Dear Developer team,
Thank you to everyone who made the developer meeting today; we talked a lot about what the budget should look like from the developer team. I have comprised the ideas here which I will be bringing to the next board meeting to be held on June 4th 2021 ( https://inkscape.org/cals/event/2/)
Current items to be requested immediately:
* The Developer team requests a General Administrator who can take care of many of the organisational tasks which we currently struggle to. This is deemed more important than any funding for specific features. I'd like to invite everyone to join me for a meeting to flesh out what this would look like, we'll use previous work as a base and work from there. Please come to BigBlueButton next Sunday 30th May at 17:00UTC (https://inkscape.org/cals/event/25/) to make sure our proposal is detailed enough.
* We would like to budget $5k on macOS speed problems; this is to be spent on analysis first, and then solutions second. The whole developer team recognises how dire the situation is with René specifically saying that without a fix we should not release for macOS in the future.
Future budget requests which we do not have a consensus for, or details are missing:
* CMYK support; Tav would like this, developers feel it's not important enough. A user study would be useful to know for sure. * PathFinder; Taking over, or working with the Linux foundation for their Rust based pathfinder is a great way to bring GPU rendering to Inkscape. Marc is to contact the linux foundation and Linkmauve about collaboration or taking over the project. * ARM Machine for René; If we continue to develop macOS, René will need one of the newer ARM based macOS machine which would be set up to do CI builds. Improving the ability to check and build testing builds for macOS.
Thanks everyone for attending, we had quite a lot of the developer team there today and a lot of students so I feel good that we got to see a lot of different opinions. But let me know in this thread if you have details to add, or can't make the above meeting and want to make sure something is included.
Best Regards, Martin Owens Developer Team Hat
Hi Martin,
Been a long time since I was active on here, so before I give my 2ps worth, good job on all the recent improvements everyone.
* I'd definitely support Tavs push for CMYK support, its got to be one of the most common questions we've had from users about capability for years. Its also one of the stumbling blocks to being more useful in serious print type jobs. * on the M1 mac for René, that sounds like a good investment to me. Its not a massive cost, but it potentially unlocks a big improvement in our mac support.
Cheers
John
On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 8:33 PM Martin Owens doctormo@geek-2.com wrote:
Dear Developer team,
Thank you to everyone who made the developer meeting today; we talked a lot about what the budget should look like from the developer team. I have comprised the ideas here which I will be bringing to the next board meeting to be held on June 4th 2021 ( https://inkscape.org/cals/event/2/)
Current items to be requested immediately:
- The Developer team requests a General Administrator who can take
care of many of the organisational tasks which we currently struggle to. This is deemed more important than any funding for specific features. I'd like to invite everyone to join me for a meeting to flesh out what this would look like, we'll use previous work as a base and work from there. Please come to BigBlueButton next Sunday 30th May at 17:00UTC (https://inkscape.org/cals/event/25/) to make sure our proposal is detailed enough.
- We would like to budget $5k on macOS speed problems; this is to be
spent on analysis first, and then solutions second. The whole developer team recognises how dire the situation is with René specifically saying that without a fix we should not release for macOS in the future.
Future budget requests which we do not have a consensus for, or details are missing:
- CMYK support; Tav would like this, developers feel it's not
important enough. A user study would be useful to know for sure.
- PathFinder; Taking over, or working with the Linux foundation for
their Rust based pathfinder is a great way to bring GPU rendering to Inkscape. Marc is to contact the linux foundation and Linkmauve about collaboration or taking over the project.
- ARM Machine for René; If we continue to develop macOS, René will
need one of the newer ARM based macOS machine which would be set up to do CI builds. Improving the ability to check and build testing builds for macOS.
Thanks everyone for attending, we had quite a lot of the developer team there today and a lot of students so I feel good that we got to see a lot of different opinions. But let me know in this thread if you have details to add, or can't make the above meeting and want to make sure something is included.
Best Regards, Martin Owens Developer Team Hat _______________________________________________ Inkscape Devel mailing list -- inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org To unsubscribe send an email to inkscape-devel-leave@lists.inkscape.org
On Mon, 2021-05-24 at 13:58 +0100, John Cliff wrote:
- I'd definitely support Tavs push for CMYK support, its got to be
one of the most common questions we've had from users about capability for years. Its also one of the stumbling blocks to being more useful in serious print type jobs.
Thanks John,
I'm looking for someone who could gather a list of users who have requested CMYK (or similar) and ask them about what they want. Specifically the difference between producing pdfs with named colours, or just saving cmyk values in the svg (very different problems).
Would you be available to gather more information from our users to solidify a case for investing in it? Maybe Tav can help too, but as volunteers we're always somewhat busy.
Best Regards, Martin Owens
There's also the discussion with requirements we had already talked about:
https://gitlab.com/inkscape/vectors/general/-/issues/45
Unfortunately, Bryce has removed the writeup from his website, and archive.org doesn't have it, either... (http://www.bryceharrington.org/print.md).
Maren
Am 24.05.21 um 15:08 schrieb Martin Owens:
On Mon, 2021-05-24 at 13:58 +0100, John Cliff wrote:
- I'd definitely support Tavs push for CMYK support, its got to be
one of the most common questions we've had from users about capability for years. Its also one of the stumbling blocks to being more useful in serious print type jobs.
Thanks John,
I'm looking for someone who could gather a list of users who have requested CMYK (or similar) and ask them about what they want. Specifically the difference between producing pdfs with named colours, or just saving cmyk values in the svg (very different problems).
Would you be available to gather more information from our users to solidify a case for investing in it? Maybe Tav can help too, but as volunteers we're always somewhat busy.
Best Regards, Martin Owens _______________________________________________ Inkscape Devel mailing list -- inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org To unsubscribe send an email to inkscape-devel-leave@lists.inkscape.org
Great, thanks for writing up minutes of this Martin! Nice to get some of the discussion that happens on video chats out those those who can't make them. On May 23 2021, at 2:33 pm, Martin Owens doctormo@geek-2.com wrote:
- The Developer team requests a General Administrator who can take
care of many of the organisational tasks which we currently struggle to. This is deemed more important than any funding for specific features.
I think this is a good effort and assessment of where our problems are. I think the struggle we've had in the past is making it "big enough" to be a job while making it so that someone has that skillset. I felt when we mixed the admin and release management aspects that was great, but Bryce would probably be the only person who could do both. I'm excited to see what the committee is able to do with it.
- We would like to budget $5k on macOS speed problems; this is to be
spent on analysis first, and then solutions second. The whole developer team recognises how dire the situation is with René specifically saying that without a fix we should not release for macOS in the future.
I think that it is likely the first answer here is "port to GTK4" as they've entirely rewritten the OSX backend in GTK4, specifically targeting speed problems. There is also work on a Metal backend for GTK4.
- CMYK support; Tav would like this, developers feel it's not
important enough. A user study would be useful to know for sure.
I was thinking about this the other day and thinking that in general, this is an overhaul of color. We could at the same time reasonably add support for HDR as well (I think). While the print folks want CMYK and spot colors, the game asset folks want HDR. Curious if we could merge these into something we could fund raise on if we had a proposal? Having two major groups of folks interested would definitely help in that regard. Also, with HDR on it, curious if we couldn't do an Epic grant for it: https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/megagrants
- ARM Machine for René; If we continue to develop macOS, René will
need one of the newer ARM based macOS machine which would be set up to do CI builds. Improving the ability to check and build testing builds for macOS.
While I'm all for buying HW developers need to do cool things, I don't think it is a good idea for people to have CI machines in their homes. They could live in Texas and not have power for a week (never could happen) or move or anything else. Better to have those in Data Centers. Perhaps we could separate those into two items? Also, for grants for HW needed to support features LinuxFund has money we can tap into, I know some folks there. Also, on this topic I noticed that David Revoy did a review of a reasonably priced (for what it is) drawing tablet the other day: https://www.davidrevoy.com/article842/review-of-the-xp-pen-artist-24-pro-on-... and their website lists GIMP/Krita but no Inkscape https://www.xp-pen.com/product/602.html Might be HW worth looking into. Ted
On 24-05-2021 16:36, Ted Gould wrote:
I think that it is likely the first answer here is "port to GTK4" as they've entirely rewritten the OSX backend in GTK4, specifically targeting speed problems. There is also work on a Metal backend for GTK4.
Switching to GTK4 might also help with the problems I was facing with the objects and layers dialog; they would grind Inkscape to a halt on large documents. To improve the scalability, I added arrays referencing to each of the objects to allow for a quick look-up, but my implementation is not very clean nor robust. See https://blog.gtk.org/2020/06/07/scalable-lists-in-gtk-4/
Best regards,
Diederik
On Tue, 2021-05-25 at 12:00 +0200, Diederik van Lierop wrote:
On 24-05-2021 16:36, Ted Gould wrote:
I think that it is likely the first answer here is "port to GTK4" as they've entirely rewritten the OSX backend in GTK4, specifically targeting speed problems. There is also work on a Metal backend for GTK4.
Switching to GTK4 might also help with the problems I was facing with the objects and layers dialog; they would grind Inkscape to a halt on large documents. To improve the scalability, I added arrays referencing to each of the objects to allow for a quick look-up, but my implementation is not very clean nor robust. See https://blog.gtk.org/2020/06/07/scalable-lists-in-gtk-4/
This is interesting.
The objects dialog is currently under complete rewriting:
https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape/-/merge_requests/2466
Myself and Thomas will be working on it more in about 5 weeks time. We'd be happy to have help, even if it's just code review.
Best Regards, Martin Owens
Hi all,
someone has sent me a copy of the mentioned print.md file privately (which is extensive good documentation with the necessary tasks all laid out that could save us weeks), but I'm unsure whether it's okay to share it here, as Bryce has removed it from the web, along with his complete website (which may have been intentional or not).
Bryce, if you read this - do we have permission to use your CMYK writeup?
Maren
Am 24.05.21 um 15:39 schrieb Maren Hachmann:
There's also the discussion with requirements we had already talked about:
https://gitlab.com/inkscape/vectors/general/-/issues/45
Unfortunately, Bryce has removed the writeup from his website, and archive.org doesn't have it, either... (http://www.bryceharrington.org/print.md).
Maren
Am 24.05.21 um 15:08 schrieb Martin Owens:
On Mon, 2021-05-24 at 13:58 +0100, John Cliff wrote:
- I'd definitely support Tavs push for CMYK support, its got to be
one of the most common questions we've had from users about capability for years. Its also one of the stumbling blocks to being more useful in serious print type jobs.
Thanks John,
I'm looking for someone who could gather a list of users who have requested CMYK (or similar) and ask them about what they want. Specifically the difference between producing pdfs with named colours, or just saving cmyk values in the svg (very different problems).
Would you be available to gather more information from our users to solidify a case for investing in it? Maybe Tav can help too, but as volunteers we're always somewhat busy.
Best Regards, Martin Owens _______________________________________________ Inkscape Devel mailing list -- inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org To unsubscribe send an email to inkscape-devel-leave@lists.inkscape.org
Inkscape Devel mailing list -- inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org To unsubscribe send an email to inkscape-devel-leave@lists.inkscape.org
Hi again,
I received a reply from Bryce, allowing us to build upon the work he has already done in the mentioned file (as long as he's credited as the original author of it, with the same license as Inkscape, which applies to the Wiki content anyway). Thank you, Bryce!
So I've just (reformatted it and) added it to our Wiki, you can find it at https://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php?title=Color_Management_Planning
Maren
Am 26.05.21 um 15:03 schrieb Maren Hachmann:
Hi all,
someone has sent me a copy of the mentioned print.md file privately (which is extensive good documentation with the necessary tasks all laid out that could save us weeks), but I'm unsure whether it's okay to share it here, as Bryce has removed it from the web, along with his complete website (which may have been intentional or not).
Bryce, if you read this - do we have permission to use your CMYK writeup?
Maren
Am 24.05.21 um 15:39 schrieb Maren Hachmann:
There's also the discussion with requirements we had already talked about:
https://gitlab.com/inkscape/vectors/general/-/issues/45
Unfortunately, Bryce has removed the writeup from his website, and archive.org doesn't have it, either... (http://www.bryceharrington.org/print.md).
Maren
Am 24.05.21 um 15:08 schrieb Martin Owens:
On Mon, 2021-05-24 at 13:58 +0100, John Cliff wrote:
- I'd definitely support Tavs push for CMYK support, its got to be
one of the most common questions we've had from users about capability for years. Its also one of the stumbling blocks to being more useful in serious print type jobs.
Thanks John,
I'm looking for someone who could gather a list of users who have requested CMYK (or similar) and ask them about what they want. Specifically the difference between producing pdfs with named colours, or just saving cmyk values in the svg (very different problems).
Would you be available to gather more information from our users to solidify a case for investing in it? Maybe Tav can help too, but as volunteers we're always somewhat busy.
Best Regards, Martin Owens _______________________________________________ Inkscape Devel mailing list -- inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org To unsubscribe send an email to inkscape-devel-leave@lists.inkscape.org
Inkscape Devel mailing list -- inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org To unsubscribe send an email to inkscape-devel-leave@lists.inkscape.org
Inkscape Devel mailing list -- inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org To unsubscribe send an email to inkscape-devel-leave@lists.inkscape.org
Thanks for chasing this up Maren,
Feedback from these sources should be taken into account:
* Facebook - A poll of over a hundred Inkscape users indicates an extremely strong desire for CMYK and general print support. With users indicating that they are using many proprietary tools as workarounds, even when they like Inkscape's other workflows. Full report from Chris Rogers coming soon.
* Other FOSS projects - I've had a few conversations with some other people who work in places like Fedora. There's a strong desire to have CMYK and proper print handling amongst our wider Free Software community which is not being handled by our current setup with Scribus.
* Other - Other discussions on twitter, rocket chat and elsewhere have indicated an extremely large desire to have CMYK support.
So far, very few people have indicated that they would rather Inkscape work on some other feature. This seems to be the mass majority and also a thing which significantly effects people's use of Inkscape.
I'm going to raise the prospect of putting a $20k grant into CMYK and print features. We can discuss if this is too much or too little at the next meeting (this weekend) and work from there.
* macOS speed problems (est $5k) * CMYK print functionality (spitball $20k) * General project administrator position (undefined, probably a lot)
Please come to the meeting if you would like to talk about this further. https://inkscape.org/cals/event/2/
Best Regards, Martin Owens
On Thu, 2021-06-03 at 15:21 +0200, Maren Hachmann wrote:
Hi again,
I received a reply from Bryce, allowing us to build upon the work he has already done in the mentioned file (as long as he's credited as the original author of it, with the same license as Inkscape, which applies to the Wiki content anyway). Thank you, Bryce!
So I've just (reformatted it and) added it to our Wiki, you can find it at https://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php?title=Color_Management_Planning
Maren
Am 26.05.21 um 15:03 schrieb Maren Hachmann:
Hi all,
someone has sent me a copy of the mentioned print.md file privately (which is extensive good documentation with the necessary tasks all laid out that could save us weeks), but I'm unsure whether it's okay to share it here, as Bryce has removed it from the web, along with his complete website (which may have been intentional or not).
Bryce, if you read this - do we have permission to use your CMYK writeup?
Maren
Am 24.05.21 um 15:39 schrieb Maren Hachmann:
There's also the discussion with requirements we had already talked about:
https://gitlab.com/inkscape/vectors/general/-/issues/45
Unfortunately, Bryce has removed the writeup from his website, and archive.org doesn't have it, either... (http://www.bryceharrington.org/print.md).
Maren
Am 24.05.21 um 15:08 schrieb Martin Owens:
On Mon, 2021-05-24 at 13:58 +0100, John Cliff wrote:
- I'd definitely support Tavs push for CMYK support, its got
to be one of the most common questions we've had from users about capability for years. Its also one of the stumbling blocks to being more useful in serious print type jobs.
Thanks John,
I'm looking for someone who could gather a list of users who have requested CMYK (or similar) and ask them about what they want. Specifically the difference between producing pdfs with named colours, or just saving cmyk values in the svg (very different problems).
Would you be available to gather more information from our users to solidify a case for investing in it? Maybe Tav can help too, but as volunteers we're always somewhat busy.
Best Regards, Martin Owens _______________________________________________ Inkscape Devel mailing list -- inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org To unsubscribe send an email to inkscape-devel-leave@lists.inkscape.org
Inkscape Devel mailing list -- inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org To unsubscribe send an email to inkscape-devel-leave@lists.inkscape.org
Inkscape Devel mailing list -- inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org To unsubscribe send an email to inkscape-devel-leave@lists.inkscape.org
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On Jun 3 2021, at 10:07 am, doctormo@gmail.com wrote:
I'm going to raise the prospect of putting a $20k grant into CMYK and print features. We can discuss if this is too much or too little at the next meeting (this weekend) and work from there.
- macOS speed problems (est $5k)
- CMYK print functionality (spitball $20k)
- General project administrator position (undefined, probably a lot)
I'm not sure what these entail entirely (I haven't seen a formal definition) but if we're going off what Bryce posted on color I think we're talking at least a few developer-years of work. Spitballing, that seems like an order of magnitude off, like $300K not $20K. Now clearly that isn't something we can pay in cash right now, but I think Bryce's purpose in drafting that and working it out was to fund raise or look for grants for it. So perhaps it makes sense to budget components in this year and say "we want to do these, please donate!" or something like that. We'd of course also need someone willing to contract based on a "when we have money" basis, which may take looking towards a firm that could fill in with other work. I believe for the administrator position, with taxes/benefits/overhead/etc it was something like $120K/yr though that was a couple years ago when we asked the Conservancy for an estimate. Probably higher (like all things) now. Also, we didn't include travel in that, and it seems like we'd want this person to attend hack fests, so we should probably include some room for that. Ted
Hello All,
have you ever considered to use an other library to create the pdf? (podofo or skia)
A library that includes the colour features instead of implementing it into Cairo? I do not know exactly if other projects will profit from that feature in Cairo.
my 2 ct.
Adib. ---
On Fri, Jun 4, 2021 at 5:13 PM Ted Gould ted@gould.cx wrote:
On Jun 3 2021, at 10:07 am, doctormo@gmail.com wrote:
I'm going to raise the prospect of putting a $20k grant into CMYK and print features. We can discuss if this is too much or too little at the next meeting (this weekend) and work from there.
- macOS speed problems (est $5k)
- CMYK print functionality (spitball $20k)
- General project administrator position (undefined, probably a lot)
I'm not sure what these entail entirely (I haven't seen a formal definition) but if we're going off what Bryce posted on color I think we're talking at least a few developer-years of work. Spitballing, that seems like an order of magnitude off, like $300K not $20K.
Now clearly that isn't something we can pay in cash right now, but I think Bryce's purpose in drafting that and working it out was to fund raise or look for grants for it. So perhaps it makes sense to budget components in this year and say "we want to do these, please donate!" or something like that. We'd of course also need someone willing to contract based on a "when we have money" basis, which may take looking towards a firm that could fill in with other work.
I believe for the administrator position, with taxes/benefits/overhead/etc it was something like $120K/yr though that was a couple years ago when we asked the Conservancy for an estimate. Probably higher (like all things) now. Also, we didn't include travel in that, and it seems like we'd want this person to attend hack fests, so we should probably include some room for that.
Ted
Inkscape Devel mailing list -- inkscape-devel@lists.inkscape.org To unsubscribe send an email to inkscape-devel-leave@lists.inkscape.org
I'm not sure what these entail entirely (I haven't seen a formal definition) but if we're going off what Bryce posted on color I think we're talking at least a few developer-years of work. Spitballing, that seems like an order of magnitude off, like $300K not $20K.
I don't think it's necessary to budget for the whole project in one go. Putting together a reasonable first steps would be the way to do it, with a low tens of thousands we could kick the process into moving and **show** that the project is serious about tackling the colour management problem. This can then be used to run a funding campaign to the rest of the funding.
I believe for the administrator position, with taxes/benefits/overhead/etc it was something like $120K/yr though that was a couple years ago when we asked the Conservancy for an estimate. Probably higher (like all things) now. Also, we didn't include travel in that, and it seems like we'd want this person to attend hack fests, so we should probably include some room for that.
Because we'll be hosting the whole conversation here on the mailing list. I think it's worth linking to the notes for the whole conversations which will be kept here https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-board/-/issues/1
The next step is a meeting with the SFC to get advice for our proposal. If anyone would like another round of video meeting before going to the SFC, please let me know in the next week.
Best Regards, Martin Owens
participants (7)
-
Diederik van Lierop -
doctormo＠gmail.com -
John Cliff -
Maren Hachmann -
Martin Owens -
Ted Gould -
the Adib