- Inkscape Devel - Inkscape Mailman

Google Summer of Code projects
by Bryce Harrington 31 Aug '05

31 Aug '05

Hi all, The Google Summer of Code projects are due to wrap up by September 1st. We've been quite thrilled at the progress made from the SOC students, but as they say, all things must come to an end. We've not received direction from Google about the next steps, which is kind of weird... I have expected we'd see some directions by now. Possibly we'll hear something tomorrow? In any case, based on what we've been told in the past, we expect that we're going to need to go through a review phase where the mentors check the student's work and decide whether it is acceptable. I think each mentor will have his own set of criteria to judge from, but there are some expectations that I suspect will be weighed heavily on: * Has the code been checked into Inkscape CVS? * Does the code function well enough that people can at least test it out? * Has the developer participated with other inkscape developers to ensure that bugs are fixed, requested changes made, etc.? * If the developer has "bitten off too much to chew", have they triaged the requirements and implemented an adequate subset? Of course, if the code implements 100% of what was mentioned in the original proposal, that's even better. ;-) But as long as it meets most of the requirements and shows that the participant has been successful at learning Open Source, I would think it would be acceptable. Bryce

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build report /inkscape-20050829-2120
by Bryce Harrington 31 Aug '05

31 Aug '05

= Analysis Report for inkscape = Platform Unpack Config Install WRNS ERRS ------------------------------------------------------------------------ debian x86 0 0 2 5 28 Test Status Score Info ------------------------------------------------------------------------ sut-1 ?? == Errors == attributes.cpp:34: error: syntax error before `<<' token attributes.cpp:37: error: syntax error before `>>' token connector-context.cpp:1195: error: syntax error before `<<' token connector-context.cpp:1199: error: syntax error before `if' connector-context.cpp:1199: error: ISO C++ forbids declaration of `__r' with no connector-context.cpp:1199: error: redefinition of `int __r' connector-context.cpp:1199: error: `gboolean __r' previously declared here connector-context.cpp:1199: error: syntax error before `}' token connector-context.cpp:1212: error: `inkscape_active_desktop' undeclared (first connector-context.cpp:1212: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only connector-context.cpp:1230: error: `cc_item_is_shape' undeclared (first use connector-context.cpp:1249: error: syntax error before `>>' token connector-context.cpp:1256: error: `selection' was not declared in this scope connector-context.cpp:1258: error: syntax error before `if' connector-context.cpp:1269: error: redefinition of `GType __t' connector-context.cpp:1199: error: `GType __t' previously declared here connector-context.cpp:1269: error: redefinition of `gboolean __r' connector-context.cpp:1199: error: `int __r' previously declared here connector-context.cpp:1269: error: syntax error before `if' connector-context.cpp:1269: error: ISO C++ forbids declaration of `__r' with no connector-context.cpp:1269: error: redefinition of `int __r' connector-context.cpp:1269: error: `gboolean __r' previously declared here connector-context.cpp:1269: error: syntax error before `}' token connector-context.cpp:97: error: `void sp-item.cpp:324: error: syntax error before `<<' token widgets/toolbox.cpp:2993: error: `cc_selection_set_avoid' undeclared (first use widgets/toolbox.cpp:2993: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only widgets/toolbox.cpp:2999: error: `cc_selection_set_avoid' undeclared (first use == Warnings == display/canvas-arena.cpp:91: warning: invalid access to non-static data member display/canvas-arena.cpp:91: warning: (perhaps the `offsetof' macro was used display/sp-canvas.cpp:127: warning: invalid access to non-static data member ` display/sp-canvas.cpp:127: warning: (perhaps the `offsetof' macro was used libnrtype/Layout-TNG-Output.cpp:226: warning: enumeration value ` == Environment Summary ==

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] DXF export
by Matt Squires 31 Aug '05

31 Aug '05

DXF export is now possible... At my website (http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~squiresm/), that hopefully will not be needed much more, I have posted .inx and .sh files that will export to dxf using pstoedit. I found that dxf is already supported, there are a fair number of features that I haven't explored. The conversion seems to be ok. I also have more functionality in the dxf import. Layers are supported and I have turned linetypes back on. The linetype is a little buggy because it is defined in two places and I have tried to make a good decision about which definition takes precedence. I also fixed problems with bulges in plines and lwplines. The files are there for color conversion, but I haven't included the color yet in the SVG. I am open to people sending me their favorite dxf and then I test it against AutoCAD (there is a license at school) or if you test a file and you don't see what you want then let me know. Eric: Along those lines... you are right the projection of a tilted circle on a plane below should look elliptical. I will fix that sometime later. Matt > Generally, our policy is to provide at least one patch, and if good, > then we give you cvs...it is our primary policy. I will get a patch tomorrow when I have better facilities

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please test: svgslice as an extension
by Lee Braiden 31 Aug '05

31 Aug '05

Hi all, Now that 0.42 is done, I thought I'd send the extension version of svgslice for others to test and consider for inclusion. It's pretty basic: just saves marked sections of the image into separate PNG "slices", and generates a basic XHTML file that lists the slices. Most notably, no equivalent layout is done in the XHTML file, so that it looks like the original SVG drawing. Problem is, there are many ways to do that in CSS, and the most obvious way (absolute positioning) is probably not much use to people. I suspect it would lead to bad web pages, or just get in the way of proper hand-crafted layout, and people who want to use a WYSIWYG CSS editor to move them around easily can still do so. Note also, that the slices will be saved in Inkscape's current directory. If you load inkscape by double-clicking on an image in a project folder, and save the XHTML file in the same folder, then this is fine -- your startup directory will be that folder, and images will be right alongside the XHTML file. But if you start inkscape from your home directory on the command line, or from just running it via a menu entry, and then load and save a file in another location, the PNG slices will end up in your home directory (at least on unix; windows might save then in C: or "C:\Program Files\Inkscape", or something like that. At the moment, there's nothing I can do about that, since inkscape doesn't CD to the output directory before calling the extension, and doesn't seem to provide the extension with any idea of where it is actually saving stuff. Personally, I'd like to see that issue fixed for 0.43. But either way, it'll be good to hear if this works for others, if there are any bugs, etc. So please give it a test, and let me know :) Installation ============ Save both attached files in your inkscape extensions directory. If that directory is somewhere other than /usr/share/inkscape/extensions, then you'll need to edit the paths in svgslice.inx to reflect that. Obviously, this will have a different path on Windows. Maybe someone could edit the svgslice.inx file, and post it here for other windows users? Usage ===== * Draw something. * Create a layer called "slices". * Draw rectangles in this layer representing the areas you want to slice (note: it helps if you make the rectangles semi-transparent) * Optionally, name any/all slices by using the built-in XML editor to edit the "id" attributes of the rectangles. * Hide the slices layer. * Choose "Save as..." from the File menu. * Select "XHTML file with PNG slices" as the file type to use. * Enter a filename (e.g., "test.xhtml"), and save. Result ====== * You should have the test.xhtml file on your disk, alongside the PNG slices for each area of the drawing that you made a rectangle for. -- Lee Braiden http://www.DigitalUnleashed.com

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Follow up with Nuno
by Dan Ostrowski 31 Aug '05

31 Aug '05

Follow up with Nuno Pinheiro: > Im using 0.42, but i did not figured the correct way to use the > swatches, i can see them, but i cant "paste" a color in a gradient, > and also i don't know how to make a swatch, (but i can obviously > learn), and the feature im requesting is also useful for a lot of > other things, (such as creating a perfect gradient from one solid > object to an other solid object, setind qa color for an outline and > more.) regards, dan o

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releasing Clip Art Browser 0.4!!
by Greg Steffensen 30 Aug '05

30 Aug '05

Hey all, I'm releasing version 0.4 of the Clip Art Browser. This, of course, is the release of the browser thats meant to be the final product for the purposes of Google's Summer of Code. Grab it from http://download.berlios.de/ocalhelper/clipartbrowser-0.4.tar.gz Hopefully, installation is even simpler now. The indexing process for local clip art, which could be a bit confusing, has been integrated into the GUI, so that now, you really only have to extract and run. The README has been updated, but if you have trouble getting it to work, let me know. Ironically, the one feature that no longer works is, uh, working as an Inkscape extension. That should be very simple to do... it just need to figure out how to have the executable that Inkscape calls launch the browser as a separate process, but this has been surprisingly tricky in python. If people would like to put this in 0.43, I can get this fixed tonight if needed, but I assumed that it probbaly wouldn't be. I also figured that the effects menu isn't really the appropriate place for something like this, and we'd have to semi-hardcode it into some other menu later anyway (I think Jon mentioned something about this earlier). This isn't a final product, of course. I look forward to continuing to improve it, and hopefully getting more into the code of Inkscape proper over the coming months. Thanks to all the developers who provided feedback, and Bryce and Jon in particular. Also, java sucks. Greg

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inkscape:connector-avoid vs inkscape:avoid
by Peter Moulder 30 Aug '05

30 Aug '05

Some places in inkscape use inkscape:connector-avoid (attributes-test.cpp, and the spelling of SP_ATTR_CONNECTOR_AVOID), and some places use inkscape:avoid (sp_object_read_attr and sp_object_setAttribute). I think I prefer inkscape:connector-avoid. Or is it intended for the same attribute to be used for removing node-node overlaps? (Whether as a once-off operation, e.g. using Tim Dwyer's implementation, or the dynamic linear approximation stuff that njh & I did for UIST last year.) If so, then I'd go for inkscape:avoid, and change the enum to SP_ATTR_INKSCAPE_AVOID. pjrm.

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mjwybrow, bug in CVS with AMD64, 'Error: clock_t is not 4 bytes'
by Edwin de Jong 29 Aug '05

29 Aug '05

Hi mjwybrow, A small bug exists in the code of the file: libavoid/timer.cpp After running the code on an AMD64 system: Error: clock_t is not 4 bytes Aborted This snippet has a bug: if (sizeof(clock_t) != 4) { fprintf(stderr, "Error: clock_t is not 4 bytes\n"); abort(); } Its always a good idea to never compare a size_of with a constant (unless in things like configure scripts or with very lowlevel program code). I havnt read the rest of the file yet (so I dont know why you insist on having it 4 bytes), but it is obvious that such structures have different sizes on different architectures. If necessary, hop me an email and we can work this problem out via IRC (if you have not an 64-bit system available). Greets, Edwin de Jong

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Inkscape 0.43
by Bryce Harrington 29 Aug '05

29 Aug '05

Hi all, Last month we talked a bit about accelerating our releases a bit. Since it's been a tad over a month since the 0.42 release, and feels like now would be a good point to begin the 0.43 release process. Based on prior releases I expect it may take several weeks to a month to go through this release process. I'd like to propose that we target Sept 1st as our feature freeze point. Does anyone feel strongly that we should wait longer than this? Bryce

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GNOME Summit in Boston sat oct 8 - mon oct 10
by Jon Phillips 29 Aug '05

29 Aug '05

Are ther any Inkscape or OCAL hackers interested in participating and/or presenting at the GNOME Summit in Boston Sat. Oct. 8 - Mon. Oct 10? http://live.gnome.org/Boston2005 I don't think I can make this one, but it would be great if someone could go to this conf. and meet up with folks to discuss various endeavours. Trust me, this type of event is time well spent! If anyone would like help with an abstract, slides, or needs some encouragement, hit me up. Jon -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 jon@...235... http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: rejon@...896... IRC: rejon@...897... Inkscape (http://inkscape.org) Open Clip Art Library (www.openclipart.org)

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Announcing librsvg 2.11.1 aka 'Brownish paper bag'
by Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller 29 Aug '05

29 Aug '05

The librsvg team is happy to announce librsvg 2.11.1 librsvg is a SVG rendering library maintained by Dom Lachowicz and Caleb Moore and used among other places in the GNOME desktop. This release of librsvg contains a few critical fixes. It fixes the dpi API which mistakenly got broken in the 2.11.0 release. It also improves the pattern used to recognize svg files in the gdkpixbuf loader so that your desktop SVG files will once again work. More information on the librsvg homepage: http://librsvg.sf.net You can download librsvg from: http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/gnome/sources/librsvg/2.11/

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Requests/Suggestions from Artists.
by Dan Ostrowski 29 Aug '05

29 Aug '05

Hello all, A while back I emailed David Vignoni (Nuvola icon set fame) and told him about some new features in Inkscape. He emailed me back from aKadamy recently with this: > Hello Dan, > > I'm at aKademy and me (i'm the nuvola guy) and nuno pinheiro we are > working on a new full svg icon theme for kde. I'm still using > illustrator and he is using inkscape. Nuno is going to provide some > feedback since he's using inkscape really a lot and doing very nice > stuff with it. We hope oour feedback may help in some way your great > software. I guess he assumed I was on "the team" but I was just trying to spread the word about Inkscape. *shrug* Anyhow, Nuno emailed me too with this feedback: > Hi my name is Nuno Pinheiro, and i love inkscape :) ! > > Well one of the things we want to try to implement, is a color pallet, > to use it i have to make an text file that i recour every time i need > a specific colour, that i need in a specific point of an gradient. > so the feature i would really appreciate would be the collorpick on > the edit gradient layout. that is i think, a simple feature to add and > one that would have the most deep impact on the productivity side of > things. > > i have many more little features to ask but i will leave that to an > other time! > cheers I don't know if this is of any value to you, but Nuno will be helping David on the new KDE icon set, so he seems like a source of quality feedback. I've let them know that I passed their comments along, mentioned the swatches in 0.42, and let them know that hopefully someone more knowledgeable than myself would be contacting him. Hope this helps, Dan Ostrowski

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Inkscape still does not work on FC
by Artur Rataj 28 Aug '05

28 Aug '05

Hello! Static binary 42.0 did not work, the latest sources 42.2 compiled but did not work. *** glibc detected *** free(): invalid pointer: 0x09557d60 *** As for now, I can use some old versions and read about the latest Inkscape features on your site ;) Cheers, Artur

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Clip Art Browser 0.39
by Greg Steffensen 28 Aug '05

28 Aug '05

I'm releasing version 0.39 of the clip art browser. Naturally, this is an almost-ready snapshot of the next major release, 0.4. Installation works the same as with past releases, although I don't think Jon's very cool Makefile will work. The two big missing features that will be added for 0.4 are making the "Import Clip Art" gui (it requires threading, and pygtk threading always drives me nuts), and some kind of progress bar during the retrieval of large result sets. For this version, a ton of code was revamped, and the result is a significantly more usable and more extensible product (I think). The interface, in particular, was violently redone. http://sharelinux.org/?q=node/1 You'll have to index your clip art using the indexClipart.py script before using it. Also, for now, I wouldn't reccomend using the ocal_net module with it, simply for performance... once I have a progress dialog, that will be more doable. There's a ton of changes in here, most of which were inspired by the recent thread about the project on this mailing list (in particular, Nathan's xml category-hierarchy idea proved useful). Also, this version is significantly more independent of Inkscape. I'll provide more documentation soon, but check out the config file; you can now have it open up images in arbitrary programs that you specify, all cleanly integrated into the UI. Feedback, as always, is very welcome. I'll try to have 0.4 out by, oh say... Wednesday :). Greg

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] CVS compile broken
by Ralf Stephan 27 Aug '05

27 Aug '05

Hello, First, an explanation. Recent fowlups with my commits not compiling (although they do here) happened because my process here is not fully automatized and single files were not committed. No excuse. Thanks to David, cvs compiles again. I owe you one. Will close the automation gap. Sincerely, ralf

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] Getting involved
by Bryce Harrington 27 Aug '05

27 Aug '05

On Fri, Aug 26, 2005 at 07:59:53PM +0200, Ralf Stephan wrote: > Bryce, > SPViewWidget and SPView are now separate. Great! Thanks Ralf. Bryce

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glibc detected *** free(): invalid pointer:
by bulia byak 27 Aug '05

27 Aug '05

We have at least 3 bugs in the tracker with this crash on startup (just search the tracker for "glibc"). Does anyone know what's going on? Is this fixed in 42.1? -- bulia byak Inkscape. Draw Freely. http://www.inkscape.org

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virtual functions in GObjects
by MenTaLguY 27 Aug '05

27 Aug '05

You can't use virtual functions in GObjects. At all. Introducing a virtual function to a class changes the resulting object layout in a way that is wholly incompatible with GObject. If you need something virtual-like before a class hierarchy has been transitioned away from GObject, you _must_ use the normal GObject mechanisms for that (i.e. adding an entry to the GObjectClass-ish vtable and then writing a (non-virtual) wrapper method that calls explicitly through that function pointer). -mental

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CVS compile broken
by bulia byak 27 Aug '05

27 Aug '05

Current CVS can't link: libinkpre.a(interface.o)(.text+0x2315): In function `sp_create_window(SPViewWidget*, int)': /home/d/ink/inkscape/src/interface.cpp:128: undefined reference to `sp_view_widget_get_type()' libinkpre.a(interface.o)(.text+0x237f):/home/d/ink/inkscape/src/interface.cpp:132: undefined reference to `sp_view_widget_get_type()' libinkpre.a(slideshow.o)(.text+0xea): In function `sp_slideshow_event': /home/d/ink/inkscape/src/slideshow.cpp:71: undefined reference to `sp_view_widget_get_type()' libinkpre.a(svg-view.o)(.text+0x891): In function `sp_svg_view_widget_get_type()': /home/d/ink/inkscape/src/svg-view.cpp:315: undefined reference to `sp_view_widget_get_type()' libinkpre.a(svg-view.o)(.text+0x8dd): In function `sp_svg_view_widget_class_init': /home/d/ink/inkscape/src/svg-view.cpp:332: undefined reference to `sp_view_widget_get_type()' libinkpre.a(svg-view.o)(.text+0x8ed):/home/d/ink/inkscape/src/svg-view.cpp:334: more undefined references to `sp_view_widget_get_type()' follow libinkpre.a(svg-view.o)(.text+0xaa0): In function `sp_svg_view_widget_init': /home/d/ink/inkscape/src/svg-view.cpp:381: undefined reference to `sp_view_widget_set_view(SPViewWidget*, SPView*)' libinkpre.a(svg-view.o)(.text+0xb1d): In function `sp_svg_view_widget_size_request': /home/d/ink/inkscape/src/svg-view.cpp:406: undefined reference to `sp_view_widget_get_type()' libinkpre.a(svg-view.o)(.text+0xceb): In function `sp_svg_view_widget_size_allocate': /home/d/ink/inkscape/src/svg-view.cpp:450: undefined reference to `sp_view_widget_get_type()' libinkpre.a(svg-view.o)(.text+0xef5): In function `sp_svg_view_widget_new(SPDocument*)': /home/d/ink/inkscape/src/svg-view.cpp:482: undefined reference to `sp_view_widget_get_type()' widgets/libspwidgets.a(desktop-widget.o)(.text+0x79): In function `sp_desktop_widget_get_type()': widgets/desktop-widget.cpp:128: undefined reference to `sp_view_widget_get_type()' widgets/libspwidgets.a(desktop-widget.o)(.text+0x9b): In function `sp_desktop_widget_class_init': widgets/desktop-widget.cpp:139: undefined reference to `sp_view_widget_get_type()' widgets/libspwidgets.a(desktop-widget.o)(.text+0xe3c):widgets/desktop-widget.cpp:333: more undefined references to `sp_view_widget_get_type()' follow widgets/libspwidgets.a(desktop-widget.o)(.text+0x1d0d): In function `sp_desktop_widget_new(SPNamedView*)': widgets/desktop-widget.cpp:727: undefined reference to `sp_view_widget_set_view(SPViewWidget*, SPView*)' widgets/libspwidgets.a(desktop-widget.o)(.text+0x1e91):widgets/desktop-widget.cpp:752: undefined reference to `sp_view_widget_get_type()' widgets/libspwidgets.a(desktop-widget.o)(.text+0x2033): In function `sp_desktop_widget_realize': widgets/desktop-widget.cpp:409: undefined reference to `sp_view_widget_get_type()' widgets/libspwidgets.a(desktop-widget.o)(.text+0x205f):widgets/desktop-widget.cpp:410: undefined reference to `sp_view_widget_get_type()' collect2: ld returned 1 exit status make[2]: *** [inkscape] Error 1 -- bulia byak Inkscape. Draw Freely. http://www.inkscape.org

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Bugs in Stroke Dialog
by John Taber 27 Aug '05

27 Aug '05

On Inkscape 0.4.2.0, I've run across a few bugs with strokes: 1) With end markers, Left arrow is bigger than right arrow (assuming something like Arrow1Sstart, Arrow1Send) - seems to do this for large,medium,small arrows 2) The entry box for dash spacing will not accept any values 3) The combo popup for line end types gives different choices - sometimes large arrow is available, pick another marker, then large becomes available again. Plus there is often a large blank portion of the combo list.

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front page edit
by bulia byak 27 Aug '05

27 Aug '05

In the spirit of "patch first, ask later", I have edited the intro paragraphs at inkscape.org: added new features, removed mention of GTKmm (it's on hold, and in any case this is a too narrow technical aspect to deserve a front page mention), added more emphasis on usability and general availability (it's not for "open source community", it's for everyone!) and did a general copyedit. Feel free to change :) -- bulia byak Inkscape. Draw Freely. http://www.inkscape.org

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Build results for inkscape-20050826-1520
by Bryce Harrington 27 Aug '05

27 Aug '05

= Analysis Report for inkscape = Platform Unpack Config Build Install WRNS ERRS ------------------------------------------------------------------------ debian x86 0 0 0 0 5 0 Test Status Score Info ------------------------------------------------------------------------ sut-1 ?? == Errors == none == Warnings == display/canvas-arena.cpp:91: warning: invalid access to non-static data member display/canvas-arena.cpp:91: warning: (perhaps the `offsetof' macro was used display/sp-canvas.cpp:127: warning: invalid access to non-static data member ` display/sp-canvas.cpp:127: warning: (perhaps the `offsetof' macro was used libnrtype/Layout-TNG-Output.cpp:226: warning: enumeration value ` =

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wiki update
by Jon Phillips 26 Aug '05

26 Aug '05

UPDATE! So, sf.net is completely unsecure now for the web server to write data. So, I have a solution to move the wiki to fd.o and make it work there temporarily. Unfortunately, we are coming to the limits of using sf.net. We need to start thinking about where to move our project, as it is getting quite large and sf.net is too slow, not reliable for real world web-based needs, and we want svn. http://inkscape.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ChangingCvsProviders I will ping the list once the wiki change has happened. Jon -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 jon@...235... http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: rejon@...896... IRC: rejon@...897... Inkscape (http://inkscape.org) Open Clip Art Library (www.openclipart.org)

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Announcing librsvg 2.11 aka 'Actual codename censored'
by Christian Fredrik Kalager Schaller 26 Aug '05

26 Aug '05

The librsvg team is happy to announce librsvg 2.11 librsvg is a SVG rendering library maintained by Dom Lachowicz and Caleb Moore and used among other places in the GNOME desktop. This release of librsvg is the result of 6 months of development. Caleb Moore spent a lot of time reorganizing the code to enable adding DOM support to librsvg. This code reorganisation had a lot of other positive side effects too, like improved stability and consistency, and last but not least improved rendering speed. There is also a great host of rendering fixes by Caleb to things like gradient positioning, patterns, namespaces, inheritance, marker rendering and text rendering. Also in this release is better clip paths handling and handling of out of order references and other file references. Dom Lachowicz have worked on full support for conditionals and made vfs support work better in addition to merging patches and bugfixing. In addition to this we have a host of smaller changes including: 1. rsvg cannot handle a relative path (309234) - Josselin Mouette 2. librsvg tries to open files twice (309220) - Josselin Mouette 3. rsvg behavior keeps aspec ratio when only width or height (309233) Josselin Mouette 4. C89 compiler fix (308472) - Behdad Esfahbod 5. Various bugfixes - 303086, 302905, 170164, 304045, 171281, 273989, 308810, 309885 - Caleb Moore and Dom Lachowicz 6. crasher bug fix (169051) - Ed Catmur 7. Windows port - Tor Lillquist 8. leak fixes (306494) - Ryan Lortie A big thanks goes to the contributors to this release. More information on the librsvg homepage: http://librsvg.sf.net You can download librsvg from: http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/gnome/sources/librsvg/2.11/

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0.42.2 Announcement
by Ted Gould 26 Aug '05

26 Aug '05

Now that there are binaries for 0.42.2 do we want to make a more genearl announcement of it? Should we hide 0.42 in Sourceforge? --Ted

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