Here's a link to an article that you can refer to if this happens again deleting the preferences isn't the best option...):

http://forum.inkscapecommunity.com/index.php?action=articles;sa=view;article...

("What To Do When A Tool Stops Working (Or Tools are Drawing Invisible Objects)")

Maren

Am 28.08.2018 um 10:10 schrieb K B:

Hi, Sam:

Thank you so much for taking the time to help me out.  I must have messed up the Circle tool some how, so I just deleted the whole program and re-installed it again.  Then it worked the way it was suppose to.  But I still needed help to get the Line to show up.  That was a good video; just wished they added narration (would have made it a little easier). Do you know of any way to save settings ?  They always seem to divert back to the way they were.  This is a great software program once one really learns how to use it.

Ken

On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 9:47 PM Sam <dersam24@...155... mailto:dersam24@...155...> wrote:

Hi Ken,

You need the shape tool. In Windows you can use the F5 key to
activate the circle tool, and then use Shift + CTRL + F to open the
properties window. In this window you can set the background color
of the circle and the color of the line.

Here's a video on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/eigHcF_KLKE

Sam


Am 28.08.2018 um 06:30 schrieb K B:

...

All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle.
(white background with white inside the circle).

But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little squares. 
Two squares are on the rectangle and the other two are outside. 
So, I go into: Edit, Preferences and the Circle it not even listed
under Shapes!   Crazy.

Does anybody know what I should do?

Thank you.

Ken


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The problem is there is no agreed upon solution. But I think Inkscape should never draw an invisible object anyway.

Particularly,

1. If both fill and stroke are set to none, Inkscape should resort to the Inkscape default setting of the bezier tool, which is black and white without dashed lines. Drawing an invisible shape is an error.

2. If the user modifies the line width, and the line is set to "none", Inkscape should set the colour of the line to the Inkscape default : black.

I think this is a better solution than setting the default behaviour of Inkscape to a bad workflow - users should not be getting used to having to change the colour of the line and stroke each and every time they draw something. It is not intuitive because when you draw in real life you pick up a pen which is the colour you want and draw with it until you are done, then choose another colour when you want a different one.

-C

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 07:59 K B, <kmb999@...155...> wrote:

Hi, Brynn: Thank you for the Link about the Bug fix. Since Inkscape is free, maybe the creators are not very motivated to fix everything about it ?

If it were a high price program like Adobe Illustrator, there would have enough money to pay programmers to fix it and make it better.

Ken

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:47 PM brynn <brynn@...3089...> wrote:

...

Some developers may remember a message I posted to the mailing lists some time ago, maybe a year or 2 ago, asking to have at least some of the tools set for Own Style (by default) rather than Last Used, to prevent this kind of utter confusion among new users.

At first, on the mailing list, some developers sort of hijacked it into their own different project.

But ultimately (in a bug report) one developer suggested a reasonable solution. See this bug report: https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777

If anyone else (developers) could chime in on that solution, perhaps we could get it coded into one of the next new versions, and prevent this type of headache for new users?

Thank you very much, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: K B Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:30 PM To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle. (white background with white inside the circle).

But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little squares. Two squares are on the rectangle and the other two are outside. So, I go into: Edit, Preferences and the Circle it not even listed under Shapes! Crazy.

Does anybody know what I should do?

Thank you.

Ken

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We are working hard to make it better and easier and more intuitive to use. You can certainly help our efforts by donation to the project - every little bit helps.

In the meantime it's probably easier to learn Inkscape's quirks and just work around them for now. I've been using Inkscape as a professional designer for over 7 years now, and once you get the hang of it, it's not so bad. A lot of bugs have been fixed since I first started using it, and lots of new features added. Mostly I'm grateful for devs who have helped and continue to help solve problems, and help where I can, and for community members who help users and make videos on how to use Inkscape.

Your feedback also helps, so thanks for bringing it to our attention!

-C

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 10:27 K B, <kmb999@...155...> wrote:

Brynn/CR:

I agree with you 100%. I can still remember when I first used it; it was so frustrating! It did not preform like you think it would. I also was just trying to use the eraser, but it did not erase part of the image like I thought it would. If I had a lot of extra money, I would probably just start using Adobe's Illustrator. Ken

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:48 AM C R <cajhne@...155...> wrote:

...

The problem is there is no agreed upon solution. But I think Inkscape should never draw an invisible object anyway.

Particularly,

1. If both fill and stroke are set to none, Inkscape should resort to the

Inkscape default setting of the bezier tool, which is black and white without dashed lines. Drawing an invisible shape is an error.

2. If the user modifies the line width, and the line is set to "none",

Inkscape should set the colour of the line to the Inkscape default : black.

I think this is a better solution than setting the default behaviour of Inkscape to a bad workflow - users should not be getting used to having to change the colour of the line and stroke each and every time they draw something. It is not intuitive because when you draw in real life you pick up a pen which is the colour you want and draw with it until you are done, then choose another colour when you want a different one.

-C

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 07:59 K B, <kmb999@...155...> wrote:

...

Hi, Brynn: Thank you for the Link about the Bug fix. Since Inkscape is free, maybe the creators are not very motivated to fix everything about it ?

If it were a high price program like Adobe Illustrator, there would have enough money to pay programmers to fix it and make it better.

Ken

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:47 PM brynn <brynn@...3089...> wrote:

...

Some developers may remember a message I posted to the mailing lists some time ago, maybe a year or 2 ago, asking to have at least some of the tools set for Own Style (by default) rather than Last Used, to prevent this kind of utter confusion among new users.

At first, on the mailing list, some developers sort of hijacked it into their own different project.

But ultimately (in a bug report) one developer suggested a reasonable solution. See this bug report: https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777

If anyone else (developers) could chime in on that solution, perhaps we could get it coded into one of the next new versions, and prevent this type of headache for new users?

Thank you very much, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: K B Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:30 PM To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle. (white background with white inside the circle).

But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little squares. Two squares are on the rectangle and the other two are outside. So, I go into: Edit, Preferences and the Circle it not even listed under Shapes! Crazy.

Does anybody know what I should do?

Thank you.

Ken

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Hi ken,

Inkscape it is really amazing and can do a ton of things... you just have to take some time to learn it.

I would say that watching the Channel "Logos by Nick" on youtube is a really good start.

He teaches things from begin to end and teaches a lot of cool stuff.

Wish you all the best,

--Victor Westmann

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:53 AM, K B <kmb999@...155...> wrote:

C R: I guess I was looking to do some real simple basic stuff and came into a very robust program with many bells and whistles that made it more complicated and harder to learn. Wished they had a "Lite version" so I could get up and running right away. I am not a professional illustrator, just want to create fairly simple Line Designs.

Ken

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:42 AM C R <cajhne@...155...> wrote:

...

We are working hard to make it better and easier and more intuitive to use. You can certainly help our efforts by donation to the project - every little bit helps.

In the meantime it's probably easier to learn Inkscape's quirks and just work around them for now. I've been using Inkscape as a professional designer for over 7 years now, and once you get the hang of it, it's not so bad. A lot of bugs have been fixed since I first started using it, and lots of new features added. Mostly I'm grateful for devs who have helped and continue to help solve problems, and help where I can, and for community members who help users and make videos on how to use Inkscape.

Your feedback also helps, so thanks for bringing it to our attention!

-C

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 10:27 K B, <kmb999@...155...> wrote:

...

Brynn/CR:

I agree with you 100%. I can still remember when I first used it; it was so frustrating! It did not preform like you think it would. I also was just trying to use the eraser, but it did not erase part of the image like I thought it would. If I had a lot of extra money, I would probably just start using Adobe's Illustrator. Ken

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:48 AM C R <cajhne@...155...> wrote:

...

The problem is there is no agreed upon solution. But I think Inkscape should never draw an invisible object anyway.

Particularly,

1. If both fill and stroke are set to none, Inkscape should resort to

the Inkscape default setting of the bezier tool, which is black and white without dashed lines. Drawing an invisible shape is an error.

2. If the user modifies the line width, and the line is set to "none",

Inkscape should set the colour of the line to the Inkscape default : black.

I think this is a better solution than setting the default behaviour of Inkscape to a bad workflow - users should not be getting used to having to change the colour of the line and stroke each and every time they draw something. It is not intuitive because when you draw in real life you pick up a pen which is the colour you want and draw with it until you are done, then choose another colour when you want a different one.

-C

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 07:59 K B, <kmb999@...155...> wrote:

...

Hi, Brynn: Thank you for the Link about the Bug fix. Since Inkscape is free, maybe the creators are not very motivated to fix everything about it ?

If it were a high price program like Adobe Illustrator, there would have enough money to pay programmers to fix it and make it better.

Ken

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:47 PM brynn <brynn@...3089...> wrote:

...

Some developers may remember a message I posted to the mailing lists some time ago, maybe a year or 2 ago, asking to have at least some of the tools set for Own Style (by default) rather than Last Used, to prevent this kind of utter confusion among new users.

At first, on the mailing list, some developers sort of hijacked it into their own different project.

But ultimately (in a bug report) one developer suggested a reasonable solution. See this bug report: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ inkscape/+bug/1704777

If anyone else (developers) could chime in on that solution, perhaps we could get it coded into one of the next new versions, and prevent this type of headache for new users?

Thank you very much, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: K B Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:30 PM To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle. (white background with white inside the circle).

But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little squares. Two squares are on the rectangle and the other two are outside. So, I go into: Edit, Preferences and the Circle it not even listed under Shapes! Crazy.

Does anybody know what I should do?

Thank you.

Ken

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I'll pile on...

Having followed this topic:

I have read through a dozens of requests for help with invisible objects, and not one nooB indicated that they had gone through the tutorials in the help menu (or even the first tutorial). *This suggests that users who have actually gone through the tutorials are not having these types of issues.*

Rather than change program architecture, I'd consider a first-run document or splash notification that encourages new users to explore the built in tutorials and the manual. A large amount of nooB frustration and community intervention could be avoided if the new users took the small amount of time the tutorials involve. After first-run or at user discretion, blank new document opens at launch without the message.

Also, very few community folks assisting in the issue have suggested using the status bar to gain more insight to what is happening in the workspace. Even Brynn's much referred-to post on the "invisible" subject fails to suggest that the status bar style-indicator displays vital information, or that the tool controls style indicator shows if color is applied to a selected tool. Pointing users in the direction of self-help using the provided tools might further reduce the need for interventive community response.

I do agree that it makes sense that when stroke-width is manipulated, stroke paint should be applied if none is present. However, see below:

draw a circle adjust outline to 3mm Set stroke paint to "none" *Stroke width now indicates 0.000*

*Adjust stroke width to 9mm, click enter, numeric field indicates 0.000*Add back stroke and width is now set to 9mm.

Win 8.1 64bit, Inkscape 0.92.2 (5c3e80d, 2017-08-06)

So, in the above case, stroke width is indeed being written to the XML, but not displayed in the numeric field, which makes sense, if stroke paint is set to none.

Lastly, I will add that users working with paths for cnc don't need stroke or fill. Lotta folks at my makerspace output to dxf, so it's common to view in outlines and not care about style. That said, it won't matter if strokes are applied (until the file is re-opened with normal view).

Regards, TD

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 3:29 PM K B <kmb999@...155...> wrote:

Victor: Thank you! I did not know about the Logos by Nick videos.

Ken

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:59 AM Victor Westmann < victor.westmann@...155...> wrote:

...

Hi ken,

Inkscape it is really amazing and can do a ton of things... you just have to take some time to learn it.

I would say that watching the Channel "Logos by Nick" on youtube is a really good start.

He teaches things from begin to end and teaches a lot of cool stuff.

Wish you all the best,

--Victor Westmann

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:53 AM, K B <kmb999@...155...> wrote:

...

C R: I guess I was looking to do some real simple basic stuff and came into a very robust program with many bells and whistles that made it more complicated and harder to learn. Wished they had a "Lite version" so I could get up and running right away. I am not a professional illustrator, just want to create fairly simple Line Designs.

Ken

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:42 AM C R <cajhne@...155...> wrote:

...

We are working hard to make it better and easier and more intuitive to use. You can certainly help our efforts by donation to the project - every little bit helps.

In the meantime it's probably easier to learn Inkscape's quirks and just work around them for now. I've been using Inkscape as a professional designer for over 7 years now, and once you get the hang of it, it's not so bad. A lot of bugs have been fixed since I first started using it, and lots of new features added. Mostly I'm grateful for devs who have helped and continue to help solve problems, and help where I can, and for community members who help users and make videos on how to use Inkscape.

Your feedback also helps, so thanks for bringing it to our attention!

-C

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 10:27 K B, <kmb999@...155...> wrote:

...

Brynn/CR:

I agree with you 100%. I can still remember when I first used it; it was so frustrating! It did not preform like you think it would. I also was just trying to use the eraser, but it did not erase part of the image like I thought it would. If I had a lot of extra money, I would probably just start using Adobe's Illustrator. Ken

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:48 AM C R <cajhne@...155...> wrote:

...

The problem is there is no agreed upon solution. But I think Inkscape should never draw an invisible object anyway.

Particularly,

1. If both fill and stroke are set to none, Inkscape should resort to

the Inkscape default setting of the bezier tool, which is black and white without dashed lines. Drawing an invisible shape is an error.

2. If the user modifies the line width, and the line is set to

"none", Inkscape should set the colour of the line to the Inkscape default : black.

I think this is a better solution than setting the default behaviour of Inkscape to a bad workflow - users should not be getting used to having to change the colour of the line and stroke each and every time they draw something. It is not intuitive because when you draw in real life you pick up a pen which is the colour you want and draw with it until you are done, then choose another colour when you want a different one.

-C

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 07:59 K B, <kmb999@...155...> wrote:

> Hi, Brynn: > Thank you for the Link about the Bug fix. Since Inkscape is free, > maybe the creators > are not very motivated to fix everything about it ? > > If it were a high price program like Adobe Illustrator, there would > have enough money to > pay programmers to fix it and make it better. > > Ken > > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:47 PM brynn <brynn@...3089...> wrote: > >> Some developers may remember a message I posted to the mailing >> lists some time >> ago, maybe a year or 2 ago, asking to have at least some of the >> tools set for >> Own Style (by default) rather than Last Used, to prevent this kind >> of utter >> confusion among new users. >> >> At first, on the mailing list, some developers sort of hijacked it >> into their >> own different project. >> >> But ultimately (in a bug report) one developer suggested a >> reasonable solution. >> See this bug report: >> https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777 >> >> If anyone else (developers) could chime in on that solution, >> perhaps we could >> get it coded into one of the next new versions, and prevent this >> type of >> headache for new users? >> >> Thank you very much, >> brynn >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: K B >> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:30 PM >> To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net >> Subject: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating >> >> >> All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle. (white >> background >> with white inside the circle). >> >> But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little squares. >> Two squares >> are on the rectangle and the other two are outside. So, I go into: >> Edit, >> Preferences and the Circle it not even listed under Shapes! Crazy. >> >> Does anybody know what I should do? >> >> Thank you. >> >> Ken >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Inkscape-user mailing list >> Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot >> _______________________________________________ >> Inkscape-user mailing list >> Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > _______________________________________________ > Inkscape-user mailing list > Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user >

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I rekon, in the case of true neophytes (not converts from other apps), there is little in the way of expectations. That presents the opportunity to set expectations with gentle guidance. It is quite common for first-run to provide guidance with user opt-out. We regularly see this in downloaded applications as well as rollout of web-based upgrades. (e.g. "Take the tour of the new... ...or skip. ")

Conversely, developers bring an extensive range of expectations, and those can make what might be insignificant to the layman, infuriating to the developer. (Much like the squeak of car's suspension to an auto mechanic?)

As for reloading the preferences.xml, I rarely do this if working for myself, but I'll always do this before teaching an Inkscape class as well as reload the preferences on the machines in the classroom, so Instructor and student machines are in unison.

Best, TD

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 10:17 PM <doctormo@...155...> wrote:

On Thu, 2018-08-30 at 21:04 -0400, Tyler Durden wrote:

...

I have read through a dozens of requests for help with invisible objects, and not one nooB indicated that they had gone through the tutorials in the help menu (or even the first tutorial). This suggests that users who have actually gone through the tutorials are not having these types of issues.

I'm an Inkscape developer and I get frustrated when I try and draw shapes and lines and they're invisible. It's infuriating to have styles flow over from one document to another and I suspect that if we ran it as a UX battery of tests, we'd be able to see user's not expecting this kind of behaviour.

There's just a lot of problems with the way we save styles. Currently all my text has a -2 char spacing and -10 line spacing. Lord only knows how it got into that state, but it's not clear at all how to put it back except by killing the preferences with fire.

Martin,

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Logos by Nick would not be the first tutorials I would suggest for a new user. Here's a page full of links to tutorials, organized by skill level: https://forum.inkscapecommunity.com/index.php

If you do use Nicks tutorials, please remember that the tool at the top of the tool box it NOT "the arrow tool". It is the "Selection tool"!

All best, bryrnn

-----Original Message----- From: K B Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 1:28 PM To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

Victor: Thank you! I did not know about the Logos by Nick videos.

Ken

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:59 AM Victor Westmann <victor.westmann@...155...> wrote:

Hi ken,

Inkscape it is really amazing and can do a ton of things... you just have to take some time to learn it.

I would say that watching the Channel "Logos by Nick" on youtube is a really good start.

He teaches things from begin to end and teaches a lot of cool stuff.

Wish you all the best,

--Victor Westmann

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:53 AM, K B <kmb999@...155...> wrote:

C R: I guess I was looking to do some real simple basic stuff and came into a very robust program with many bells and whistles that made it more complicated and harder to learn. Wished they had a "Lite version" so I could get up and running right away. I am not a professional illustrator, just want to create fairly simple Line Designs.

Ken

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:42 AM C R <cajhne@...155...> wrote:

We are working hard to make it better and easier and more intuitive to use. You can certainly help our efforts by donation to the project - every little bit helps.

In the meantime it's probably easier to learn Inkscape's quirks and just work around them for now. I've been using Inkscape as a professional designer for over 7 years now, and once you get the hang of it, it's not so bad. A lot of bugs have been fixed since I first started using it, and lots of new features added. Mostly I'm grateful for devs who have helped and continue to help solve problems, and help where I can, and for community members who help users and make videos on how to use Inkscape.

Your feedback also helps, so thanks for bringing it to our attention!

-C

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 10:27 K B, <kmb999@...155...> wrote:

Brynn/CR:

I agree with you 100%. I can still remember when I first used it; it was so frustrating! It did not preform like you think it would. I also was just trying to use the eraser, but it did not erase part of the image like I thought it would. If I had a lot of extra money, I would probably just start using Adobe's Illustrator. Ken

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:48 AM C R <cajhne@...155...> wrote:

The problem is there is no agreed upon solution. But I think Inkscape should never draw an invisible object anyway.

Particularly,

1. If both fill and stroke are set to none, Inkscape should resort to the Inkscape default setting of the bezier tool, which is black and white without dashed lines. Drawing an invisible shape is an error.

2. If the user modifies the line width, and the line is set to "none", Inkscape should set the colour of the line to the Inkscape default : black.

I think this is a better solution than setting the default behaviour of Inkscape to a bad workflow - users should not be getting used to having to change the colour of the line and stroke each and every time they draw something. It is not intuitive because when you draw in real life you pick up a pen which is the colour you want and draw with it until you are done, then choose another colour when you want a different one.

-C

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 07:59 K B, <kmb999@...155...> wrote:

Hi, Brynn: Thank you for the Link about the Bug fix. Since Inkscape is free, maybe the creators are not very motivated to fix everything about it ?

If it were a high price program like Adobe Illustrator, there would have enough money to pay programmers to fix it and make it better.

Ken

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:47 PM brynn <brynn@...3089...> wrote: Some developers may remember a message I posted to the mailing lists some time ago, maybe a year or 2 ago, asking to have at least some of the tools set for Own Style (by default) rather than Last Used, to prevent this kind of utter confusion among new users.

At first, on the mailing list, some developers sort of hijacked it into their own different project.

But ultimately (in a bug report) one developer suggested a reasonable solution. See this bug report: https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777

If anyone else (developers) could chime in on that solution, perhaps we could get it coded into one of the next new versions, and prevent this type of headache for new users?

Thank you very much, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: K B Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:30 PM To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle. (white background with white inside the circle).

But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little squares. Two squares are on the rectangle and the other two are outside. So, I go into: Edit, Preferences and the Circle it not even listed under Shapes! Crazy.

Does anybody know what I should do?

Thank you.

Ken

+1 for "the Book of Inkscape", even if slightly outdated (published in 2009). Regards, Ari Constâncio

A seg, 3/09/2018, 18:10, Dwain Alford <rteest53@...155...> escreveu:

kb, no starch press sells the book, "the book of inkscape, the definitive gude to the free graphics editor" by dmitry kirsanov. he is a core inkscape developer, author and graphic designer, specializing in website and logo design.

here's a review. https://wordpress.com/post/wdalford.wordpress.com/5

cheers, dwain

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:53 PM, K B <kmb999@...155...> wrote:

...

C R: I guess I was looking to do some real simple basic stuff and came into a very robust program with many bells and whistles that made it more complicated and harder to learn. Wished they had a "Lite version" so I could get up and running right away. I am not a professional illustrator, just want to create fairly simple Line Designs.

Ken

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:42 AM C R <cajhne@...155...> wrote:

...

We are working hard to make it better and easier and more intuitive to use. You can certainly help our efforts by donation to the project - every little bit helps.

In the meantime it's probably easier to learn Inkscape's quirks and just work around them for now. I've been using Inkscape as a professional designer for over 7 years now, and once you get the hang of it, it's not so bad. A lot of bugs have been fixed since I first started using it, and lots of new features added. Mostly I'm grateful for devs who have helped and continue to help solve problems, and help where I can, and for community members who help users and make videos on how to use Inkscape.

Your feedback also helps, so thanks for bringing it to our attention!

-C

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 10:27 K B, <kmb999@...155...> wrote:

...

Brynn/CR:

I agree with you 100%. I can still remember when I first used it; it was so frustrating! It did not preform like you think it would. I also was just trying to use the eraser, but it did not erase part of the image like I thought it would. If I had a lot of extra money, I would probably just start using Adobe's Illustrator. Ken

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:48 AM C R <cajhne@...155...> wrote:

...

The problem is there is no agreed upon solution. But I think Inkscape should never draw an invisible object anyway.

Particularly,

1. If both fill and stroke are set to none, Inkscape should resort to

the Inkscape default setting of the bezier tool, which is black and white without dashed lines. Drawing an invisible shape is an error.

2. If the user modifies the line width, and the line is set to "none",

Inkscape should set the colour of the line to the Inkscape default : black.

I think this is a better solution than setting the default behaviour of Inkscape to a bad workflow - users should not be getting used to having to change the colour of the line and stroke each and every time they draw something. It is not intuitive because when you draw in real life you pick up a pen which is the colour you want and draw with it until you are done, then choose another colour when you want a different one.

-C

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 07:59 K B, <kmb999@...155...> wrote:

...

Hi, Brynn: Thank you for the Link about the Bug fix. Since Inkscape is free, maybe the creators are not very motivated to fix everything about it ?

If it were a high price program like Adobe Illustrator, there would have enough money to pay programmers to fix it and make it better.

Ken

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:47 PM brynn <brynn@...3089...> wrote:

> Some developers may remember a message I posted to the mailing lists > some time > ago, maybe a year or 2 ago, asking to have at least some of the > tools set for > Own Style (by default) rather than Last Used, to prevent this kind > of utter > confusion among new users. > > At first, on the mailing list, some developers sort of hijacked it > into their > own different project. > > But ultimately (in a bug report) one developer suggested a > reasonable solution. > See this bug report: > https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777 > > If anyone else (developers) could chime in on that solution, perhaps > we could > get it coded into one of the next new versions, and prevent this > type of > headache for new users? > > Thank you very much, > brynn > > -----Original Message----- > From: K B > Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:30 PM > To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating > > > All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle. (white > background > with white inside the circle). > > But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little squares. > Two squares > are on the rectangle and the other two are outside. So, I go into: > Edit, > Preferences and the Circle it not even listed under Shapes! Crazy. > > Does anybody know what I should do? > > Thank you. > > Ken > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Inkscape-user mailing list > Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > _______________________________________________ > Inkscape-user mailing list > Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user >

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Martin: No, never used it. I just assumed since it costs a lot of money it would be a lot better. :o) Ken

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 5:44 AM <doctormo@...155...> wrote:

On Thu, 2018-08-30 at 02:26 -0700, K B wrote:

...

If I had a lot of extra money, I would probably just start using Adobe's Illustrator.

All software has issues, Adobe Illustrator included.

Have you used Illustrator before? Were you trained on it?

We find people who come from Corel Draw have an easier time with Inkscape's interface and people from Illustrator have a harder time.

Martin,

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FWIW I quite like the proposal in the bug report Brynn linked to, whereby a third option other than "last used style" or "tool's own style" is available. As I understand it, the third mode would behave like "tool's own style" when a file is first opened or a new document created, then switch to behaving like "last used style" during the course of editing. This has the advantage of starting each session from a known state, but also tracking changes to the state throughout the course of a session.

It won't stop people getting into a situation where they accidentally create invisible objects, but it will make it more likely that the default newbie reaction of "quit and restart the program" would get them back to a (perceived) working state.

Regards,

Mark

...

1. If both fill and stroke are set to none, Inkscape should resort to

the Inkscape default setting of the bezier tool, which is black and white without dashed lines. Drawing an invisible shape is an error.

2. If the user modifies the line width, and the line is set to "none",>

Inkscape should set the colour of the line to the Inkscape default : black.

1. CR, how would users create invisible objects that are needed, then?

(e.g. for alignment, or for text-on-path etc.?)

One would not. The user would never need to draw a shape they can neither see nor select. One would use a regular old visible object and do the inadvisable thing of making them without fill and stroke after the fact, which makes them not only completely hidden, but non selectable either.

For alignment, it's better to have visible shapes on a separate layer called "alignment" and hide the alignment shape layer when you do not want it visible. This makes it much more useful because them you can easily unhide and reselect shapes later. For one-off alignment, just delete she shape after using it for alignment, or use the shape to guides function.

There are other ways to do this too (lots), and none of them involve drawing invisible shapes.

2. One could have multiple objects selected and be changing their line

width, and then suddenly some get a black contour... Imagine having a group, for example, with stroked and unstroked objects.

Not sure what this is saying. :) Changing shape properties with a group selected is another inadvisable thing to do, as it often doesn't work at all, or works not as expected (ever try to change the gradient on a shape, and it's just not working no matter what you do, only to find that its the groups gradient you are changing? Yea, no. Not good practice, and asking for trouble in Inkscape's current state.

I'd prefer keeping as is / having a noob mode that enables these kinds of helps / or putting the stroke style dialog and the stroke color dialog in a way that one can clearly see that there's no color assigned, when changing the stroke width (I always found it annoying that those are separate...).

Yes, that's sort of where the conversation ended last time. Its one of my to do list items to re-think the colour fill/stroke indicators to include helpful things that let the user know what's going on without having to call up the fill/stroke dialogue. Please correct if wrong, but I think thats what Brynn is referring to as "derailing", but it isn't. It's just part of a good wholistic solution which we have not sorted out yet.

-C

Maren

...

I think this is a better solution than setting the default behaviour of Inkscape to a bad workflow - users should not be getting used to having to change the colour of the line and stroke each and every time they draw something. It is not intuitive because when you draw in real life you pick up a pen which is the colour you want and draw with it until you are done, then choose another colour when you want a different one.

-C

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 07:59 K B, <kmb999@...155... mailto:kmb999@...155...> wrote:

Hi, Brynn:
Thank you for the Link about the Bug fix.  Since Inkscape is free,
maybe the creators
are not very motivated to fix everything about  it ?

If it were a high price program like Adobe Illustrator, there would
have enough money to
pay programmers to fix it and make it better.

Ken

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:47 PM brynn <brynn@...3089...
<mailto:brynn@...3089...>> wrote:

    Some developers may remember a message I posted to the mailing
    lists some time
    ago, maybe a year or 2 ago, asking to have at least some of the
    tools set for
    Own Style (by default) rather than Last Used, to prevent this
    kind of utter
    confusion among new users.

    At first, on the mailing list, some developers sort of hijacked
    it into their
    own different project.

    But ultimately (in a bug report) one developer suggested a
    reasonable solution.
    See this bug report:
    https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777

    If anyone else (developers) could chime in on that solution,
    perhaps we could
    get it coded into one of the next new versions, and prevent this
    type of
    headache for new users?

    Thank you very much,
    brynn

    -----Original Message-----
    From: K B
    Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:30 PM
    To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net
    <mailto:inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net>
    Subject: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating


    All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle.
    (white background
    with white inside the circle).

    But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little
    squares.  Two squares
    are on the rectangle and the other two are outside.  So, I go
    into: Edit,
    Preferences and the Circle it not even listed under Shapes!

Crazy.

...

    Does anybody know what I should do?

    Thank you.

    Ken

---

...

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    engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot





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    <mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net>
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    <mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net>
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Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net
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• I think I'll demo what I need for alignment on the hackfest, then you

can give advice that is more suited to the real case (these don't work, esp. not if you're dealing with clones or symbols). I now understand that you're restricting this suggestion to *drawing* invisible objects (vs. creating them, or allowing them in the document) - so that's probably fine with most people :)

Please do. I'm sure there's a lot we can learn from eachother. :)

It can't ever catch all the cases, though. Layers? Groups? Too much blur? A clip or mask? Other objects above in a different layer? There are so many of those that cause drawing invisible objects, and Inkscape doesn't help with determining the cause (btw. opacity at 0 is the most frequent cause, esp. as there is a bug about the opacity indicator field in the current stable version, after that comes 'fill alpha at 0'. 'no stroke, no fill' is a lot rarer, in my experience).

I'm sure we can catch some or most of these. I still maintain it's an error to draw a shape with no fill and no stroke, regardless of the reason ... with the possible exception of masking or clipping. I don't see how groups would be a problem unless the group were set to 0% opacity... another thing whic is inadvisable for all the same reasons. :) Regardless, if the user hits escape twice, it exits out of any groups etc. We should make sure that at least in this condition, where nothing else is interfering, the user is able to draw visible shapes effectively without having to tweak anything to see what they are drawing. :)

• It might be inadvisable, but it's quick and a way that is currently

available to change the line width of a line drawing (like a simple cartoon). I wasn't talking about gradients, and also not about shape properties.

A better method is to enter the group, select all, and adjust the line-width there. Being able to set the stroke, but not stroke gradient, or fill but not fill gradient on a group is inconsistent behaviour and needs to be fixed one way or the other - either the group is treated like selecting all its contents, or the group needs to be treated like a separate shape. Right now its both, and is confusing and inconsistent UX.

I just don't expect Inkscape to add a stroke when I change the line width - I understand that it might help new users, but it's also illogical.

Currently, if the user adjusts the line width and there's no stroke, the value is thrown away entirely. That's absolutely apalling UX. :) If the user is adjusting the stroke width, its not at all unreasonable to give them a line to adjust the width of. What's illogical is the current behaviour, which is instantly tossing away the value that they entered - that makes precisely no sense at all. Throwing away user entered data is not acceptable UX. :)

Turning one knob should only change that knob's value, not anything else. I find /that/ confusing. It also may become quite annoying to people who do animations and other scripting stuff, and who might need 'none' lines with a certain width, for example... And now don't say "They can just remove it again" :-)

There is no such thing as a "none" line with a width. Try it - Set the line to none on a shape and try to adjust the width of the stroke. Annoying isn't it? :)

...

Yes, that's sort of where the conversation ended last time. Its one of my to do list items to re-think the colour fill/stroke indicators to include helpful things that let the user know what's going on without having to call up the fill/stroke dialogue.

• Sounds good!

...

Please correct if wrong, but I think thats what Brynn is referring to as "derailing", but it isn't. It's just part of a good wholistic solution which we have not sorted out yet.

• Thanks for sharing your ideas!

Sure thing. Looking forward to seeing you at the hackfest. :)

-C

Maren

...

-C

Maren

> I think this is a better solution than setting the default
behaviour of
> Inkscape to a bad workflow - users should not be getting used to
having
> to change the colour of the line and stroke each and every time

they

...

> draw something. It is not intuitive because when you draw in real

life

...

> you pick up a pen which is the colour you want and draw with it

until

...

> you are done, then choose another colour when you want a different
one.
>
>
> -C
>
> On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 07:59 K B, <kmb999@...155...
<mailto:kmb999@...155...>
> <mailto:kmb999@...155... <mailto:kmb999@...155...>>> wrote:
>
>     Hi, Brynn:
>     Thank you for the Link about the Bug fix.  Since Inkscape is

free,

...

>     maybe the creators
>     are not very motivated to fix everything about  it ?
>
>     If it were a high price program like Adobe Illustrator, there
would
>     have enough money to
>     pay programmers to fix it and make it better.
>
>     Ken
>
>     On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:47 PM brynn <brynn@...3089...
<mailto:brynn@...3089...>
>     <mailto:brynn@...3089... <mailto:brynn@...3089...>>> wrote:
>
>         Some developers may remember a message I posted to the

mailing

...

>         lists some time
>         ago, maybe a year or 2 ago, asking to have at least some
of the
>         tools set for
>         Own Style (by default) rather than Last Used, to prevent

this

...

>         kind of utter
>         confusion among new users.
>
>         At first, on the mailing list, some developers sort of
hijacked
>         it into their
>         own different project.
>
>         But ultimately (in a bug report) one developer suggested a
>         reasonable solution.
>         See this bug report:
>         https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777
>
>         If anyone else (developers) could chime in on that

solution,

...

>         perhaps we could
>         get it coded into one of the next new versions, and
prevent this
>         type of
>         headache for new users?
>
>         Thank you very much,
>         brynn
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From: K B
>         Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:30 PM
>         To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net
<mailto:inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net>
>         <mailto:inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net
<mailto:inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net>>
>         Subject: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely

frustrating

...

>
>
>         All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line

Circle.

...

>         (white background
>         with white inside the circle).
>
>         But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little
>         squares.  Two squares
>         are on the rectangle and the other two are outside.  So, I

go

...

>         into: Edit,
>         Preferences and the Circle it not even listed under
Shapes!   Crazy.
>
>         Does anybody know what I should do?
>
>         Thank you.
>
>         Ken
>
>
>
>
>
>

---

...

>         Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
most
>         engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!

http://sdm.link/slashdot

...

>
>
>
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         Inkscape-user mailing list
>         Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net
<mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net>
>         <mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net
<mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net>>
>         https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
>
>
>

---

...

>         Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
most
>         engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!

http://sdm.link/slashdot

...

>         _______________________________________________
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<mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net>
>         <mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net
<mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net>>
>         https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
>
>

---

...

>     Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>     engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>

http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________

...

>     Inkscape-user mailing list
>     Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net
<mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net>
>     <mailto:Inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net
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>     https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
>
>
>
>

---

...

> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>
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Guys,

To see whatever object you have on Inkscape canvas, doesn't matter if invisible or not, just go to "Object" > "Objects...". All of the objects will be there.

I was the one that requested this feature way and was REALLY glad this was implemented! Extremely handy feature.

Just like the Blender panel with all of the objects present in the Blender viewports.

;-)

--Victor Westmann

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 3:17 PM, Maren Hachmann <maren@...3112...> wrote:

Am 30.08.2018 um 23:01 schrieb C R:

...

It can't ever catch all the cases, though. Layers? Groups? Too much
blur? A clip or mask? Other objects above in a different layer? There
are so many of those that cause drawing invisible objects, and

Inkscape

...

doesn't help with determining the cause (btw. opacity at 0 is the

most

...

frequent cause, esp. as there is a bug about the opacity indicator

field

...

in the current stable version, after that comes 'fill alpha at 0'.

'no

...

stroke, no fill' is a lot rarer, in my experience).

I'm sure we can catch some or most of these. I still maintain it's an error to draw a shape with no fill and no stroke, regardless of the reason ... with the possible exception of masking or clipping. I don't see how groups would be a problem unless the group were set to 0% opacity...

• Happens, unfortunately. And people don't notice they are in one when

they try to draw something.

...

another thing whic is inadvisable for all the same reasons. :) Regardless, if the user hits escape twice, it exits out of any groups etc. We should make sure that at least in this condition, where nothing else is interfering, the user is able to draw visible shapes effectively without having to tweak anything to see what they are drawing. :)

- It might be inadvisable, but it's quick and a way that is currently
available to change the line width of a line drawing (like a simple
cartoon). I wasn't talking about gradients, and also not about shape
properties.

A better method is to enter the group, select all, and adjust the line-width there. Being able to set the stroke, but not stroke gradient, or fill but not fill gradient on a group is inconsistent behaviour and needs to be fixed one way or the other - either the group is treated like selecting all its contents, or the group needs to be treated like a separate shape. Right now its both, and is confusing and inconsistent UX.

• I can set the fill and stroke gradient for a group just fine (in both

master and 0.92.x), what are the cases in which this doesn't work?

Your suggested change can make some actions take a lot longer, because one needs to select only objects that have a stroke in a group, to change their stroke width.

...

I just don't expect Inkscape to add a stroke when I change the line
width - I understand that it might help new users, but it's also
illogical.

Currently, if the user adjusts the line width and there's no stroke, the value is thrown away entirely. That's absolutely apalling UX. :)

• It doesn't do that for me in 0.92.x, which I routinely use. But the

behavior is new in master - and I just noticed someone removed the stroke width indicator in the lower left corner! Why was that removed? I use it so often for quick adjustments.

I think these are bugs. This can't be intentional...

Maren

---

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Invisible shapes are occassionally needed. For example, text on path. Another example, custom stripe pattern.

However, the problem is new users. They find that they can make invisible objects, so they do. Then they forget that they did. Then they can't draw anything anymore.

I still like Patrick's suggestion in the bug report (https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777) It helps in only a certain situation, and does not impair accidentally in other situations.

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 5:03 PM To: Inkscape User Community Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

Or don't use invisible objects. I think thats still the better solution. They are not needed for anything, and having to sort through potentially thousands of objects to find the invisible ones, is so so very not worth it. :)

PS- easier way to see invisible objects is View > Display Mode > Outline imho, this is also so very not worth it.

Don't use invisible shapes, people. It's bad, mkay? ;) -C

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:39 PM Victor Westmann <victor.westmann@...155...> wrote:

Guys,

To see whatever object you have on Inkscape canvas, doesn't matter if invisible or not, just go to "Object" > "Objects...". All of the objects will be there.

I was the one that requested this feature way and was REALLY glad this was implemented! Extremely handy feature.

Just like the Blender panel with all of the objects present in the Blender viewports.

;-)

--Victor Westmann

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 3:17 PM, Maren Hachmann <maren@...3112...> wrote: Am 30.08.2018 um 23:01 schrieb C R:

It can't ever catch all the cases, though. Layers? Groups? Too much
blur? A clip or mask? Other objects above in a different layer? There
are so many of those that cause drawing invisible objects, and Inkscape
doesn't help with determining the cause (btw. opacity at 0 is the most
frequent cause, esp. as there is a bug about the opacity indicator field
in the current stable version, after that comes 'fill alpha at 0'. 'no
stroke, no fill' is a lot rarer, in my experience).

I'm sure we can catch some or most of these. I still maintain it's an error to draw a shape with no fill and no stroke, regardless of the reason ... with the possible exception of masking or clipping. I don't see how groups would be a problem unless the group were set to 0% opacity...

- Happens, unfortunately. And people don't notice they are in one when they try to draw something.

another thing whic is inadvisable for all the same reasons. :) Regardless, if the user hits escape twice, it exits out of any groups etc. We should make sure that at least in this condition, where nothing else is interfering, the user is able to draw visible shapes effectively without having to tweak anything to see what they are drawing. :)

- It might be inadvisable, but it's quick and a way that is currently
available to change the line width of a line drawing (like a simple
cartoon). I wasn't talking about gradients, and also not about shape
properties.

A better method is to enter the group, select all, and adjust the line-width there. Being able to set the stroke, but not stroke gradient, or fill but not fill gradient on a group is inconsistent behaviour and needs to be fixed one way or the other - either the group is treated like selecting all its contents, or the group needs to be treated like a separate shape. Right now its both, and is confusing and inconsistent UX.

- I can set the fill and stroke gradient for a group just fine (in both master and 0.92.x), what are the cases in which this doesn't work?

Your suggested change can make some actions take a lot longer, because one needs to select only objects that have a stroke in a group, to change their stroke width.

I just don't expect Inkscape to add a stroke when I change the line
width - I understand that it might help new users, but it's also
illogical.

Currently, if the user adjusts the line width and there's no stroke, the value is thrown away entirely. That's absolutely apalling UX. :)

- It doesn't do that for me in 0.92.x, which I routinely use. But the behavior is new in master - and I just noticed someone removed the stroke width indicator in the lower left corner! Why was that removed? I use it so often for quick adjustments.

I think these are bugs. This can't be intentional...

Maren

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...

A better solution is to revert to a default value only if there is no

stroke or fill specified...<<

Upon longer consideration, I agree tools should not allow invisible drawing.

Thinkin out loud: If using the last style is preferred, but the last style was no F/S, maybe the fallback value should be the "Tool's own style" when a new tool is selected (but keeping "last style" in cases where fill or stroke was assigned to other than none). In the case where the tool has no "own style" set, a 1uu stroke could be assigned.

Having consistent style availability might reduce confusion... It's a puzzle to me why users can assign fill/stroke to a selected tool before drawing using swatches in the palette, but not with the Fill/Stroke dialog... nor can a user assign the stroke width at the palette before drawing.

FWIW, all the programs listed below allow the creation of invisible objects: Adobe Illustrator Corel Draw Affinity Designer Inkscape Scribus LibreOffice Draw SK1

I'm not saying this is good, but that I haven't found any vector illustration programs that don't.

TD

On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 5:55 AM C R <cajhne@...155...> wrote:

It is not necessary to make invisible shapes to use text on path. In fact it's not a good idea to do that because then the user can not easily select the shape for rotation. Though I think there is quite a bit wrong with the text on path implementation in the first place.

The solution should not require new users to learn/deal with a bad workflow just to prevent a single problem.

A better solution is to revert to a default value only if there is no stroke or fill specified. This is because it is always an error to draw invisible shapes. It's arguable whether it's a good idea to hide shapes by giving them no fill and no stroke, after they are drawn, but it is *always* an error to draw a new shape with no fill and stroke.

On Sun, 2 Sep 2018, 01:07 brynn, <brynn@...3089...> wrote:

...

Invisible shapes are occassionally needed. For example, text on path. Another example, custom stripe pattern.

However, the problem is new users. They find that they can make invisible objects, so they do. Then they forget that they did. Then they can't draw anything anymore.

I still like Patrick's suggestion in the bug report (https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777) It helps in only a certain situation, and does not impair accidentally in other situations.

All best, brynn

-----Original Message----- From: C R Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 5:03 PM To: Inkscape User Community Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

Or don't use invisible objects. I think thats still the better solution. They are not needed for anything, and having to sort through potentially thousands of objects to find the invisible ones, is so so very not worth it. :)

PS- easier way to see invisible objects is View > Display Mode > Outline imho, this is also so very not worth it.

Don't use invisible shapes, people. It's bad, mkay? ;) -C

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:39 PM Victor Westmann < victor.westmann@...155...> wrote:

Guys,

To see whatever object you have on Inkscape canvas, doesn't matter if invisible or not, just go to "Object" > "Objects...". All of the objects will be there.

I was the one that requested this feature way and was REALLY glad this was implemented! Extremely handy feature.

Just like the Blender panel with all of the objects present in the Blender viewports.

;-)

--Victor Westmann

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 3:17 PM, Maren Hachmann <maren@...3112...> wrote: Am 30.08.2018 um 23:01 schrieb C R:

...

It can't ever catch all the cases, though. Layers? Groups? Too much
blur? A clip or mask? Other objects above in a different layer?

There

...

are so many of those that cause drawing invisible objects, and

Inkscape

...

doesn't help with determining the cause (btw. opacity at 0 is the

most

...

frequent cause, esp. as there is a bug about the opacity indicator

field

...

in the current stable version, after that comes 'fill alpha at 0'.

'no

...

stroke, no fill' is a lot rarer, in my experience).

I'm sure we can catch some or most of these. I still maintain it's an error to draw a shape with no fill and no stroke, regardless of the reason ... with the possible exception of masking or clipping. I don't see how groups would be a problem unless the group were set to 0% opacity...

• Happens, unfortunately. And people don't notice they are in one when

they try to draw something.

...

another thing whic is inadvisable for all the same reasons. :) Regardless, if the user hits escape twice, it exits out of any groups etc. We should make sure that at least in this condition, where nothing else is interfering, the user is able to draw visible shapes effectively without having to tweak anything to see what they are drawing. :)

- It might be inadvisable, but it's quick and a way that is

currently

...

available to change the line width of a line drawing (like a simple
cartoon). I wasn't talking about gradients, and also not about shape
properties.

A better method is to enter the group, select all, and adjust the line-width there. Being able to set the stroke, but not stroke gradient, or fill but not fill gradient on a group is inconsistent behaviour and needs to be fixed one way or the other - either the group is treated like selecting all its contents, or the group needs to be treated like a separate shape. Right now its both, and is confusing and inconsistent

UX.

• I can set the fill and stroke gradient for a group just fine (in both

master and 0.92.x), what are the cases in which this doesn't work?

Your suggested change can make some actions take a lot longer, because one needs to select only objects that have a stroke in a group, to change their stroke width.

...

I just don't expect Inkscape to add a stroke when I change the line
width - I understand that it might help new users, but it's also
illogical.

Currently, if the user adjusts the line width and there's no stroke, the value is thrown away entirely. That's absolutely apalling UX. :)

• It doesn't do that for me in 0.92.x, which I routinely use. But the

behavior is new in master - and I just noticed someone removed the stroke width indicator in the lower left corner! Why was that removed? I use it so often for quick adjustments.

I think these are bugs. This can't be intentional...

Maren

---

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When we re-do the fill and stroke indicators, I'm going to add in a stroke and fill history suggestion, I think defaulting to the last used visible style in that history is what will be expected in most cases, and potentially the most useful thing for Inkscape to do. Starting a new file, the default style for the tool should be used, because there is no history yet. Same with opening a saved file. Add to this a spin button with pop up of stroke/fill history, it should be very easy for folks to get back to the stroke and fill they want.

More on this after the Hackfest.

-C

On Mon, 10 Sep 2018, 11:56 Mark Crutch, <markc@...2744...> wrote:

I often push the boundaries of Inkscape and SVG, in order to hide Easter eggs in my comics, or when researching my Full Circle Magazine tutorials. But even I can't think of a time when I've ever intentionally *drawn* an invisible object.

There are plenty of times when I've drawn an object and then intentionally made it invisible (e.g. for text on a path or, most recently, when creating a SMIL animation path for my next tutorial), but I always draw them as visible objects first.

There are too many ways that an object could be "invisible" to catch all cases, but a simple rule of thumb might be that if both the fill and stroke are set to "none", have an alpha value of zero, or the object's opacity is zero, that the tool's default style is used. Combined with the earlier proposal about reverting to the tool's own style on start-up, this would lead to the following behaviour:

1. On starting Inkscape, creating a new image, or loading an existing one,

all tools are set to "tool's own style". 2) While working on a document, "last used style" is used (unless the prefs are set to always use "tool's own style"). 3) When a drawing tool is selected and the drawn object would be invisible (based on the heuristics above, and perhaps some others), the "last used style" is modified to match the "tool's own style".

It still wouldn't catch all cases - consider an alpha that's set close to, but not quite zero - but I think an approach like this would help new users whilst not particularly getting in the way of experienced users.

Mark

---

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There's a bug report for avoiding new users making invisible objects because of the last used style. I shared it in my first message in this thread. This is that report:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777

However, I've gotten a bit lost in the technical discussions, so I'm not sure if the topic is still on this same solution as proposed in the above report. So fwiw :-)

brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 4:05 AM To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

This suggestion sounds reasonable to me.

Mark, do we already have a bug report for it, where this can be laid out in detail?

Maren

Am 10.09.2018 um 11:56 schrieb Mark Crutch:

I often push the boundaries of Inkscape and SVG, in order to hide Easter eggs in my comics, or when researching my Full Circle Magazine tutorials. But even I can't think of a time when I've ever intentionally *drawn* an invisible object.

There are plenty of times when I've drawn an object and then intentionally made it invisible (e.g. for text on a path or, most recently, when creating a SMIL animation path for my next tutorial), but I always draw them as visible objects first.

There are too many ways that an object could be "invisible" to catch all cases, but a simple rule of thumb might be that if both the fill and stroke are set to "none", have an alpha value of zero, or the object's opacity is zero, that the tool's default style is used. Combined with the earlier proposal about reverting to the tool's own style on start-up, this would lead to the following behaviour:

1. On starting Inkscape, creating a new image, or loading an existing

one, all tools are set to "tool's own style". 2) While working on a document, "last used style" is used (unless the prefs are set to always use "tool's own style"). 3) When a drawing tool is selected and the drawn object would be invisible (based on the heuristics above, and perhaps some others), the "last used style" is modified to match the "tool's own style".

It still wouldn't catch all cases - consider an alpha that's set close to, but not quite zero - but I think an approach like this would help new users whilst not particularly getting in the way of experienced users.

Mark

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I don't think the "wordiness" is a problem, personally. But if you think it is, you could always make a concise comment to summarize everything, including your additional idea.

Or of course, you're welcome to make a whole new report if you like.

brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Mark Crutch Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 5:55 AM To: Inkscape User Community Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

It's essentially Patrick's suggestion from the bug report Brynn provided, but with the addition of a third "rule" that says what to do if an object is about to be drawn in a way that would render it invisible. The third rule could be added to the existing bug report, although that one is already a bit "wordy", so perhaps it might be worth opening a new issue with this entire proposal stated succinctly, then linking the original bug to the new one.

Mark

On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 12:20 PM, brynn <brynn@...3089...> wrote: There's a bug report for avoiding new users making invisible objects because of the last used style. I shared it in my first message in this thread. This is that report:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777

However, I've gotten a bit lost in the technical discussions, so I'm not sure if the topic is still on this same solution as proposed in the above report. So fwiw :-)

brynn

-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 4:05 AM To: inkscape-user@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

This suggestion sounds reasonable to me.

Mark, do we already have a bug report for it, where this can be laid out in detail?

Maren

Am 10.09.2018 um 11:56 schrieb Mark Crutch: I often push the boundaries of Inkscape and SVG, in order to hide Easter eggs in my comics, or when researching my Full Circle Magazine tutorials. But even I can't think of a time when I've ever intentionally *drawn* an invisible object.

There are plenty of times when I've drawn an object and then intentionally made it invisible (e.g. for text on a path or, most recently, when creating a SMIL animation path for my next tutorial), but I always draw them as visible objects first.

There are too many ways that an object could be "invisible" to catch all cases, but a simple rule of thumb might be that if both the fill and stroke are set to "none", have an alpha value of zero, or the object's opacity is zero, that the tool's default style is used. Combined with the earlier proposal about reverting to the tool's own style on start-up, this would lead to the following behaviour:

1) On starting Inkscape, creating a new image, or loading an existing one, all tools are set to "tool's own style". 2) While working on a document, "last used style" is used (unless the prefs are set to always use "tool's own style"). 3) When a drawing tool is selected and the drawn object would be invisible (based on the heuristics above, and perhaps some others), the "last used style" is modified to match the "tool's own style".

It still wouldn't catch all cases - consider an alpha that's set close to, but not quite zero - but I think an approach like this would help new users whilst not particularly getting in the way of experienced users.

Mark

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On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 09:52:42 +0100 Mark Crutch <markc@...2744...> wrote:

Speaking as a software developer myself, I can say that wordiness in bug reports, although not a "problem" as such, can sometimes act as a deterrent. It's the same reason that "me too" comments on bug reports are discouraged. Generally it's a lot easier for a developer to get to work on an issue that succinctly describes the nature of the problem, and the proposed remedy, rather than one that requires reading through a longer discussion, possibly having to pick out relevant parts from multiple comments.

Mark, tell them about "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way" by Eric Raymond and Rick Moen. Every English speaker in the world should read it.

http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

SteveT

Steve Litt September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 4:53 AM Mark Crutch <markc@...2744...> wrote:

Speaking as a software developer myself, I can say that wordiness in bug

reports, although not a "problem" as such, can sometimes act as a deterrent. It's the same reason that "me too" comments on bug reports are discouraged. Generally it's a lot easier for a developer to get to work on an issue that succinctly describes the nature of the problem, and the proposed remedy, rather than one that requires reading through a longer discussion, possibly having to pick out relevant parts from multiple comments.

Aside: Although I can be guilty of the wordiness, the issue I have is not so often with bug reports, but mailing lists where every message contains the entire history of the thread quintuply quoted, including 20 footers about how to subscribe / unsubscribe / etc. to the point that it resembles some fancy free-verse poetry. This is what threaded archives are good for. Take time to erase -- particularly duplicate footers.

On Thu, 2018-08-30 at 23:55 +0100, C R wrote:

Tested this in 0.92.3, which is the only version of Inkscape which currently works on Ubuntu 18.04 sadly. :(

I have Ubuntu 18.04, is the currently working part related to the icon size issue?

Otherwise I've been running trunk without issue. (except for that one)

Martin,