 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Maren, Yes, I understand that the intent for the wiki is more for developers. I didn't mean there should be a more prominent link for users to get to the wiki. I meant for developers, but others could use it too.
- Mmh. For devs, the link isn't too hidden, I think: https://inkscape.org/en/develop/ , fourth paragraph (but also new devs should not rely on the info in the Wiki being up to date).
I usually just type 'wik' into my browser's address line, and then autocompletion kicks in...
I don't know. Maybe developers just don't need to go fromwebsite to wiki. Maybe it's just me. But fwiw, what I'm looking for most often is the Release Notes,
- I think that for the next version we could try and get the Release Notes on the website when they are finalized. They are an important part of the documentation. This will also make it easier for our translators' team (who have access to website editing, but most don't have wiki privileges) to translate them (translating Release Notes is a difficult task by itself...).
Roadmap,
- The Roadmap is being changed by devs all the time - and users should not rely on it too much - but unfortunately, they often take it by the letter, and are then disappointed... It's good info, but I'm a bit hesitant to put it on the website. Is there a place on the website which could profit from a direct link to the Roadmap? (maybe: The Next Release, FAQ, Features?)
and I often search the wiki while trying to answer support questions from forums.
- You're quite hardy :) I've internally categorized most of the Wiki pages as 'outdated' or 'describing a plan, but not necessarily the real implementation'... Could you keep track of the kind of info you are looking up, so we can maybe find a way to include the main components on the website?
And for the latter, this is especially more for the new-in-0.91-features, because the manual hasn't been updated, and a lot of the new features are explained in the wiki. Once the manual is updated, I won't be in the wiki as much.
- Tav told me he'd take care of this soon. But it's an awful lot of work (so many new features ;) ), so it may still take a while.
(There IS a lot of user-focused stuff in the wiki! I started towork on some of it, thinking maybe it could be updated and moved to the website, like I did with the faq. But almost all of it is over my head. I did make a list of the ones that are referenced in the faq, hoping to at least get that much transferred over.
- Could you share that list?
But afaik, no one
has updated them or moved to the website.)
Kind regards, Maren
Thanks, brynn
From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 12:26 PM To: inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki?
Am 17.06.2015 um 07:31 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Friends, This might be just me, but I find myself needing to browse from the website to the wiki fairly often. Of course I have a Favorite/Bookmark for it. But I wonder if a link to the wiki should be easier to find on the website?
Hi Brynn,
depends a bit on what the Wiki is intended for. Is it for learning?
I understood it more to be a site where the devs exchange their ideas. Most of the info there is outdated, and not regularly refreshed, or only important to developers - beside the Release notes, which live there, because we didn't carry them over to the website after they were finished (and which the devs may find easier to edit in the Wiki than on the web site - at least it allows to insert SVG as images...).
What are your use cases? Which of the info in the Wiki should be accessible more easily?
Regards, Maren
Usually I open the Learn page, and use the link near the bottomof the page. Anyway, just a thought I wanted to share. And I wonder what others might think about it. Maybe that Learn page link is enough?
All best, brynn
Inkscape-docs mailing list Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs
Inkscape-docs mailing list Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs
Hi Maren, Out of curiosity, when you type "wik" in you browser, how does it know to find the Inkscape wiki, and not Wikipedia, or Wikimedia, or some other program's wiki, etc? If users are looking to the Roadmap as "set in stone" then they simply need to be informed properly. For as long as I've been using Inkscape (8 years), the wiki has been a resource for both users and developers. Most of them have no idea that it's being groomed as 'developer only'. Ask Martin how many times I asked him to confirm that, Yes, the wiki will only be for developers. At least 4 or 5, as I recall. **It's a radical change, and afaik, I'm the only user who knows that.** Not only do I have a list of wiki articles that are user-related, that are linked from the FAQ (attached), I actually started to make a list of ALL wiki articles that are for users. But I started getting tripped up when I came to things I didn't understand, and wasn't sure if they were for users or not. I would be glad to start working on that again, if I could get some guidance from you, on pages where I have questions. All I could do is make a list, but that might be a starting place for someone else? (Note that when I first started working on the FAQ, I don't think you were involved yet. After I announced some of my work on the dev mailing list, it was Bryce who said that if I found info in the wiki which really should be in the documentation, to make note of it. It's possible that it's not appropriate for some of this to be documented, but that was my best understanding at the time.) I guess the FAQ would be my best idea as the best place for the Roadmap to be linked, if it should not be on the website. But it would go a long way towards preventing users from thinking it's "a done deal" by putting a simple sentence at the top of the page, to that effect. That could also be said in the faq. I was just about to add those couple of links I've been putting off adding. So shall I make the new faq item for the roadmap, while I'm at it?
- You're quite hardy :)
I've internally categorized most of the Wiki pages as 'outdated' or 'describing a plan, but not necessarily the real implementation'...
Inkscape forums can be quite competitive, as to who gets the right answer. Although it's never really verbalized, many are aware!
Where can I look to find out whether a page is outdated or describing a plan?
Could you keep track of the kind of info you are looking up, so we can maybe find a way to include the main components on the website?
I don't remember everything I've looked up, but once was info about the new Symbols dialog. And if the new manual comes out pretty soon, I won't have to go to the wiki anymore. This is a whole other subject, but I wish we had like a team to write the manual, so it wouldn't all be on 1 person's shoulders! I mean, Inkscape really should have it's own "official manual", rather than an "official" manual. And imo, the official manual should be on the website. But again, that's another subject.
Thanks, brynn
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 12:46 PM To: "Brynn" <brynn@...78...>; inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki?
Hi Brynn,
Am 19.06.2015 um 05:19 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Maren, Yes, I understand that the intent for the wiki is more for developers. I didn't mean there should be a more prominent link for users to get to the wiki. I meant for developers, but others could use it too.
- Mmh. For devs, the link isn't too hidden, I think:
https://inkscape.org/en/develop/ , fourth paragraph (but also new devs should not rely on the info in the Wiki being up to date).
I usually just type 'wik' into my browser's address line, and then autocompletion kicks in...
I don't know. Maybe developers just don't need to go fromwebsite to wiki. Maybe it's just me. But fwiw, what I'm looking for most often is the Release Notes,
- I think that for the next version we could try and get the Release
Notes on the website when they are finalized. They are an important part of the documentation. This will also make it easier for our translators' team (who have access to website editing, but most don't have wiki privileges) to translate them (translating Release Notes is a difficult task by itself...).
Roadmap,
- The Roadmap is being changed by devs all the time - and users should
not rely on it too much - but unfortunately, they often take it by the letter, and are then disappointed... It's good info, but I'm a bit hesitant to put it on the website. Is there a place on the website which could profit from a direct link to the Roadmap? (maybe: The Next Release, FAQ, Features?)
and I often search the wiki while trying to answer support questions from forums.
- You're quite hardy :)
I've internally categorized most of the Wiki pages as 'outdated' or 'describing a plan, but not necessarily the real implementation'... Could you keep track of the kind of info you are looking up, so we can maybe find a way to include the main components on the website?
And for the latter, this is especially more for the new-in-0.91-features, because the manual hasn't been updated, and a lot of the new features are explained in the wiki. Once the manual is updated, I won't be in the wiki as much.
- Tav told me he'd take care of this soon. But it's an awful lot of work
(so many new features ;) ), so it may still take a while.
(There IS a lot of user-focused stuff in the wiki! I started towork on some of it, thinking maybe it could be updated and moved to the website, like I did with the faq. But almost all of it is over my head. I did make a list of the ones that are referenced in the faq, hoping to at least get that much transferred over.
- Could you share that list?
But afaik, no one
has updated them or moved to the website.)
Kind regards, Maren
Thanks, brynn
From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 12:26 PM To: inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki?
Am 17.06.2015 um 07:31 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Friends, This might be just me, but I find myself needing to browse from the website to the wiki fairly often. Of course I have a Favorite/Bookmark for it. But I wonder if a link to the wiki should be easier to find on the website?
Hi Brynn,
depends a bit on what the Wiki is intended for. Is it for learning?
I understood it more to be a site where the devs exchange their ideas. Most of the info there is outdated, and not regularly refreshed, or only important to developers - beside the Release notes, which live there, because we didn't carry them over to the website after they were finished (and which the devs may find easier to edit in the Wiki than on the web site - at least it allows to insert SVG as images...).
What are your use cases? Which of the info in the Wiki should be accessible more easily?
Regards, Maren
Usually I open the Learn page, and use the link near the bottomof the page. Anyway, just a thought I wanted to share. And I wonder what others might think about it. Maybe that Learn page link is enough?
All best, brynn
Inkscape-docs mailing list Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs
Inkscape-docs mailing list Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs
Hi Brynn,
Am 20.06.2015 um 06:00 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Maren, Out of curiosity, when you type "wik" in you browser, how does it know to find the Inkscape wiki, and not Wikipedia, or Wikimedia, or some other program's wiki, etc?
- The browser proposes the pages I have visited most often first ;) The other pages range below in the list it shows me.
If users are looking to the Roadmap as "set in stone" then theysimply need to be informed properly. For as long as I've been using Inkscape (8 years), the wiki has been a resource for both users and developers. Most of them have no idea that it's being groomed as 'developer only'. Ask Martin how many times I asked him to confirm that, Yes, the wiki will only be for developers. At least 4 or 5, as I recall. **It's a radical change, and afaik, I'm the only user who knows that.**
- I'm a user, too ;) New people who want to download, or learn about Inkscape - at least in my google results - are guided to inkscape.org, not to wiki.inkscape.org. For the first few weeks that I was here, I didn't even know the Wiki existed (until I translated the pages that link to it). It seems this was different in a time when I haven't been part of the project, didn't know that.
Not only do I have a list of wiki articles that are user-related,that are linked from the FAQ (attached), I actually started to make a list of ALL wiki articles that are for users. But I started getting tripped up when I came to things I didn't understand, and wasn't sure if they were for users or not. I would be glad to start working on that again, if I could get some guidance from you, on pages where I have questions. All I could do is make a list, but that might be a starting place for someone else?
- Sounds like we have a volunteer ;) - seriously, I believe it's a good idea to make a list of which info should be accessible more easily to users. I can't promise we can take *everything* to the website (esp. those things that will be in the manual might not be needed there), but we should find out what could be missing, and give it proper thought.
(Note that when I first started working on the FAQ, I don't thinkyou were involved yet. After I announced some of my work on the dev mailing list, it was Bryce who said that if I found info in the wiki which really should be in the documentation, to make note of it. It's possible that it's not appropriate for some of this to be documented, but that was my best understanding at the time.) I guess the FAQ would be my best idea as the best place for the Roadmap to be linked, if it should not be on the website. But it would go a long way towards preventing users from thinking it's "a done deal" by putting a simple sentence at the top of the page, to that effect. That could also be said in the faq. I was just about to add those couple of links I've been putting off adding. So shall I make the new faq item for the roadmap, while I'm at it?
- Go ahead :) - sounds good to me.
- You're quite hardy :)
I've internally categorized most of the Wiki pages as 'outdated' or 'describing a plan, but not necessarily the real implementation'...
Inkscape forums can be quite competitive, as to who gets the right answer. Although it's never really verbalized, many are aware!
Where can I look to find out whether a page is outdated or describing a plan?
- Argh. That's difficult. You'd actually need to know the current state to *know* if the info is still correct.
So there are a few options: - Look at the top of the page. If there's a hint that the info is outdated, discard right away.
- Look at the history of the page, to see when it was last changed. This is not a really good indicator, because a few things just don't change, but it can give you a hint.
- Compare with your own knowledge about the topic. Is it different? (That's where it gets difficult... Neither you nor I nor Martin will be able to tell that for all wiki pages)
- Ask someone who might know. (This is difficult, too - we know that we don't always get answers... and that people often react annoyed to this kind of question, or say they will help and then never get around to it. This does not have priority for many.)
For much of the user-relevant contents, I guess you and I will be able to judge if it is current, with the help of suv for OS X questions. We might not be able to say this for pages about comparisons with other software, which we do not own.
About the attached list of Wiki articles:
- some of the Illustrator stuff seems no longer really necessary, as we now have the keyboard shortcut editor, which also has the option to choose the Illustrator shortcuts from the dropdown. For the other things, I'm not sure a comparison is a good topic for us... As both programs have evolved since that article was written, I'm inclined to think that much of it will be outdated. If someone made a more current comparison, this would be good as some kind of article, with version numbers and dates, so everyone can see which versions this refers to.
- Latex is important. Should definitely be part of the manual. Or we could write some kind of official article, with a date on it and a reference to the version number. Problem is, I can't contribute any info there. I also don't know who can (in the answers section, these questions usually remain unanswered). And the extensions seem to be quite buggy currently, anyway...
- Customizing: should be in the manual. Or an article about this would be nice. But there's also some work going on on this, so it may be subject to change.
- Installing: Hopelessly outdated (3+4 are the same page). AFAIK, people usually know what to do with a file they download, anyway - and all the other info is already in the FAQ. Or which info on that page should be transferred? I might have overlooked something...
Could you keep track of the kind of info you are looking up, so we can maybe find a way to include the main components on the website?
I don't remember everything I've looked up, but once was info about the new Symbols dialog. And if the new manual comes out pretty soon, I won't have to go to the wiki anymore. This is a whole other subject, but I wish we had like a team to write the manual, so it wouldn't all be on 1 person's shoulders! I mean, Inkscape really should have it's own "official manual", rather than an "official" manual. And imo, the official manual should be on the website. But again, that's another subject.
- Yes, I know. I feel like you do, but I can't start a team for this myself. We once had a team who collaboratively wrote a manual, but that effort seems to have died... I don't know why, I wasn't around.
What I know is that Tav actually does not make money with the manual, and would be delighted if some day, there were an effort made to make a real, freely usable, user manual (well, I asked him about the background of the 'official' manual being restrictively licenced, and he actually took the time to explain to me.)
The difficulty is it would have to start from the FOSS manual and it can't copy anything from Tav's guide. (when I started using Inkscape, I found Tav's guide quite difficult to understand - it was far too technical - so that might not be so bad, in the end) And of course, we'd need at least 10 people who want to help with that, who have the time for this, who have a good command of English, and who actually have the knowledge to do so. And we'd need someone who knows how to write documentation to guide them. This seems unrealistic to me, currently, judging from overall user activity on mailing lists etc. ... We should open up a 'job wall' somewhere... there a so many vacancies ;)
Kind regards, Maren
Thanks, brynn
From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 12:46 PM To: "Brynn" <brynn@...78...>; inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki?
Hi Brynn,
Am 19.06.2015 um 05:19 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Maren, Yes, I understand that the intent for the wiki is more for developers. I didn't mean there should be a more prominent link for users to get to the wiki. I meant for developers, but others could use it too.
- Mmh. For devs, the link isn't too hidden, I think:
https://inkscape.org/en/develop/ , fourth paragraph (but also new devs should not rely on the info in the Wiki being up to date).
I usually just type 'wik' into my browser's address line, and then autocompletion kicks in...
I don't know. Maybe developers just don't need to go fromwebsite to wiki. Maybe it's just me. But fwiw, what I'm looking for most often is the Release Notes,
- I think that for the next version we could try and get the Release
Notes on the website when they are finalized. They are an important part of the documentation. This will also make it easier for our translators' team (who have access to website editing, but most don't have wiki privileges) to translate them (translating Release Notes is a difficult task by itself...).
Roadmap,
- The Roadmap is being changed by devs all the time - and users should
not rely on it too much - but unfortunately, they often take it by the letter, and are then disappointed... It's good info, but I'm a bit hesitant to put it on the website. Is there a place on the website which could profit from a direct link to the Roadmap? (maybe: The Next Release, FAQ, Features?)
and I often search the wiki while trying to answer support questions from forums.
- You're quite hardy :)
I've internally categorized most of the Wiki pages as 'outdated' or 'describing a plan, but not necessarily the real implementation'... Could you keep track of the kind of info you are looking up, so we can maybe find a way to include the main components on the website?
And for the latter, this is especially more for the new-in-0.91-features, because the manual hasn't been updated, and a lot of the new features are explained in the wiki. Once the manual is updated, I won't be in the wiki as much.
- Tav told me he'd take care of this soon. But it's an awful lot of work
(so many new features ;) ), so it may still take a while.
(There IS a lot of user-focused stuff in the wiki! I started towork on some of it, thinking maybe it could be updated and moved to the website, like I did with the faq. But almost all of it is over my head. I did make a list of the ones that are referenced in the faq, hoping to at least get that much transferred over.
- Could you share that list?
But afaik, no one
has updated them or moved to the website.)
Kind regards, Maren
Thanks, brynn
From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 12:26 PM To: inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki?
Am 17.06.2015 um 07:31 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Friends, This might be just me, but I find myself needing to browse from the website to the wiki fairly often. Of course I have a Favorite/Bookmark for it. But I wonder if a link to the wiki should be easier to find on the website?
Hi Brynn,
depends a bit on what the Wiki is intended for. Is it for learning?
I understood it more to be a site where the devs exchange their ideas. Most of the info there is outdated, and not regularly refreshed, or only important to developers - beside the Release notes, which live there, because we didn't carry them over to the website after they were finished (and which the devs may find easier to edit in the Wiki than on the web site - at least it allows to insert SVG as images...).
What are your use cases? Which of the info in the Wiki should be accessible more easily?
Regards, Maren
Usually I open the Learn page, and use the link near thebottom of the page. Anyway, just a thought I wanted to share. And I wonder what others might think about it. Maybe that Learn page link is enough?
All best, brynn
Inkscape-docs mailing list Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs
Inkscape-docs mailing list Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs
Ask Martin how many times I asked him to confirm that, Yes, the wiki will only be for developers. At least 4 or 5, as I recall. **It's a radical change, and afaik, I'm the only user who knows that.**
There is a (very) long term plan. It allows us to move away from the wiki completely for all uses. But it requires our website to be more stable and capable. So for now, to make sure various groups get comfortable with writing on the website and allow for translations, I made the decision that the wiki should only be used for notes, drafting, development and all those non-user facing works.
But this isn't set in stone. The concerns are maintainability going forwards of our various resources.
I would be glad to start working on that again, if I could getsome guidance from you, on pages where I have questions. All I could do is make a list, but that might be a starting place for someone else?
- Sounds like we have a volunteer ;) - seriously, I believe it's a good
idea to make a list of which info should be accessible more easily to users. I can't promise we can take *everything* to the website (esp. those things that will be in the manual might not be needed there), but we should find out what could be missing, and give it proper thought.
Take such a job one page at a time and make sure the pages in the wiki are deleted. I forget if the wiki has tags, but it might be good to tag pages you've reviewed.
- Go ahead :) - sounds good to me.
Me too. :-)
Best Regards, Martin Owens
Hi Maren (and whoever else might be interested), For the new faq item pointing to the roadmap, I'm thinking in the first section .... Did you already do this? Or was it already done, and I didn't realize it? That's why it's showing unpublished? (banging head smiley again!) Ok if I add the caution about the flexibility of the roadmap? Re the list of wiki articles that I thought needed to be added to documentation, that are currently linked from the faq. Ok, so attached is a new document I started, with these faq items at the top, and we can add below as we work through the wiki. Briefly, it sounds like we agree that #1 and #2 would be good to be documented. #3 and #4 are no longer applicable (the faq items which linked to them aren't there anymore -- I think there was some last minute editing, or otherwise sometime since I wrote that list, that those items were either dropped or changed, and the info isn't needed). However, I think it would be awesome to have instructions for compiling, for all 3 supported systems! #5 is the Illustrator info. When I first started with Inkscape, there was some demand for this info. I used to see messages in forums from Illustrator users wishing to switch over -- at least enough messages to warrant the article or chapter in the manual. I haven't seen a message like that for probably.....2 or 3 years. I'm not sure why. It seems to me that the info should still be relevant (current info, I mean, current to both programs). But let's not get too hung up on how to accomplish this stuff. Let's just make the list for Step 1. And maybe by the time we're done, we'll be getting some ideas about Step 2. How does that sound? Shortly after I send this, I'll add the list of 10 or 15 pages from the list I told you I had started (separate from the 1 for the faq), and we can discuss whenever we have time. Does that sound ok?
All best, brynn
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 8:52 AM To: "Brynn" <brynn@...78...>; inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki?
Hi Brynn,
Am 20.06.2015 um 06:00 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Maren, Out of curiosity, when you type "wik" in you browser, how does it know to find the Inkscape wiki, and not Wikipedia, or Wikimedia, or some other program's wiki, etc?
- The browser proposes the pages I have visited most often first ;) The
other pages range below in the list it shows me.
If users are looking to the Roadmap as "set in stone" then theysimply need to be informed properly. For as long as I've been using Inkscape (8 years), the wiki has been a resource for both users and developers. Most of them have no idea that it's being groomed as 'developer only'. Ask Martin how many times I asked him to confirm that, Yes, the wiki will only be for developers. At least 4 or 5, as I recall. **It's a radical change, and afaik, I'm the only user who knows that.**
- I'm a user, too ;)
New people who want to download, or learn about Inkscape - at least in my google results - are guided to inkscape.org, not to wiki.inkscape.org. For the first few weeks that I was here, I didn't even know the Wiki existed (until I translated the pages that link to it). It seems this was different in a time when I haven't been part of the project, didn't know that.
Not only do I have a list of wiki articles that are user-related,that are linked from the FAQ (attached), I actually started to make a list of ALL wiki articles that are for users. But I started getting tripped up when I came to things I didn't understand, and wasn't sure if they were for users or not. I would be glad to start working on that again, if I could get some guidance from you, on pages where I have questions. All I could do is make a list, but that might be a starting place for someone else?
- Sounds like we have a volunteer ;) - seriously, I believe it's a good
idea to make a list of which info should be accessible more easily to users. I can't promise we can take *everything* to the website (esp. those things that will be in the manual might not be needed there), but we should find out what could be missing, and give it proper thought.
(Note that when I first started working on the FAQ, I don't thinkyou were involved yet. After I announced some of my work on the dev mailing list, it was Bryce who said that if I found info in the wiki which really should be in the documentation, to make note of it. It's possible that it's not appropriate for some of this to be documented, but that was my best understanding at the time.) I guess the FAQ would be my best idea as the best place for the Roadmap to be linked, if it should not be on the website. But it would go a long way towards preventing users from thinking it's "a done deal" by putting a simple sentence at the top of the page, to that effect. That could also be said in the faq. I was just about to add those couple of links I've been putting off adding. So shall I make the new faq item for the roadmap, while I'm at it?
- Go ahead :) - sounds good to me.
- You're quite hardy :)
I've internally categorized most of the Wiki pages as 'outdated' or 'describing a plan, but not necessarily the real implementation'...
Inkscape forums can be quite competitive, as to who gets the right answer. Although it's never really verbalized, many are aware!
Where can I look to find out whether a page is outdated or describing a plan?
- Argh. That's difficult. You'd actually need to know the current state
to *know* if the info is still correct.
So there are a few options:
- Look at the top of the page. If there's a hint that the info is
outdated, discard right away.
- Look at the history of the page, to see when it was last changed. This
is not a really good indicator, because a few things just don't change, but it can give you a hint.
- Compare with your own knowledge about the topic. Is it different?
(That's where it gets difficult... Neither you nor I nor Martin will be able to tell that for all wiki pages)
- Ask someone who might know.
(This is difficult, too - we know that we don't always get answers... and that people often react annoyed to this kind of question, or say they will help and then never get around to it. This does not have priority for many.)
For much of the user-relevant contents, I guess you and I will be able to judge if it is current, with the help of suv for OS X questions. We might not be able to say this for pages about comparisons with other software, which we do not own.
About the attached list of Wiki articles:
- some of the Illustrator stuff seems no longer really necessary, as we
now have the keyboard shortcut editor, which also has the option to choose the Illustrator shortcuts from the dropdown. For the other things, I'm not sure a comparison is a good topic for us... As both programs have evolved since that article was written, I'm inclined to think that much of it will be outdated. If someone made a more current comparison, this would be good as some kind of article, with version numbers and dates, so everyone can see which versions this refers to.
- Latex is important. Should definitely be part of the manual. Or we
could write some kind of official article, with a date on it and a reference to the version number. Problem is, I can't contribute any info there. I also don't know who can (in the answers section, these questions usually remain unanswered). And the extensions seem to be quite buggy currently, anyway...
- Customizing: should be in the manual. Or an article about this would
be nice. But there's also some work going on on this, so it may be subject to change.
- Installing: Hopelessly outdated (3+4 are the same page). AFAIK, people
usually know what to do with a file they download, anyway - and all the other info is already in the FAQ. Or which info on that page should be transferred? I might have overlooked something...
Could you keep track of the kind of info you are looking up, so we can maybe find a way to include the main components on the website?
I don't remember everything I've looked up, but once was info about the new Symbols dialog. And if the new manual comes out pretty soon, I won't have to go to the wiki anymore. This is a whole other subject, but I wish we had like a team to write the manual, so it wouldn't all be on 1 person's shoulders! I mean, Inkscape really should have it's own "official manual", rather than an "official" manual. And imo, the official manual should be on the website. But again, that's another subject.
- Yes, I know. I feel like you do, but I can't start a team for this
myself. We once had a team who collaboratively wrote a manual, but that effort seems to have died... I don't know why, I wasn't around.
What I know is that Tav actually does not make money with the manual, and would be delighted if some day, there were an effort made to make a real, freely usable, user manual (well, I asked him about the background of the 'official' manual being restrictively licenced, and he actually took the time to explain to me.)
The difficulty is it would have to start from the FOSS manual and it can't copy anything from Tav's guide. (when I started using Inkscape, I found Tav's guide quite difficult to understand - it was far too technical - so that might not be so bad, in the end) And of course, we'd need at least 10 people who want to help with that, who have the time for this, who have a good command of English, and who actually have the knowledge to do so. And we'd need someone who knows how to write documentation to guide them. This seems unrealistic to me, currently, judging from overall user activity on mailing lists etc. ... We should open up a 'job wall' somewhere... there a so many vacancies ;)
Kind regards, Maren
Thanks, brynn
From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 12:46 PM To: "Brynn" <brynn@...78...>; inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki?
Hi Brynn,
Am 19.06.2015 um 05:19 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Maren, Yes, I understand that the intent for the wiki is more for developers. I didn't mean there should be a more prominent link for users to get to the wiki. I meant for developers, but others could use it too.
- Mmh. For devs, the link isn't too hidden, I think:
https://inkscape.org/en/develop/ , fourth paragraph (but also new devs should not rely on the info in the Wiki being up to date).
I usually just type 'wik' into my browser's address line, and then autocompletion kicks in...
I don't know. Maybe developers just don't need to go fromwebsite to wiki. Maybe it's just me. But fwiw, what I'm looking for most often is the Release Notes,
- I think that for the next version we could try and get the Release
Notes on the website when they are finalized. They are an important part of the documentation. This will also make it easier for our translators' team (who have access to website editing, but most don't have wiki privileges) to translate them (translating Release Notes is a difficult task by itself...).
Roadmap,
- The Roadmap is being changed by devs all the time - and users should
not rely on it too much - but unfortunately, they often take it by the letter, and are then disappointed... It's good info, but I'm a bit hesitant to put it on the website. Is there a place on the website which could profit from a direct link to the Roadmap? (maybe: The Next Release, FAQ, Features?)
and I often search the wiki while trying to answer support questions from forums.
- You're quite hardy :)
I've internally categorized most of the Wiki pages as 'outdated' or 'describing a plan, but not necessarily the real implementation'... Could you keep track of the kind of info you are looking up, so we can maybe find a way to include the main components on the website?
And for the latter, this is especially more for the new-in-0.91-features, because the manual hasn't been updated, and a lot of the new features are explained in the wiki. Once the manual is updated, I won't be in the wiki as much.
- Tav told me he'd take care of this soon. But it's an awful lot of work
(so many new features ;) ), so it may still take a while.
(There IS a lot of user-focused stuff in the wiki! I started towork on some of it, thinking maybe it could be updated and moved to the website, like I did with the faq. But almost all of it is over my head. I did make a list of the ones that are referenced in the faq, hoping to at least get that much transferred over.
- Could you share that list?
But afaik, no one
has updated them or moved to the website.)
Kind regards, Maren
Thanks, brynn
From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 12:26 PM To: inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki?
Am 17.06.2015 um 07:31 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Friends, This might be just me, but I find myself needing to browse from the website to the wiki fairly often. Of course I have a Favorite/Bookmark for it. But I wonder if a link to the wiki should be easier to find on the website?
Hi Brynn,
depends a bit on what the Wiki is intended for. Is it for learning?
I understood it more to be a site where the devs exchange their ideas. Most of the info there is outdated, and not regularly refreshed, or only important to developers - beside the Release notes, which live there, because we didn't carry them over to the website after they were finished (and which the devs may find easier to edit in the Wiki than on the web site - at least it allows to insert SVG as images...).
What are your use cases? Which of the info in the Wiki should be accessible more easily?
Regards, Maren
Usually I open the Learn page, and use the link near thebottom of the page. Anyway, just a thought I wanted to share. And I wonder what others might think about it. Maybe that Learn page link is enough?
All best, brynn
Inkscape-docs mailing list Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs
Inkscape-docs mailing list Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs
Hi Brynn,
Am 20.06.2015 um 20:50 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Maren (and whoever else might be interested), For the new faq item pointing to the roadmap, I'm thinking in the first section .... Did you already do this? Or was it already done, and I didn't realize it? That's why it's showing unpublished? (banging head smiley again!) Ok if I add the caution about the flexibility of the roadmap?
- Right, it's already in the FAQ: https://inkscape.org/en/learn/faq/#Will_there_be_an_Inkscape_1.00?_What_woul...
Yes, please add the note about possible changes / not taking that by the letter there.
Re the list of wiki articles that I thought needed to be added todocumentation, that are currently linked from the faq. Ok, so attached is a new document I started, with these faq items at the top, and we can add below as we work through the wiki.
- Nice :)
Briefly, it sounds like we agree that #1 and #2 would be good tobe documented. #3 and #4 are no longer applicable (the faq items which linked to them aren't there anymore -- I think there was some last minute editing, or otherwise sometime since I wrote that list, that those items were either dropped or changed, and the info isn't needed).
However, I think it would be awesome to have instructions for compiling, for all 3 supported systems!
- Yes :) But those instructions (esp. the necessary libraries you need to install before you compile) change rapidly (relative to Inkscape-time units :)). I don't know if it is possible to make them so generic as to keep them current for as long as possible.
Is compiling a user topic? Or is this developer realm? For me, it's a bit in a grey zone in between, but more on the dev side. Testers would need that. Or people who want to offer Inkscape for download.
For the normal users, pre-release versions are available for download for previewing when a new release is nearing, and daily builds for Ubuntu are available all the time, too. I think ~suv is creating OS X builds regularly.
Compiling on Linux/Debian-based systems is quite generic and easy, and there's a (mostly, don't know about dependencies) current version on the Wiki: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/CompilingUbuntu
For Windows, the last update by TheAdib is from last summer: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Creating_Inkscape_distributions#Crea...
For OS X, there's a clearly outdated guide: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/CompilingMacOsX
Oh, oops - I just found that the info *is* already on the website: https://inkscape.org/en/develop/getting-started/ (could probably profit from an update, though)
You could add that to the to-do list, to a new 'Website' section, as 'needs update'.... Just like these: https://inkscape.org/en/contribute/testing/, https://inkscape.org/en/develop/debugging/ (that last one might just need a quick glance by someone who knows how it works, could still be current)
Yesterday, our translators already complained about outdated/unfinished pages... I couldn't help much with that, unfortunately, besides asking them to concentrate on the other pages... Argh...
The devs I had asked - various over time - all forgot about reviewing the page / had other priorities in the end, and I don't want to ask repeatedly... It's not my job to annoy people...
#5 is the Illustrator info. When I first started with Inkscape,there was some demand for this info. I used to see messages in forums from Illustrator users wishing to switch over -- at least enough messages to warrant the article or chapter in the manual. I haven't seen a message like that for probably.....2 or 3 years. I'm not sure why. It seems to me that the info should still be relevant (current info, I mean, current to both programs). But let's not get too hung up on how to accomplish this stuff. Let's just make the list for Step 1. And maybe by the time we're done, we'll be getting some ideas about Step 2. How does that sound?
- Reasonable, smart and good :)
Shortly after I send this, I'll add the list of 10 or 15 pagesfrom the list I told you I had started (separate from the 1 for the faq), and we can discuss whenever we have time. Does that sound ok?
- Yep.
Thank you, Brynn!
Kind regards, Maren
All best, brynn
From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 8:52 AM To: "Brynn" <brynn@...78...>; inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki?
Hi Brynn,
Am 20.06.2015 um 06:00 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Maren, Out of curiosity, when you type "wik" in you browser, how does it know to find the Inkscape wiki, and not Wikipedia, or Wikimedia, or some other program's wiki, etc?
- The browser proposes the pages I have visited most often first ;) The
other pages range below in the list it shows me.
If users are looking to the Roadmap as "set in stone" then theysimply need to be informed properly. For as long as I've been using Inkscape (8 years), the wiki has been a resource for both users and developers. Most of them have no idea that it's being groomed as 'developer only'. Ask Martin how many times I asked him to confirm that, Yes, the wiki will only be for developers. At least 4 or 5, as I recall. **It's a radical change, and afaik, I'm the only user who knows that.**
- I'm a user, too ;)
New people who want to download, or learn about Inkscape - at least in my google results - are guided to inkscape.org, not to wiki.inkscape.org. For the first few weeks that I was here, I didn't even know the Wiki existed (until I translated the pages that link to it). It seems this was different in a time when I haven't been part of the project, didn't know that.
Not only do I have a list of wiki articles that are user-related,that are linked from the FAQ (attached), I actually started to make a list of ALL wiki articles that are for users. But I started getting tripped up when I came to things I didn't understand, and wasn't sure if they were for users or not. I would be glad to start working on that again, if I could get some guidance from you, on pages where I have questions. All I could do is make a list, but that might be a starting place for someone else?
- Sounds like we have a volunteer ;) - seriously, I believe it's a good
idea to make a list of which info should be accessible more easily to users. I can't promise we can take *everything* to the website (esp. those things that will be in the manual might not be needed there), but we should find out what could be missing, and give it proper thought.
(Note that when I first started working on the FAQ, I don't thinkyou were involved yet. After I announced some of my work on the dev mailing list, it was Bryce who said that if I found info in the wiki which really should be in the documentation, to make note of it. It's possible that it's not appropriate for some of this to be documented, but that was my best understanding at the time.) I guess the FAQ would be my best idea as the best place for the Roadmap to be linked, if it should not be on the website. But it would go a long way towards preventing users from thinking it's "a done deal" by putting a simple sentence at the top of the page, to that effect. That could also be said in the faq. I was just about to add those couple of links I've been putting off adding. So shall I make the new faq item for the roadmap, while I'm at it?
- Go ahead :) - sounds good to me.
- You're quite hardy :)
I've internally categorized most of the Wiki pages as 'outdated' or 'describing a plan, but not necessarily the real implementation'...
Inkscape forums can be quite competitive, as to who gets the right answer. Although it's never really verbalized, many are aware!
Where can I look to find out whether a page is outdated or describing a plan?
- Argh. That's difficult. You'd actually need to know the current state
to *know* if the info is still correct.
So there are a few options:
- Look at the top of the page. If there's a hint that the info is
outdated, discard right away.
- Look at the history of the page, to see when it was last changed. This
is not a really good indicator, because a few things just don't change, but it can give you a hint.
- Compare with your own knowledge about the topic. Is it different?
(That's where it gets difficult... Neither you nor I nor Martin will be able to tell that for all wiki pages)
- Ask someone who might know.
(This is difficult, too - we know that we don't always get answers... and that people often react annoyed to this kind of question, or say they will help and then never get around to it. This does not have priority for many.)
For much of the user-relevant contents, I guess you and I will be able to judge if it is current, with the help of suv for OS X questions. We might not be able to say this for pages about comparisons with other software, which we do not own.
About the attached list of Wiki articles:
- some of the Illustrator stuff seems no longer really necessary, as we
now have the keyboard shortcut editor, which also has the option to choose the Illustrator shortcuts from the dropdown. For the other things, I'm not sure a comparison is a good topic for us... As both programs have evolved since that article was written, I'm inclined to think that much of it will be outdated. If someone made a more current comparison, this would be good as some kind of article, with version numbers and dates, so everyone can see which versions this refers to.
- Latex is important. Should definitely be part of the manual. Or we
could write some kind of official article, with a date on it and a reference to the version number. Problem is, I can't contribute any info there. I also don't know who can (in the answers section, these questions usually remain unanswered). And the extensions seem to be quite buggy currently, anyway...
- Customizing: should be in the manual. Or an article about this would
be nice. But there's also some work going on on this, so it may be subject to change.
- Installing: Hopelessly outdated (3+4 are the same page). AFAIK, people
usually know what to do with a file they download, anyway - and all the other info is already in the FAQ. Or which info on that page should be transferred? I might have overlooked something...
Could you keep track of the kind of info you are looking up, so we can maybe find a way to include the main components on the website?
I don't remember everything I've looked up, but once was info about the new Symbols dialog. And if the new manual comes out pretty soon, I won't have to go to the wiki anymore. This is a whole other subject, but I wish we had like a team to write the manual, so it wouldn't all be on 1 person's shoulders! I mean, Inkscape really should have it's own "official manual", rather than an "official" manual. And imo, the official manual should be on the website. But again, that's another subject.
- Yes, I know. I feel like you do, but I can't start a team for this
myself. We once had a team who collaboratively wrote a manual, but that effort seems to have died... I don't know why, I wasn't around.
What I know is that Tav actually does not make money with the manual, and would be delighted if some day, there were an effort made to make a real, freely usable, user manual (well, I asked him about the background of the 'official' manual being restrictively licenced, and he actually took the time to explain to me.)
The difficulty is it would have to start from the FOSS manual and it can't copy anything from Tav's guide. (when I started using Inkscape, I found Tav's guide quite difficult to understand - it was far too technical - so that might not be so bad, in the end) And of course, we'd need at least 10 people who want to help with that, who have the time for this, who have a good command of English, and who actually have the knowledge to do so. And we'd need someone who knows how to write documentation to guide them. This seems unrealistic to me, currently, judging from overall user activity on mailing lists etc. ... We should open up a 'job wall' somewhere... there a so many vacancies ;)
Kind regards, Maren
Thanks, brynn
From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 12:46 PM To: "Brynn" <brynn@...78...>; inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki?
Hi Brynn,
Am 19.06.2015 um 05:19 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Maren, Yes, I understand that the intent for the wiki is more for developers. I didn't mean there should be a more prominent link for users to get to the wiki. I meant for developers, but others could use it too.
- Mmh. For devs, the link isn't too hidden, I think:
https://inkscape.org/en/develop/ , fourth paragraph (but also new devs should not rely on the info in the Wiki being up to date).
I usually just type 'wik' into my browser's address line, and then autocompletion kicks in...
I don't know. Maybe developers just don't need to go fromwebsite to wiki. Maybe it's just me. But fwiw, what I'm looking for most often is the Release Notes,
- I think that for the next version we could try and get the Release
Notes on the website when they are finalized. They are an important part of the documentation. This will also make it easier for our translators' team (who have access to website editing, but most don't have wiki privileges) to translate them (translating Release Notes is a difficult task by itself...).
Roadmap,
- The Roadmap is being changed by devs all the time - and users should
not rely on it too much - but unfortunately, they often take it by the letter, and are then disappointed... It's good info, but I'm a bit hesitant to put it on the website. Is there a place on the website which could profit from a direct link to the Roadmap? (maybe: The Next Release, FAQ, Features?)
and I often search the wiki while trying to answer support questions from forums.
- You're quite hardy :)
I've internally categorized most of the Wiki pages as 'outdated' or 'describing a plan, but not necessarily the real implementation'... Could you keep track of the kind of info you are looking up, so we can maybe find a way to include the main components on the website?
And for the latter, this is especially more for the new-in-0.91-features, because the manual hasn't been updated, and a lot of the new features are explained in the wiki. Once the manual is updated, I won't be in the wiki as much.
- Tav told me he'd take care of this soon. But it's an awful lot of
work (so many new features ;) ), so it may still take a while.
(There IS a lot of user-focused stuff in the wiki! Istarted to work on some of it, thinking maybe it could be updated and moved to the website, like I did with the faq. But almost all of it is over my head. I did make a list of the ones that are referenced in the faq, hoping to at least get that much transferred over.
- Could you share that list?
But afaik, no one
has updated them or moved to the website.)
Kind regards, Maren
Thanks, brynn
From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 12:26 PM To: inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki?
Am 17.06.2015 um 07:31 schrieb Brynn: > Hi Friends, > This might be just me, but I find myself needing to browse > from > the > website to the wiki fairly often. Of course I have a > Favorite/Bookmark > for > it. But I wonder if a link to the wiki should be easier to find on > the > website?
Hi Brynn,
depends a bit on what the Wiki is intended for. Is it for learning?
I understood it more to be a site where the devs exchange their ideas. Most of the info there is outdated, and not regularly refreshed, or only important to developers - beside the Release notes, which live there, because we didn't carry them over to the website after they were finished (and which the devs may find easier to edit in the Wiki than on the web site - at least it allows to insert SVG as images...).
What are your use cases? Which of the info in the Wiki should be accessible more easily?
Regards, Maren
> Usually I open the Learn page, and use the link near the > bottom > of > the page. Anyway, just a thought I wanted to share. And I wonder > what > others might think about it. Maybe that Learn page link is enough? > > All best, > brynn > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Inkscape-docs mailing list > Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs >
Inkscape-docs mailing list Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs
Hi Maren,
Is compiling a user topic? Or is this developer realm? For me, it's a bit in a grey zone in between, but more on the dev side. Testers would need that. Or people who want to offer Inkscape for download.
Perhaps you would be surprised how many Inkscape users like to use the development build? Witness this old topic from IF (circa 2008): http://www.inkscapeforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1289 I don't think snapshots are still available, although I could be wrong.
And this quite new topic (couple of weeks ago): http://www.inkscapeforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=18869
There have been many times I would like to use a development version for short term projects, although not for my regular use, except I don't know how to compile. (I found the development version of Ponyscape in a zip file, and I do play with that now and then. But I don't otherwise keep up with Ponyscape development.)
For those Inkscape users who already know how to compile, they do use dev versions. As far as I can tell, when someone knows how to compile, they prefer the development version. I could name you 5 users right now, using a dev version, (or who would, if available for Windows) and given some time could list 10 or more.
You could add that to the to-do list, to a new 'Website' section, as 'needs update'.... Just like these: https://inkscape.org/en/contribute/testing/, https://inkscape.org/en/develop/debugging/ (that last one might just need a quick glance by someone who knows how it works, could still be current)
You lost me there. To-do list, new "Website" section, "needs update"?? If I understand what you're saying, I might be about to post a new message on a subject related to "to-do" list.
All best, brynn
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...> Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 12:03 PM To: "Brynn" <brynn@...78...>; inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki?
Hi Brynn,
Am 20.06.2015 um 20:50 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Maren (and whoever else might be interested), For the new faq item pointing to the roadmap, I'm thinking in the first section .... Did you already do this? Or was it already done, and I didn't realize it? That's why it's showing unpublished? (banging head smiley again!) Ok if I add the caution about the flexibility of the roadmap?
- Right, it's already in the FAQ:
https://inkscape.org/en/learn/faq/#Will_there_be_an_Inkscape_1.00?_What_woul...
Yes, please add the note about possible changes / not taking that by the letter there.
Re the list of wiki articles that I thought needed to be added todocumentation, that are currently linked from the faq. Ok, so attached is a new document I started, with these faq items at the top, and we can add below as we work through the wiki.
- Nice :)
Briefly, it sounds like we agree that #1 and #2 would be good tobe documented. #3 and #4 are no longer applicable (the faq items which linked to them aren't there anymore -- I think there was some last minute editing, or otherwise sometime since I wrote that list, that those items were either dropped or changed, and the info isn't needed).
However, I think it would be awesome to have instructions for compiling, for all 3 supported systems!
- Yes :) But those instructions (esp. the necessary libraries you need
to install before you compile) change rapidly (relative to Inkscape-time units :)). I don't know if it is possible to make them so generic as to keep them current for as long as possible.
Is compiling a user topic? Or is this developer realm? For me, it's a bit in a grey zone in between, but more on the dev side. Testers would need that. Or people who want to offer Inkscape for download.
For the normal users, pre-release versions are available for download for previewing when a new release is nearing, and daily builds for Ubuntu are available all the time, too. I think ~suv is creating OS X builds regularly.
Compiling on Linux/Debian-based systems is quite generic and easy, and there's a (mostly, don't know about dependencies) current version on the Wiki: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/CompilingUbuntu
For Windows, the last update by TheAdib is from last summer: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Creating_Inkscape_distributions#Crea...
For OS X, there's a clearly outdated guide: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/CompilingMacOsX
Oh, oops - I just found that the info *is* already on the website: https://inkscape.org/en/develop/getting-started/ (could probably profit from an update, though)
You could add that to the to-do list, to a new 'Website' section, as 'needs update'.... Just like these: https://inkscape.org/en/contribute/testing/, https://inkscape.org/en/develop/debugging/ (that last one might just need a quick glance by someone who knows how it works, could still be current)
Yesterday, our translators already complained about outdated/unfinished pages... I couldn't help much with that, unfortunately, besides asking them to concentrate on the other pages... Argh...
The devs I had asked - various over time - all forgot about reviewing the page / had other priorities in the end, and I don't want to ask repeatedly... It's not my job to annoy people...
#5 is the Illustrator info. When I first started with Inkscape,there was some demand for this info. I used to see messages in forums from Illustrator users wishing to switch over -- at least enough messages to warrant the article or chapter in the manual. I haven't seen a message like that for probably.....2 or 3 years. I'm not sure why. It seems to me that the info should still be relevant (current info, I mean, current to both programs). But let's not get too hung up on how to accomplish this stuff. Let's just make the list for Step 1. And maybe by the time we're done, we'll be getting some ideas about Step 2. How does that sound?
- Reasonable, smart and good :)
Shortly after I send this, I'll add the list of 10 or 15 pagesfrom the list I told you I had started (separate from the 1 for the faq), and we can discuss whenever we have time. Does that sound ok?
- Yep.
Thank you, Brynn!
Kind regards, Maren
All best, brynn
From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 8:52 AM To: "Brynn" <brynn@...78...>; inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki?
Hi Brynn,
Am 20.06.2015 um 06:00 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Maren, Out of curiosity, when you type "wik" in you browser, how does it know to find the Inkscape wiki, and not Wikipedia, or Wikimedia, or some other program's wiki, etc?
- The browser proposes the pages I have visited most often first ;) The
other pages range below in the list it shows me.
If users are looking to the Roadmap as "set in stone" then theysimply need to be informed properly. For as long as I've been using Inkscape (8 years), the wiki has been a resource for both users and developers. Most of them have no idea that it's being groomed as 'developer only'. Ask Martin how many times I asked him to confirm that, Yes, the wiki will only be for developers. At least 4 or 5, as I recall. **It's a radical change, and afaik, I'm the only user who knows that.**
- I'm a user, too ;)
New people who want to download, or learn about Inkscape - at least in my google results - are guided to inkscape.org, not to wiki.inkscape.org. For the first few weeks that I was here, I didn't even know the Wiki existed (until I translated the pages that link to it). It seems this was different in a time when I haven't been part of the project, didn't know that.
Not only do I have a list of wiki articles that areuser-related, that are linked from the FAQ (attached), I actually started to make a list of ALL wiki articles that are for users. But I started getting tripped up when I came to things I didn't understand, and wasn't sure if they were for users or not. I would be glad to start working on that again, if I could get some guidance from you, on pages where I have questions. All I could do is make a list, but that might be a starting place for someone else?
- Sounds like we have a volunteer ;) - seriously, I believe it's a good
idea to make a list of which info should be accessible more easily to users. I can't promise we can take *everything* to the website (esp. those things that will be in the manual might not be needed there), but we should find out what could be missing, and give it proper thought.
(Note that when I first started working on the FAQ, I don'tthink you were involved yet. After I announced some of my work on the dev mailing list, it was Bryce who said that if I found info in the wiki which really should be in the documentation, to make note of it. It's possible that it's not appropriate for some of this to be documented, but that was my best understanding at the time.) I guess the FAQ would be my best idea as the best place for the Roadmap to be linked, if it should not be on the website. But it would go a long way towards preventing users from thinking it's "a done deal" by putting a simple sentence at the top of the page, to that effect. That could also be said in the faq. I was just about to add those couple of links I've been putting off adding. So shall I make the new faq item for the roadmap, while I'm at it?
- Go ahead :) - sounds good to me.
- You're quite hardy :)
I've internally categorized most of the Wiki pages as 'outdated' or 'describing a plan, but not necessarily the real implementation'...
Inkscape forums can be quite competitive, as to who gets the right answer. Although it's never really verbalized, many are aware!
Where can I look to find out whether a page is outdated or describing a plan?
- Argh. That's difficult. You'd actually need to know the current state
to *know* if the info is still correct.
So there are a few options:
- Look at the top of the page. If there's a hint that the info is
outdated, discard right away.
- Look at the history of the page, to see when it was last changed. This
is not a really good indicator, because a few things just don't change, but it can give you a hint.
- Compare with your own knowledge about the topic. Is it different?
(That's where it gets difficult... Neither you nor I nor Martin will be able to tell that for all wiki pages)
- Ask someone who might know.
(This is difficult, too - we know that we don't always get answers... and that people often react annoyed to this kind of question, or say they will help and then never get around to it. This does not have priority for many.)
For much of the user-relevant contents, I guess you and I will be able to judge if it is current, with the help of suv for OS X questions. We might not be able to say this for pages about comparisons with other software, which we do not own.
About the attached list of Wiki articles:
- some of the Illustrator stuff seems no longer really necessary, as we
now have the keyboard shortcut editor, which also has the option to choose the Illustrator shortcuts from the dropdown. For the other things, I'm not sure a comparison is a good topic for us... As both programs have evolved since that article was written, I'm inclined to think that much of it will be outdated. If someone made a more current comparison, this would be good as some kind of article, with version numbers and dates, so everyone can see which versions this refers to.
- Latex is important. Should definitely be part of the manual. Or we
could write some kind of official article, with a date on it and a reference to the version number. Problem is, I can't contribute any info there. I also don't know who can (in the answers section, these questions usually remain unanswered). And the extensions seem to be quite buggy currently, anyway...
- Customizing: should be in the manual. Or an article about this would
be nice. But there's also some work going on on this, so it may be subject to change.
- Installing: Hopelessly outdated (3+4 are the same page). AFAIK, people
usually know what to do with a file they download, anyway - and all the other info is already in the FAQ. Or which info on that page should be transferred? I might have overlooked something...
Could you keep track of the kind of info you are looking up, so we can maybe find a way to include the main components on the website?
I don't remember everything I've looked up, but once was info about the new Symbols dialog. And if the new manual comes out pretty soon, I won't have to go to the wiki anymore. This is a whole other subject, but I wish we had like a team to write the manual, so it wouldn't all be on 1 person's shoulders! I mean, Inkscape really should have it's own "official manual", rather than an "official" manual. And imo, the official manual should be on the website. But again, that's another subject.
- Yes, I know. I feel like you do, but I can't start a team for this
myself. We once had a team who collaboratively wrote a manual, but that effort seems to have died... I don't know why, I wasn't around.
What I know is that Tav actually does not make money with the manual, and would be delighted if some day, there were an effort made to make a real, freely usable, user manual (well, I asked him about the background of the 'official' manual being restrictively licenced, and he actually took the time to explain to me.)
The difficulty is it would have to start from the FOSS manual and it can't copy anything from Tav's guide. (when I started using Inkscape, I found Tav's guide quite difficult to understand - it was far too technical - so that might not be so bad, in the end) And of course, we'd need at least 10 people who want to help with that, who have the time for this, who have a good command of English, and who actually have the knowledge to do so. And we'd need someone who knows how to write documentation to guide them. This seems unrealistic to me, currently, judging from overall user activity on mailing lists etc. ... We should open up a 'job wall' somewhere... there a so many vacancies ;)
Kind regards, Maren
Thanks, brynn
2nd reply to:
Is compiling a user topic?
And another new message today: http://www.inkscapeforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=17957&p=72270#p722... (mining up a slightly older topic, but still a current request)
:-D brynn
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...> Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 12:03 PM To: "Brynn" <brynn@...78...>; inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki?
Hi Brynn,
Am 20.06.2015 um 20:50 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Maren (and whoever else might be interested), For the new faq item pointing to the roadmap, I'm thinking in the first section .... Did you already do this? Or was it already done, and I didn't realize it? That's why it's showing unpublished? (banging head smiley again!) Ok if I add the caution about the flexibility of the roadmap?
- Right, it's already in the FAQ:
https://inkscape.org/en/learn/faq/#Will_there_be_an_Inkscape_1.00?_What_woul...
Yes, please add the note about possible changes / not taking that by the letter there.
Re the list of wiki articles that I thought needed to be added todocumentation, that are currently linked from the faq. Ok, so attached is a new document I started, with these faq items at the top, and we can add below as we work through the wiki.
- Nice :)
Briefly, it sounds like we agree that #1 and #2 would be good tobe documented. #3 and #4 are no longer applicable (the faq items which linked to them aren't there anymore -- I think there was some last minute editing, or otherwise sometime since I wrote that list, that those items were either dropped or changed, and the info isn't needed).
However, I think it would be awesome to have instructions for compiling, for all 3 supported systems!
- Yes :) But those instructions (esp. the necessary libraries you need
to install before you compile) change rapidly (relative to Inkscape-time units :)). I don't know if it is possible to make them so generic as to keep them current for as long as possible.
Is compiling a user topic? Or is this developer realm? For me, it's a bit in a grey zone in between, but more on the dev side. Testers would need that. Or people who want to offer Inkscape for download.
For the normal users, pre-release versions are available for download for previewing when a new release is nearing, and daily builds for Ubuntu are available all the time, too. I think ~suv is creating OS X builds regularly.
Compiling on Linux/Debian-based systems is quite generic and easy, and there's a (mostly, don't know about dependencies) current version on the Wiki: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/CompilingUbuntu
For Windows, the last update by TheAdib is from last summer: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Creating_Inkscape_distributions#Crea...
For OS X, there's a clearly outdated guide: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/CompilingMacOsX
Oh, oops - I just found that the info *is* already on the website: https://inkscape.org/en/develop/getting-started/ (could probably profit from an update, though)
You could add that to the to-do list, to a new 'Website' section, as 'needs update'.... Just like these: https://inkscape.org/en/contribute/testing/, https://inkscape.org/en/develop/debugging/ (that last one might just need a quick glance by someone who knows how it works, could still be current)
Yesterday, our translators already complained about outdated/unfinished pages... I couldn't help much with that, unfortunately, besides asking them to concentrate on the other pages... Argh...
The devs I had asked - various over time - all forgot about reviewing the page / had other priorities in the end, and I don't want to ask repeatedly... It's not my job to annoy people...
#5 is the Illustrator info. When I first started with Inkscape,there was some demand for this info. I used to see messages in forums from Illustrator users wishing to switch over -- at least enough messages to warrant the article or chapter in the manual. I haven't seen a message like that for probably.....2 or 3 years. I'm not sure why. It seems to me that the info should still be relevant (current info, I mean, current to both programs). But let's not get too hung up on how to accomplish this stuff. Let's just make the list for Step 1. And maybe by the time we're done, we'll be getting some ideas about Step 2. How does that sound?
- Reasonable, smart and good :)
Shortly after I send this, I'll add the list of 10 or 15 pagesfrom the list I told you I had started (separate from the 1 for the faq), and we can discuss whenever we have time. Does that sound ok?
- Yep.
Thank you, Brynn!
Kind regards, Maren
All best, brynn
From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 8:52 AM To: "Brynn" <brynn@...78...>; inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki?
Hi Brynn,
Am 20.06.2015 um 06:00 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Maren, Out of curiosity, when you type "wik" in you browser, how does it know to find the Inkscape wiki, and not Wikipedia, or Wikimedia, or some other program's wiki, etc?
- The browser proposes the pages I have visited most often first ;) The
other pages range below in the list it shows me.
If users are looking to the Roadmap as "set in stone" then theysimply need to be informed properly. For as long as I've been using Inkscape (8 years), the wiki has been a resource for both users and developers. Most of them have no idea that it's being groomed as 'developer only'. Ask Martin how many times I asked him to confirm that, Yes, the wiki will only be for developers. At least 4 or 5, as I recall. **It's a radical change, and afaik, I'm the only user who knows that.**
- I'm a user, too ;)
New people who want to download, or learn about Inkscape - at least in my google results - are guided to inkscape.org, not to wiki.inkscape.org. For the first few weeks that I was here, I didn't even know the Wiki existed (until I translated the pages that link to it). It seems this was different in a time when I haven't been part of the project, didn't know that.
Not only do I have a list of wiki articles that areuser-related, that are linked from the FAQ (attached), I actually started to make a list of ALL wiki articles that are for users. But I started getting tripped up when I came to things I didn't understand, and wasn't sure if they were for users or not. I would be glad to start working on that again, if I could get some guidance from you, on pages where I have questions. All I could do is make a list, but that might be a starting place for someone else?
- Sounds like we have a volunteer ;) - seriously, I believe it's a good
idea to make a list of which info should be accessible more easily to users. I can't promise we can take *everything* to the website (esp. those things that will be in the manual might not be needed there), but we should find out what could be missing, and give it proper thought.
(Note that when I first started working on the FAQ, I don'tthink you were involved yet. After I announced some of my work on the dev mailing list, it was Bryce who said that if I found info in the wiki which really should be in the documentation, to make note of it. It's possible that it's not appropriate for some of this to be documented, but that was my best understanding at the time.) I guess the FAQ would be my best idea as the best place for the Roadmap to be linked, if it should not be on the website. But it would go a long way towards preventing users from thinking it's "a done deal" by putting a simple sentence at the top of the page, to that effect. That could also be said in the faq. I was just about to add those couple of links I've been putting off adding. So shall I make the new faq item for the roadmap, while I'm at it?
- Go ahead :) - sounds good to me.
- You're quite hardy :)
I've internally categorized most of the Wiki pages as 'outdated' or 'describing a plan, but not necessarily the real implementation'...
Inkscape forums can be quite competitive, as to who gets the right answer. Although it's never really verbalized, many are aware!
Where can I look to find out whether a page is outdated or describing a plan?
- Argh. That's difficult. You'd actually need to know the current state
to *know* if the info is still correct.
So there are a few options:
- Look at the top of the page. If there's a hint that the info is
outdated, discard right away.
- Look at the history of the page, to see when it was last changed. This
is not a really good indicator, because a few things just don't change, but it can give you a hint.
- Compare with your own knowledge about the topic. Is it different?
(That's where it gets difficult... Neither you nor I nor Martin will be able to tell that for all wiki pages)
- Ask someone who might know.
(This is difficult, too - we know that we don't always get answers... and that people often react annoyed to this kind of question, or say they will help and then never get around to it. This does not have priority for many.)
For much of the user-relevant contents, I guess you and I will be able to judge if it is current, with the help of suv for OS X questions. We might not be able to say this for pages about comparisons with other software, which we do not own.
About the attached list of Wiki articles:
- some of the Illustrator stuff seems no longer really necessary, as we
now have the keyboard shortcut editor, which also has the option to choose the Illustrator shortcuts from the dropdown. For the other things, I'm not sure a comparison is a good topic for us... As both programs have evolved since that article was written, I'm inclined to think that much of it will be outdated. If someone made a more current comparison, this would be good as some kind of article, with version numbers and dates, so everyone can see which versions this refers to.
- Latex is important. Should definitely be part of the manual. Or we
could write some kind of official article, with a date on it and a reference to the version number. Problem is, I can't contribute any info there. I also don't know who can (in the answers section, these questions usually remain unanswered). And the extensions seem to be quite buggy currently, anyway...
- Customizing: should be in the manual. Or an article about this would
be nice. But there's also some work going on on this, so it may be subject to change.
- Installing: Hopelessly outdated (3+4 are the same page). AFAIK, people
usually know what to do with a file they download, anyway - and all the other info is already in the FAQ. Or which info on that page should be transferred? I might have overlooked something...
Could you keep track of the kind of info you are looking up, so we can maybe find a way to include the main components on the website?
I don't remember everything I've looked up, but once was info about the new Symbols dialog. And if the new manual comes out pretty soon, I won't have to go to the wiki anymore. This is a whole other subject, but I wish we had like a team to write the manual, so it wouldn't all be on 1 person's shoulders! I mean, Inkscape really should have it's own "official manual", rather than an "official" manual. And imo, the official manual should be on the website. But again, that's another subject.
- Yes, I know. I feel like you do, but I can't start a team for this
myself. We once had a team who collaboratively wrote a manual, but that effort seems to have died... I don't know why, I wasn't around.
What I know is that Tav actually does not make money with the manual, and would be delighted if some day, there were an effort made to make a real, freely usable, user manual (well, I asked him about the background of the 'official' manual being restrictively licenced, and he actually took the time to explain to me.)
The difficulty is it would have to start from the FOSS manual and it can't copy anything from Tav's guide. (when I started using Inkscape, I found Tav's guide quite difficult to understand - it was far too technical - so that might not be so bad, in the end) And of course, we'd need at least 10 people who want to help with that, who have the time for this, who have a good command of English, and who actually have the knowledge to do so. And we'd need someone who knows how to write documentation to guide them. This seems unrealistic to me, currently, judging from overall user activity on mailing lists etc. ... We should open up a 'job wall' somewhere... there a so many vacancies ;)
Kind regards, Maren
Thanks, brynn
From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 12:46 PM To: "Brynn" <brynn@...78...>; inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki?
Hi Brynn,
Am 19.06.2015 um 05:19 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Maren, Yes, I understand that the intent for the wiki is more for developers. I didn't mean there should be a more prominent link for users to get to the wiki. I meant for developers, but others could use it too.
- Mmh. For devs, the link isn't too hidden, I think:
https://inkscape.org/en/develop/ , fourth paragraph (but also new devs should not rely on the info in the Wiki being up to date).
I usually just type 'wik' into my browser's address line, and then autocompletion kicks in...
I don't know. Maybe developers just don't need to go fromwebsite to wiki. Maybe it's just me. But fwiw, what I'm looking for most often is the Release Notes,
- I think that for the next version we could try and get the Release
Notes on the website when they are finalized. They are an important part of the documentation. This will also make it easier for our translators' team (who have access to website editing, but most don't have wiki privileges) to translate them (translating Release Notes is a difficult task by itself...).
Roadmap,
- The Roadmap is being changed by devs all the time - and users should
not rely on it too much - but unfortunately, they often take it by the letter, and are then disappointed... It's good info, but I'm a bit hesitant to put it on the website. Is there a place on the website which could profit from a direct link to the Roadmap? (maybe: The Next Release, FAQ, Features?)
and I often search the wiki while trying to answer support questions from forums.
- You're quite hardy :)
I've internally categorized most of the Wiki pages as 'outdated' or 'describing a plan, but not necessarily the real implementation'... Could you keep track of the kind of info you are looking up, so we can maybe find a way to include the main components on the website?
And for the latter, this is especially more for the new-in-0.91-features, because the manual hasn't been updated, and a lot of the new features are explained in the wiki. Once the manual is updated, I won't be in the wiki as much.
- Tav told me he'd take care of this soon. But it's an awful lot of
work (so many new features ;) ), so it may still take a while.
(There IS a lot of user-focused stuff in the wiki! Istarted to work on some of it, thinking maybe it could be updated and moved to the website, like I did with the faq. But almost all of it is over my head. I did make a list of the ones that are referenced in the faq, hoping to at least get that much transferred over.
- Could you share that list?
But afaik, no one
has updated them or moved to the website.)
Kind regards, Maren
Thanks, brynn
From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 12:26 PM To: inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki?
> Am 17.06.2015 um 07:31 schrieb Brynn: >> Hi Friends, >> This might be just me, but I find myself needing to browse >> from >> the >> website to the wiki fairly often. Of course I have a >> Favorite/Bookmark >> for >> it. But I wonder if a link to the wiki should be easier to find on >> the >> website? > > Hi Brynn, > > depends a bit on what the Wiki is intended for. > Is it for learning? > > I understood it more to be a site where the devs exchange their > ideas. > Most of the info there is outdated, and not regularly refreshed, or > only > important to developers - beside the Release notes, which live > there, > because we didn't carry them over to the website after they were > finished (and which the devs may find easier to edit in the Wiki > than on > the web site - at least it allows to insert SVG as images...). > > What are your use cases? > Which of the info in the Wiki should be accessible more easily? > > Regards, > Maren > >> Usually I open the Learn page, and use the link near the >> bottom >> of >> the page. Anyway, just a thought I wanted to share. And I wonder >> what >> others might think about it. Maybe that Learn page link is enough? >> >> All best, >> brynn >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Inkscape-docs mailing list >> Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Inkscape-docs mailing list > Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs
Am 22.06.2015 um 15:44 schrieb Brynn:
2nd reply to:
Is compiling a user topic?
And another new message today: http://www.inkscapeforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=17957&p=72270#p722... (mining up a slightly older topic, but still a current request)
Hi Brynn,
then just add a note that we need to update the existing page that describes how to compile on different systems at https://inkscape.org/en/develop/getting-started/ to the list of things that need to be updated - probably it only needs a description how to find and get all dependencies, the rest doesn't look so bad to me. (with 'to-do list' I was referring to that document you sent around).
Or add it to the new job-wall page right away, whichever you prefer. When that 'getting started' page has been updated, we could add an FAQ item to link to the instructions, for users who search for them.
I'm one of those users who prefer stability over new features, btw. ;) - although I feel perfectly able to compile Inkscape, if necessary. But it's also a lot easier on Linux than on Windows, I guess - all tools one might need are just a short command away. And I wouldn't even need to compile, because of the ppa (which contains regular builds of the dev version for Ubuntu(-derived) systems).
Regards, Maren
:-D brynn
From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...> Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2015 12:03 PM To: "Brynn" <brynn@...78...>; inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki?
Hi Brynn,
Am 20.06.2015 um 20:50 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Maren (and whoever else might be interested), For the new faq item pointing to the roadmap, I'm thinking in the first section .... Did you already do this? Or was it already done, and I didn't realize it? That's why it's showing unpublished? (banging head smiley again!) Ok if I add the caution about the flexibility of the roadmap?
- Right, it's already in the FAQ:
https://inkscape.org/en/learn/faq/#Will_there_be_an_Inkscape_1.00?_What_woul...
Yes, please add the note about possible changes / not taking that by the letter there.
Re the list of wiki articles that I thought needed to be added todocumentation, that are currently linked from the faq. Ok, so attached is a new document I started, with these faq items at the top, and we can add below as we work through the wiki.
- Nice :)
Briefly, it sounds like we agree that #1 and #2 would be good tobe documented. #3 and #4 are no longer applicable (the faq items which linked to them aren't there anymore -- I think there was some last minute editing, or otherwise sometime since I wrote that list, that those items were either dropped or changed, and the info isn't needed).
However, I think it would be awesome to have instructions for compiling, for all 3 supported systems!
- Yes :) But those instructions (esp. the necessary libraries you need
to install before you compile) change rapidly (relative to Inkscape-time units :)). I don't know if it is possible to make them so generic as to keep them current for as long as possible.
Is compiling a user topic? Or is this developer realm? For me, it's a bit in a grey zone in between, but more on the dev side. Testers would need that. Or people who want to offer Inkscape for download.
For the normal users, pre-release versions are available for download for previewing when a new release is nearing, and daily builds for Ubuntu are available all the time, too. I think ~suv is creating OS X builds regularly.
Compiling on Linux/Debian-based systems is quite generic and easy, and there's a (mostly, don't know about dependencies) current version on the Wiki: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/CompilingUbuntu
For Windows, the last update by TheAdib is from last summer: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/Creating_Inkscape_distributions#Crea...
For OS X, there's a clearly outdated guide: http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/CompilingMacOsX
Oh, oops - I just found that the info *is* already on the website: https://inkscape.org/en/develop/getting-started/ (could probably profit from an update, though)
You could add that to the to-do list, to a new 'Website' section, as 'needs update'.... Just like these: https://inkscape.org/en/contribute/testing/, https://inkscape.org/en/develop/debugging/ (that last one might just need a quick glance by someone who knows how it works, could still be current)
Yesterday, our translators already complained about outdated/unfinished pages... I couldn't help much with that, unfortunately, besides asking them to concentrate on the other pages... Argh...
The devs I had asked - various over time - all forgot about reviewing the page / had other priorities in the end, and I don't want to ask repeatedly... It's not my job to annoy people...
#5 is the Illustrator info. When I first started with Inkscape,there was some demand for this info. I used to see messages in forums from Illustrator users wishing to switch over -- at least enough messages to warrant the article or chapter in the manual. I haven't seen a message like that for probably.....2 or 3 years. I'm not sure why. It seems to me that the info should still be relevant (current info, I mean, current to both programs). But let's not get too hung up on how to accomplish this stuff. Let's just make the list for Step 1. And maybe by the time we're done, we'll be getting some ideas about Step 2. How does that sound?
- Reasonable, smart and good :)
Shortly after I send this, I'll add the list of 10 or 15 pagesfrom the list I told you I had started (separate from the 1 for the faq), and we can discuss whenever we have time. Does that sound ok?
- Yep.
Thank you, Brynn!
Kind regards, Maren
All best, brynn
From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 8:52 AM To: "Brynn" <brynn@...78...>; inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki?
Hi Brynn,
Am 20.06.2015 um 06:00 schrieb Brynn:
Hi Maren, Out of curiosity, when you type "wik" in you browser, how does it know to find the Inkscape wiki, and not Wikipedia, or Wikimedia, or some other program's wiki, etc?
- The browser proposes the pages I have visited most often first ;) The
other pages range below in the list it shows me.
If users are looking to the Roadmap as "set in stone" then theysimply need to be informed properly. For as long as I've been using Inkscape (8 years), the wiki has been a resource for both users and developers. Most of them have no idea that it's being groomed as 'developer only'. Ask Martin how many times I asked him to confirm that, Yes, the wiki will only be for developers. At least 4 or 5, as I recall. **It's a radical change, and afaik, I'm the only user who knows that.**
- I'm a user, too ;)
New people who want to download, or learn about Inkscape - at least in my google results - are guided to inkscape.org, not to wiki.inkscape.org. For the first few weeks that I was here, I didn't even know the Wiki existed (until I translated the pages that link to it). It seems this was different in a time when I haven't been part of the project, didn't know that.
Not only do I have a list of wiki articles that areuser-related, that are linked from the FAQ (attached), I actually started to make a list of ALL wiki articles that are for users. But I started getting tripped up when I came to things I didn't understand, and wasn't sure if they were for users or not. I would be glad to start working on that again, if I could get some guidance from you, on pages where I have questions. All I could do is make a list, but that might be a starting place for someone else?
- Sounds like we have a volunteer ;) - seriously, I believe it's a good
idea to make a list of which info should be accessible more easily to users. I can't promise we can take *everything* to the website (esp. those things that will be in the manual might not be needed there), but we should find out what could be missing, and give it proper thought.
(Note that when I first started working on the FAQ, I don'tthink you were involved yet. After I announced some of my work on the dev mailing list, it was Bryce who said that if I found info in the wiki which really should be in the documentation, to make note of it. It's possible that it's not appropriate for some of this to be documented, but that was my best understanding at the time.) I guess the FAQ would be my best idea as the best place for the Roadmap to be linked, if it should not be on the website. But it would go a long way towards preventing users from thinking it's "a done deal" by putting a simple sentence at the top of the page, to that effect. That could also be said in the faq. I was just about to add those couple of links I've been putting off adding. So shall I make the new faq item for the roadmap, while I'm at it?
- Go ahead :) - sounds good to me.
- You're quite hardy :)
I've internally categorized most of the Wiki pages as 'outdated' or 'describing a plan, but not necessarily the real implementation'...
Inkscape forums can be quite competitive, as to who gets the right answer. Although it's never really verbalized, many are aware!
Where can I look to find out whether a page is outdated or describing a plan?
- Argh. That's difficult. You'd actually need to know the current state
to *know* if the info is still correct.
So there are a few options:
- Look at the top of the page. If there's a hint that the info is
outdated, discard right away.
- Look at the history of the page, to see when it was last changed.
This is not a really good indicator, because a few things just don't change, but it can give you a hint.
- Compare with your own knowledge about the topic. Is it different?
(That's where it gets difficult... Neither you nor I nor Martin will be able to tell that for all wiki pages)
- Ask someone who might know.
(This is difficult, too - we know that we don't always get answers... and that people often react annoyed to this kind of question, or say they will help and then never get around to it. This does not have priority for many.)
For much of the user-relevant contents, I guess you and I will be able to judge if it is current, with the help of suv for OS X questions. We might not be able to say this for pages about comparisons with other software, which we do not own.
About the attached list of Wiki articles:
- some of the Illustrator stuff seems no longer really necessary, as we
now have the keyboard shortcut editor, which also has the option to choose the Illustrator shortcuts from the dropdown. For the other things, I'm not sure a comparison is a good topic for us... As both programs have evolved since that article was written, I'm inclined to think that much of it will be outdated. If someone made a more current comparison, this would be good as some kind of article, with version numbers and dates, so everyone can see which versions this refers to.
- Latex is important. Should definitely be part of the manual. Or we
could write some kind of official article, with a date on it and a reference to the version number. Problem is, I can't contribute any info there. I also don't know who can (in the answers section, these questions usually remain unanswered). And the extensions seem to be quite buggy currently, anyway...
- Customizing: should be in the manual. Or an article about this would
be nice. But there's also some work going on on this, so it may be subject to change.
- Installing: Hopelessly outdated (3+4 are the same page). AFAIK,
people usually know what to do with a file they download, anyway - and all the other info is already in the FAQ. Or which info on that page should be transferred? I might have overlooked something...
Could you keep track of the kind of info you are looking up, so we can maybe find a way to include the main components on the website?
I don't remember everything I've looked up, but once was info about the new Symbols dialog. And if the new manual comes out pretty soon, I won't have to go to the wiki anymore. This is a whole other subject, but I wish we had like a team to write the manual, so it wouldn't all be on 1 person's shoulders! I mean, Inkscape really should have it's own "official manual", rather than an "official" manual. And imo, the official manual should be on the website. But again, that's another subject.
- Yes, I know. I feel like you do, but I can't start a team for this
myself. We once had a team who collaboratively wrote a manual, but that effort seems to have died... I don't know why, I wasn't around.
What I know is that Tav actually does not make money with the manual, and would be delighted if some day, there were an effort made to make a real, freely usable, user manual (well, I asked him about the background of the 'official' manual being restrictively licenced, and he actually took the time to explain to me.)
The difficulty is it would have to start from the FOSS manual and it can't copy anything from Tav's guide. (when I started using Inkscape, I found Tav's guide quite difficult to understand - it was far too technical - so that might not be so bad, in the end) And of course, we'd need at least 10 people who want to help with that, who have the time for this, who have a good command of English, and who actually have the knowledge to do so. And we'd need someone who knows how to write documentation to guide them. This seems unrealistic to me, currently, judging from overall user activity on mailing lists etc. ... We should open up a 'job wall' somewhere... there a so many vacancies ;)
Kind regards, Maren
Thanks, brynn
From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 12:46 PM To: "Brynn" <brynn@...78...>; inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki?
Hi Brynn,
Am 19.06.2015 um 05:19 schrieb Brynn: > Hi Maren, > Yes, I understand that the intent for the wiki is more for > developers. I didn't mean there should be a more prominent link for > users to get to the wiki. I meant for developers, but others could > use > it too.
- Mmh. For devs, the link isn't too hidden, I think:
https://inkscape.org/en/develop/ , fourth paragraph (but also new devs should not rely on the info in the Wiki being up to date).
I usually just type 'wik' into my browser's address line, and then autocompletion kicks in...
> I don't know. Maybe developers just don't need to go from > website to wiki. Maybe it's just me. > But fwiw, what I'm looking for most often is the Release > Notes,
- I think that for the next version we could try and get the Release
Notes on the website when they are finalized. They are an important part of the documentation. This will also make it easier for our translators' team (who have access to website editing, but most don't have wiki privileges) to translate them (translating Release Notes is a difficult task by itself...).
> Roadmap,
- The Roadmap is being changed by devs all the time - and users
should not rely on it too much - but unfortunately, they often take it by the letter, and are then disappointed... It's good info, but I'm a bit hesitant to put it on the website. Is there a place on the website which could profit from a direct link to the Roadmap? (maybe: The Next Release, FAQ, Features?)
> and I often search the wiki while trying to answer support > questions from forums.
- You're quite hardy :)
I've internally categorized most of the Wiki pages as 'outdated' or 'describing a plan, but not necessarily the real implementation'... Could you keep track of the kind of info you are looking up, so we can maybe find a way to include the main components on the website?
> And for the latter, this is especially more for > the new-in-0.91-features, because the manual hasn't been updated, > and a > lot of the new features are explained in the wiki. Once the > manual is > updated, I won't be in the wiki as much.
- Tav told me he'd take care of this soon. But it's an awful lot of
work (so many new features ;) ), so it may still take a while.
> (There IS a lot of user-focused stuff in the wiki! I > started to > work on some of it, thinking maybe it could be updated and moved to > the > website, like I did with the faq. But almost all of it is over my > head. > I did make a list of the ones that are referenced in the faq, > hoping to at least get that much transferred over.
- Could you share that list?
But afaik, no one > has updated them or moved to the website.)
Kind regards, Maren
> > Thanks, > brynn > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Maren Hachmann" <maren@...68...> > Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 12:26 PM > To: inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] more prominent link to the wiki? > >> Am 17.06.2015 um 07:31 schrieb Brynn: >>> Hi Friends, >>> This might be just me, but I find myself needing to browse >>> from >>> the >>> website to the wiki fairly often. Of course I have a >>> Favorite/Bookmark >>> for >>> it. But I wonder if a link to the wiki should be easier to >>> find on >>> the >>> website? >> >> Hi Brynn, >> >> depends a bit on what the Wiki is intended for. >> Is it for learning? >> >> I understood it more to be a site where the devs exchange their >> ideas. >> Most of the info there is outdated, and not regularly refreshed, or >> only >> important to developers - beside the Release notes, which live >> there, >> because we didn't carry them over to the website after they were >> finished (and which the devs may find easier to edit in the Wiki >> than on >> the web site - at least it allows to insert SVG as images...). >> >> What are your use cases? >> Which of the info in the Wiki should be accessible more easily? >> >> Regards, >> Maren >> >>> Usually I open the Learn page, and use the link near the >>> bottom >>> of >>> the page. Anyway, just a thought I wanted to share. And I wonder >>> what >>> others might think about it. Maybe that Learn page link is >>> enough? >>> >>> All best, >>> brynn >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Inkscape-docs mailing list >>> Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Inkscape-docs mailing list >> Inkscape-docs@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs > >
participants (3)
-
Brynn -
Maren Hachmann -
Martin Owens