svg for web pages.
I am planning to convert one of my web sites to all-svg. I am wondering about the use of a site map. Is it the same as for an html site (with different names of course)?
On Thu, 30 May 2013 08:37:51 -0400 john Culleton <John@...1668...> wrote:
I am planning to convert one of my web sites to all-svg. I am wondering about the use of a site map. Is it the same as for an html site (with different names of course)?
John, are you saying there will be no HTML on your website, only SVG?
Why?
SteveT
Steve Litt * http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
On Thu, 30 May 2013 17:11:48 -0400 Steve Litt <slitt@...2357...> wrote:
On Thu, 30 May 2013 08:37:51 -0400 john Culleton <John@...1668...> wrote:
I am planning to convert one of my web sites to all-svg. I am wondering about the use of a site map. Is it the same as for an html site (with different names of course)?
John, are you saying there will be no HTML on your website, only SVG?
Why?
SteveT
Perhaps because it can be done. I built a subdomain and put just an index.svg file on it and it worked. Now I am not religous about this. If there is a good reason for using html wrapped around an svg entity I may do that. Can you think of a good reason?
Am 2013-05-30 23:50, schrieb john Culleton:
Perhaps because it can be done. I built a subdomain and put just an index.svg file on it and it worked. Now I am not religous about this. If there is a good reason for using html wrapped around an svg entity I may do that. Can you think of a good reason?
It depends on what your site does - but with most typical websites, using SVG for everything hurts accessibility because the document structure can no longer be analyzed, the site is no longer usable with screen readers or text browsers, and so on. SVG really wasn't designed for this, and if it started to be used like that, that wouldn't be much better than Flash websites (which fortunately aren't as popular anymore as they used to be).
On Fri, 2013-05-31 at 00:00 +0200, darkweasel wrote:
that wouldn't be much better than Flash websites
That's not fair. The text from an svg _could_ be read and while we're waiting on SVG 2.0 to deliver us accessible svg, we should put the breaks on people who want to experiment and play with what the web can do.
Even if the use does have caveats, how else is svg to spread in use and scope if we furrow brows at every adventuring webdev?
Martin,
On Thu, 30 May 2013 17:50:10 -0400 john Culleton <John@...1668...> wrote:
On Thu, 30 May 2013 17:11:48 -0400 Steve Litt <slitt@...2357...> wrote:
On Thu, 30 May 2013 08:37:51 -0400 john Culleton <John@...1668...> wrote:
I am planning to convert one of my web sites to all-svg. I am wondering about the use of a site map. Is it the same as for an html site (with different names of course)?
John, are you saying there will be no HTML on your website, only SVG?
Why?
SteveT
Perhaps because it can be done. I built a subdomain and put just an index.svg file on it and it worked. Now I am not religous about this. If there is a good reason for using html wrapped around an svg entity I may do that. Can you think of a good reason?
My main reason is that HTML is good at its job...
* Separates meaning from style (via CSS etc) * Very easy to hand code in an editor * Worldwide standard
Against that backdrop, what would be the compelling reason to have a website *exclusively* built with SVG? Obviously SVG is good for the images, and for links in the images if that can be done, and video, etc, but I'm not sure why one would forgo the ease and adaptability of HTML.
By the way, I'm starting to use SVG images on my websites. Often direct from Inkscape, with the Inkscape metadata still in them. They render well with all my browsers (but I don't use IE). See this:
http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/larrymap/larrymaps.htm
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt * http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
An all-SVG site: well, If only for the 'sake of argument' and 'proof of concept'... yeah, why not? Good idea!
But I still don't understand the original question. What do you mean with " I am wondering about the use of a site map." → How to build a sitemap in SVG? Or, what should be the navigation-structure of the site be?
Or: what CMS supports all-SVG websites :)
?
On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 2:39 AM, Steve Litt <slitt@...2357...>wrote:
On Thu, 30 May 2013 17:50:10 -0400 john Culleton <John@...1668...> wrote:
On Thu, 30 May 2013 17:11:48 -0400 Steve Litt <slitt@...2357...> wrote:
On Thu, 30 May 2013 08:37:51 -0400 john Culleton <John@...1668...> wrote:
I am planning to convert one of my web sites to all-svg. I am wondering about the use of a site map. Is it the same as for an html site (with different names of course)?
John, are you saying there will be no HTML on your website, only SVG?
Why?
SteveT
Perhaps because it can be done. I built a subdomain and put just an index.svg file on it and it worked. Now I am not religous about this. If there is a good reason for using html wrapped around an svg entity I may do that. Can you think of a good reason?
My main reason is that HTML is good at its job...
- Separates meaning from style (via CSS etc)
- Very easy to hand code in an editor
- Worldwide standard
Against that backdrop, what would be the compelling reason to have a website *exclusively* built with SVG? Obviously SVG is good for the images, and for links in the images if that can be done, and video, etc, but I'm not sure why one would forgo the ease and adaptability of HTML.
By the way, I'm starting to use SVG images on my websites. Often direct from Inkscape, with the Inkscape metadata still in them. They render well with all my browsers (but I don't use IE). See this:
http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/larrymap/larrymaps.htm
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt * http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
Get 100% visibility into Java/.NET code with AppDynamics Lite It's a free troubleshooting tool designed for production Get down to code-level detail for bottlenecks, with <2% overhead. Download for free and get started troubleshooting in minutes. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_ap2 _______________________________________________ Inkscape-user mailing list Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
Hi,
I wouldn't recommend doing an SVG only website.
But the accessibility of SVG is way better than the one from Flash. The one is a binary, frame based format, the other is text-based markup that humans, machines, search engines and screen readers can read. I have seen screen readers for the blind where Apache Batik was used to make SVG charts and maps accessible to the blind and visually impaired by providing tactile and acoustic feedback.
True - SVG screenreaders are not yet embedded in browsers by default, but if more people would use SVG on the web, it would encourage browser developers to improve the accessibility of SVG documents. Technically (from a format point of view) there are no accessibility problems with SVG - but implementation wise and maybe also from author guidelines things could be improved.
I would use SVG along with HTML, each for its strength. Interactive graphics, apps, charts and maps with SVG, documents with lots of text and navigation with HTML, backgrounds, gradients and decorations (e.g. for bullet lists) can be done in SVG in modern browsers.
Andreas
On Fri, 31 May 2013 08:20:11 +0200, Maarten van der Velde wrote:
An all-SVG site: well, If only for the 'sake of argument' and 'proof of concept'... yeah, why not? Good idea!
But I still don't understand the original question. What do you mean with " I am wondering about the use of a site map." → How to build a sitemap in SVG? Or, what should be the navigation-structure of the site be?
Or: what CMS supports all-SVG websites :)
?
On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 2:39 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
On Thu, 30 May 2013 17:50:10 -0400
john Culleton wrote:
On Thu, 30 May 2013 17:11:48 -0400 Steve Litt wrote:
On Thu, 30 May 2013 08:37:51 -0400 john Culleton wrote:
I am planning to convert one of my web sites to all-svg. I am wondering about the use of a site map. Is it the same as for
an
html site (with different names of course)?
John, are you saying there will be no HTML on your website,
only
SVG?
Why?
SteveT
Perhaps because it can be done. I built a subdomain and put just
an
index.svg file on it and it worked. Now I am not religous about
this.
If there is a good reason for using html wrapped around an svg
entity
I may do that. Can you think of a good reason?
My main reason is that HTML is good at its job...
- Separates meaning from style (via CSS etc)
- Very easy to hand code in an editor
- Worldwide standard
Against that backdrop, what would be the compelling reason to have a website *exclusively* built with SVG? Obviously SVG is good for the images, and for links in the images if that can be done, and video, etc, but I'm not sure why one would forgo the ease and adaptability of HTML.
By the way, I'm starting to use SVG images on my websites. Often direct from Inkscape, with the Inkscape metadata still in them. They render well with all my browsers (but I don't use IE). See this:
http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/larrymap/larrymaps.htm [4]
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt * http://www.troubleshooters.com/ [5] Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
Get 100% visibility into Java/.NET code with AppDynamics Lite It's a free troubleshooting tool designed for production Get down to code-level detail for bottlenecks, with
Links:
[1] mailto:John@...1668... [2] mailto:slitt@...2357... [3] mailto:John@...1668... [4] http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/larrymap/larrymaps.htm [5] http://www.troubleshooters.com/ [6] http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_ap2 [7] mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net [8] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user [9] mailto:slitt@...2357...
Am 2013-05-31 08:52, schrieb Andreas Neumann:
But the accessibility of SVG is way better than the one from Flash. The one is a binary, frame based format, the other is text-based markup that humans, machines, search engines and screen readers can read. I have seen screen readers for the blind where Apache Batik was used to make SVG charts and maps accessible to the blind and visually impaired by providing tactile and acoustic feedback.
I know that (which is why I wrote "not much better" and not "just as bad"), but SVG is still much worse than HTML - by design, since a graphics format doesn't need to be as accessible as a hypertext format. Sorry if that came across too strongly.
However, if it's just to show it can be done, then why not?
Hi Andreas,
Indeed, if SBG is tagged correctly, it is easy for adaptive technology to be able to read it. Tagging involves using the title attribute to label elements. See http://www.viewplustech.com for examples of accessible SVG.
Pranav -----Original Message----- From: Andreas Neumann [mailto:a.neumann@...2251...] Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 12:22 PM To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] svg for web pages.
Hi,
I wouldn't recommend doing an SVG only website.
But the accessibility of SVG is way better than the one from Flash. The one is a binary, frame based format, the other is text-based markup that humans, machines, search engines and screen readers can read. I have seen screen readers for the blind where Apache Batik was used to make SVG charts and maps accessible to the blind and visually impaired by providing tactile and acoustic feedback.
True - SVG screenreaders are not yet embedded in browsers by default, but if more people would use SVG on the web, it would encourage browser developers to improve the accessibility of SVG documents. Technically (from a format point of view) there are no accessibility problems with SVG - but implementation wise and maybe also from author guidelines things could be improved.
I would use SVG along with HTML, each for its strength. Interactive graphics, apps, charts and maps with SVG, documents with lots of text and navigation with HTML, backgrounds, gradients and decorations (e.g. for bullet lists) can be done in SVG in modern browsers.
Andreas
On Fri, 31 May 2013 08:20:11 +0200, Maarten van der Velde wrote:
An all-SVG site: well, If only for the 'sake of argument' and 'proof of concept'... yeah, why not? Good idea!
But I still don't understand the original question. What do you mean with " I am wondering about the use of a site map." → How to build a sitemap in SVG? Or, what should be the navigation-structure of the site be?
Or: what CMS supports all-SVG websites :)
?
On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 2:39 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
On Thu, 30 May 2013 17:50:10 -0400
john Culleton wrote:
On Thu, 30 May 2013 17:11:48 -0400 Steve Litt wrote:
On Thu, 30 May 2013 08:37:51 -0400 john Culleton wrote:
I am planning to convert one of my web sites to all-svg. I am wondering about the use of a site map. Is it the same as for
an
html site (with different names of course)?
John, are you saying there will be no HTML on your website,
only
SVG?
Why?
SteveT
Perhaps because it can be done. I built a subdomain and put just
an
index.svg file on it and it worked. Now I am not religous about
this.
If there is a good reason for using html wrapped around an svg
entity
I may do that. Can you think of a good reason?
My main reason is that HTML is good at its job...
- Separates meaning from style (via CSS etc)
- Very easy to hand code in an editor
- Worldwide standard
Against that backdrop, what would be the compelling reason to have a website *exclusively* built with SVG? Obviously SVG is good for the images, and for links in the images if that can be done, and video, etc, but I'm not sure why one would forgo the ease and adaptability of HTML.
By the way, I'm starting to use SVG images on my websites. Often direct from Inkscape, with the Inkscape metadata still in them. They render well with all my browsers (but I don't use IE). See this:
http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/larrymap/larrymaps.htm [4]
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt * http://www.troubleshooters.com/ [5] Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
Get 100% visibility into Java/.NET code with AppDynamics Lite It's a free troubleshooting tool designed for production Get down to code-level detail for bottlenecks, with
Links:
[1] mailto:John@...1668... [2] mailto:slitt@...2357... [3] mailto:John@...1668... [4] http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/larrymap/larrymaps.htm [5] http://www.troubleshooters.com/ [6] http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_ap2 [7] mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net [8] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user [9] mailto:slitt@...2357...
Thinking of it, why does HTML not have a <circle> or a <rect> element?
On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 5:13 AM, Pranav Lal <pranav.lal@...155...> wrote:
Hi Andreas,
Indeed, if SBG is tagged correctly, it is easy for adaptive technology to be able to read it. Tagging involves using the title attribute to label elements. See http://www.viewplustech.com for examples of accessible SVG.
Pranav -----Original Message----- From: Andreas Neumann [mailto:a.neumann@...2251...] Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 12:22 PM To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] svg for web pages.
Hi,
I wouldn't recommend doing an SVG only website.
But the accessibility of SVG is way better than the one from Flash. The one is a binary, frame based format, the other is text-based markup that humans, machines, search engines and screen readers can read. I have seen screen readers for the blind where Apache Batik was used to make SVG charts and maps accessible to the blind and visually impaired by providing tactile and acoustic feedback.
True - SVG screenreaders are not yet embedded in browsers by default, but if more people would use SVG on the web, it would encourage browser developers to improve the accessibility of SVG documents. Technically (from a format point of view) there are no accessibility problems with SVG - but implementation wise and maybe also from author guidelines things could be improved.
I would use SVG along with HTML, each for its strength. Interactive graphics, apps, charts and maps with SVG, documents with lots of text and navigation with HTML, backgrounds, gradients and decorations (e.g. for bullet lists) can be done in SVG in modern browsers.
Andreas
On Fri, 31 May 2013 08:20:11 +0200, Maarten van der Velde wrote:
An all-SVG site: well, If only for the 'sake of argument' and 'proof of concept'... yeah, why not? Good idea!
But I still don't understand the original question. What do you mean with " I am wondering about the use of a site map." → How to build a sitemap in SVG? Or, what should be the navigation-structure of the site be?
Or: what CMS supports all-SVG websites :)
?
On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 2:39 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
On Thu, 30 May 2013 17:50:10 -0400
john Culleton wrote:
On Thu, 30 May 2013 17:11:48 -0400 Steve Litt wrote:
On Thu, 30 May 2013 08:37:51 -0400 john Culleton wrote:
I am planning to convert one of my web sites to all-svg. I am wondering about the use of a site map. Is it the same as for
an
html site (with different names of course)?
John, are you saying there will be no HTML on your website,
only
SVG?
Why?
SteveT
Perhaps because it can be done. I built a subdomain and put just
an
index.svg file on it and it worked. Now I am not religous about
this.
If there is a good reason for using html wrapped around an svg
entity
I may do that. Can you think of a good reason?
My main reason is that HTML is good at its job...
- Separates meaning from style (via CSS etc)
- Very easy to hand code in an editor
- Worldwide standard
Against that backdrop, what would be the compelling reason to have a website *exclusively* built with SVG? Obviously SVG is good for the images, and for links in the images if that can be done, and video, etc, but I'm not sure why one would forgo the ease and adaptability of HTML.
By the way, I'm starting to use SVG images on my websites. Often direct from Inkscape, with the Inkscape metadata still in them. They render well with all my browsers (but I don't use IE). See this:
http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/larrymap/larrymaps.htm [4]
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt * http://www.troubleshooters.com/ [5] Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
Get 100% visibility into Java/.NET code with AppDynamics Lite It's a free troubleshooting tool designed for production Get down to code-level detail for bottlenecks, with
Links:
[1] mailto:John@...1668... [2] mailto:slitt@...2357... [3] mailto:John@...1668... [4] http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/larrymap/larrymaps.htm [5] http://www.troubleshooters.com/ [6] http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_ap2 [7] mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net [8] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user [9] mailto:slitt@...2357...
--
Andreas Neumann Böschacherstrasse 10A 8624 Grüt (Gossau ZH) Switzerland
Get 100% visibility into Java/.NET code with AppDynamics Lite It's a free troubleshooting tool designed for production Get down to code-level detail for bottlenecks, with <2% overhead. Download for free and get started troubleshooting in minutes. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_ap2 _______________________________________________ Inkscape-user mailing list Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
Get 100% visibility into Java/.NET code with AppDynamics Lite It's a free troubleshooting tool designed for production Get down to code-level detail for bottlenecks, with <2% overhead. Download for free and get started troubleshooting in minutes. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_ap2 _______________________________________________ Inkscape-user mailing list Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
participants (7)
-
Andreas Neumann -
darkweasel -
john Culleton -
Maarten van der Velde -
Martin Owens -
Pranav Lal -
Steve Litt