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RE: Inkscape minor changes I'd like before the next release (if acceptable)
by bulia byak 02 Feb '04

02 Feb '04

>On most of the keyboards I have seen the right Alt key is labelled AltGr >(which as far as I can remember is short for Alternative Graphic which is >a holdover from back in the days of machines like the Commodore 64 where >holding down AltGr and a letter would print a graphical symbol). > >I tried using them, lots of crashing >http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=887327&group_id=93… Thanks for reporting, that crash is now fixed in CVS. > > No. Arrows are for moving. Rotation is different and needs different >keys. > >I disagree (rotation is still moving and I think) using differnt keys is >unnecessary. No. It's a very different kind of moving. If only because moving has four directions and rotation only two (as I wrote you before). You cannot unambiguously map rotation directions to (some of the) four arrows. And finally, arrows are already so busy with different kinds of moving/panning that adding rotation to them would produce a total mess. Nobody will be able to remember those shortcuts. >If i can get a working build I will be sure to try using the keys you >proposed but using both Alt keys as you have suggested seems like it >would be quite awkward. It's a bit awkward physically, but it's very easy mentally. It's easy to understand the logic behind these shortcuts and therefore to remember them. Try to invent another system where you can scale/rotate both handles or any single one of them, with two different speeds. Without using left/right alt trick, these keys will likely occupy half of your keyboard and will be impossible to remember. > > Panning must not depend on whether there is a selection. > >I dont understand. Can you explain why? Because I may want to pan regardless of any selection, of course! > > >I'm thinking maybe also that you cannot have a meaningful 'rotate' when > > >you are in Node Edit mode (as opposed to the standard select mode) > > > > Yes I can. Select a node and press [ or ]. > >I alway think of the node as being the point specifically, you mean to >rotate the bezier spline (i think spline is the word I'm looking for, you >know the lines that go throught the node and that you can adjust to change >the curve). Not spline, but the control handles of the bezier attached to the node. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoi…

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] fullscreen
by bulia byak 02 Feb '04

02 Feb '04

>On Sat, 2004-01-31 at 14:11, Johan Ceuppens wrote: > > I've put in a ctrl-F11 shortcut. I'm not familiar with Illustrator, so >I've > > put in ctrl-shift-F11 to revert back. Is that ok ? > >Well, probably just having a single keybinding to toggle to/from >fullscreen would be fine. Agreed, I think just F11 to toggle fullscreen would be nice, and it will line up with F12 which hides/shows dialogs. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.ms…

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Inscape Status Jan 31, 2004
by Bryce Harrington 01 Feb '04

01 Feb '04

Project Status Saturday, January 31, 2004 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ We're currently in a pre-feature freeze mode, focusing on closing bugs and doing some other cleanups to ensure the upcoming 0.37 release is solid. A full feature freeze will occur shortly, and we anticipate the final release occuring before the next status report. Much of the effort the past two weeks have focused on bug fixes, minor feature enhancements, and other tweaks. Here's just a brief synopsis of some of the work lately: Attention has been put into the handling of icons, including some fixes for Win32. Further discussion over keyboard shortcuts has identified some improvement tweaks. Some documentation updates/rewrites have been done. A discussion about a remove/apply transformations has resulted in some good ideas and sparked some coding effort in that direction. We've temporarily disabled the 'Filters' menu, with the plan to reactivate it later when we've gotten it more useful. Some discussion on renaming the Dialogs menu has also occurred. A code style document has been drafted after much debate and haggling, and we're looking forward to applying our new rules on the codebase well into the future. A full screen mode has been added. SourceForge has been problematic the past couple weeks, with both CVS and email being either extremely slow, or unavailable entirely. We expect the mailing list problems to resolve themselves once the MyDoom virus has passed; the CVS issue appears to be more chronic so we are considering alternative providers and will be switching once a suitable one is found. We recognized a need for a tutorial, and after considering some of the more typical options like firing off the default HTML browser or tying in with platform-specific help systems, we hit on a novel idea - why not use Inkscape's SVG text subsystem directly, like is done with the About Inkscape dialog box? What better way to teach SVG than to present it in SVG directly? :-) This has inspired a *bunch* more ideas that we hope to see folks explore in the future. Statistics Nov 15 Nov 29 Dec 15 Dec 31 Jan 15 Jan 31 ========== ====== ====== ====== ====== ====== ====== Lifetime Rank on SourceForge: 4391 3676 2452 2444 1928 1945 (68.5%) (73.6%) (82.4%) (82.5%) (86.1%) (86.1%) Max Week's Rank on SourceForge: 62 37 27 22 321 335 (99.6%) (99.8%) (99.8%) (99.9%) (97.5%) (97.8%) Total SF Page Views * 50,000 86,000 107,600 126,500 158,000 Total SF Downloads * 1700 3640 4,751 5,735 7,300 Total Freshmeat URL Hits 746 1121 2237 2567 2,958 3,178 Total Freshmeat Subscriptions 16 19 28 30 33 34 Lines of Code in src/: 115,901 116,970 132,134 165,664 166,914 164,140 Code lines 100,549 132,458 133,150 130,557 Comment line 11,591 12,234 12,468 12,424 Blank 20,559 21.540 21,929 21,796 Lines of Docs in doc/: 1,135 2,100 2,225 2,615 3,068 3,505 Lines of content in website: 1,173 1,624 2,090 2,261 2,885 2,994 Size of the Inkscape wiki: 3,700 5,737 7,385 11,062 11,284 11,897 Minutes since last ChangeLog mod: 360 120 1260 42 6 4 Bugs open/total: 9/15 40/51 67/111 66/130 74/160 61/166 Features open/total: 18/18 23/24 40/45 103/115 104/120 108/124 Patches open/total: 1/ 6 5/20 6/25 4/32 4/32 3/33 CVS Commits (as per inkscape-cvs): 481 963 * 1580 * 2343 Inkscape-devel membership: 49 61 64 65 64 63 Inkscape-announce membership: 9 14 16 20 22 23 Inkscape-user membership: 0 11 * - Statistics unavailable

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] RE: Inkscape minor changes I'd like before the next release (if acceptable)
by Jonathan Phillips 01 Feb '04

01 Feb '04

Usually when you see caps from me, its because my hand hit the caps key on accident :) Cool man...Do you live in Chicago? Someone on our list lives in Chicago. I'm gonna be there in 2 weeks...fyi Jon On Sat, 2004-01-31 at 17:13, Alan Horkan wrote: > On Sat, 31 Jan 2004, Jonathan Phillips wrote: > > > Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 17:07:36 -0800 > > From: Jonathan Phillips <jon@...15...> > > To: Alan Horkan <horkana@...44...> > > Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] RE: Inkscape minor changes I'd like before > > the next release (if acceptable) > > > > Alan, > > > > I think our development crew value comments, suggestions and posts to > > the bug tracker. Please don't mistake my comments as against that, but > > rather as constructive-criticism for a debate that is in favor of the > > person who fixes the "engine," so to speak. > > > > We need developers of all skill-levels, and not just programmers. > > Sorry, I saw the All-Caps and my brain switched off temporarily and I > overreacted. > > If Inkscape wasn't so differnt from the GIMP and Dia in how it handles > it's shortcuts and I could get it to build I could probably with a little > difficulty provide patches for keybindings. > > It is difficult for me to convince developers I'm right at least in a > certain way. When confronted by the 'show me the attitude' all I can do > it politely state my case and try not to take it personally. > > I need to improve my 'building' skills if i want to get more of a chance > to prove my 'architecture' skills > > Thanks for the feedback. I do appreciate that you engage my arguements > and I sometimes overreact a little but I think I can safely put that down > to how difficult it can be to express oneself clearly using only the > written word. > > Sincerely > > Alan Horkan > http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ -- Jonathan Phillips <jon@...15...>

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Win32 path fix
by Bob Jamison 01 Feb '04

01 Feb '04

I added a fix to Win32 for Inkscape to load its resource files relative to the executable, from wherever Inkscape.exe is called. This is essential for calling Inkscape from other than the current directory, or double-clicking an icon. This is especially useful for associating ".svg" with Inkscape. If, for example, you used this Registry file (with the path name corrected for your box), you could double-click a .svg file and have Inkscape open it. Save it as inkscape.reg, and double-click it to add to the registry. The latest automated Win32 build has this enabled. I guess that in the future this Registry entry should be done by an installer. ======= SNIP ======= REGEDIT4 [HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\.svg] @="svgfile" [HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\svgfile] @="Scalable Vector Graphics File" [HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\svgfile\shell] [HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\svgfile\shell\edit] @="" [HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\svgfile\shell\edit\command] @="C:\\inkscape\\inkscape.exe \"%1\""

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RE: Inkscape minor changes I'd like before the next release (if acceptable)
by bulia byak 31 Jan '04

31 Jan '04

>I've been reading the KeyboardShortcutsToDo document in Wiki >http://inkscape.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?KeyboardShortcutsToDo > >You ask >::(two rotation directions ''times'' two rotation speeds ''plus'' two >radial movements) ''times'' two handles for each node ''equals'' 12 keys >or key combinations in total! >:I'm thinking about how to fit this into the keyboard in a more or less >elegant way that can be remembered. Suggestions welcome. > >I would venture a guess that a certain amount of context could be used to >reduce the requirements for so many unique keybindings. I think I managed to shape this quite well with [] <> with various modifiers. See the KeyboardShortcuts page (the ToDo needs updating). Try it on a real node path to get a feel. >I'm thinking we should be able to heavily overload the arrow keys. >Also my instinct is that treating Alt and AltGr differntly is something >that should be avoided if possible. I'm not sure what is AltGr, but left and right Alts or Ctrls are pretty convenient for rotating the two handles separately. Try it. >I remember you had some objections to when this was brought up >http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~horkana/inkscape/jasc-webdraw-tooltips.txt but I >cannot quite recall what they were. (Perhaps it was that you didn't like >that rotate clockwise was both Down Arrow and Right arrow and similarly Up >Arrow and Left arrow were anticlockwise.) I still think the shorcuts used >for this by Jasc Web aren't bad. No. Arrows are for moving. Rotation is different and needs different keys. >Inkscape already uses up and down arrows for Nudging, shift+arrow gives a >bigger nudge. Inkscape uses Ctrl+Arrows for some sort of >Panning/scrolling but I think this is a waste. Why? I use it all the time. It's very convenient. >I'm not sure if it is this >is a good keybinding for panning but it should not be used when there is a >selection. Panning must not depend on whether there is a selection. > When something is selected then Ctrl+Arrows could be used for >rotating it. No. Confusing. Panning keys always pan. Rotating keys always rotate. That's the way it should be. >When there is nothing selected (and because we know dont want to rotate >the whole canvas), we can still use Ctrl+Arrows for panning in this >context if that is what we really want to use those keys for. What you propose is a usability disaster. Accidental rotates when I intended to pan and vice versa will drive me crazy. >Although I'd normally try and avoid using the Alt key for much I do think >alt+arrows could be quite useful, if not instead of the keys you have >suggested then perhaps for skew/shearing. Alt+anything has the general meaning of moving slowly, one visible pixel per keypress. That's the way it works with arrows, [], and <>. I can't live without it. >I'm thinking maybe also that you cannot have a meaningful 'rotate' when >you are in Node Edit mode (as opposed to the standard select mode) Yes I can. Select a node and press [ or ]. >so we >can use these keybindings again for manipulating the nodes. Now that I >think about it Select and Node Edit need to be kept clearly seperated out >anyway, and I'm hoping this makes a whole huge amount of sense. >(Modes like in Vi can be nasty for users but we have them already and may >as well make the most if it) Those operations that are clearly and unambiguously applicable both to objects and to nodes, such as move or rotate, must apply to objects and nodes in selector and node tool respectively. That's just logical. >** ctrl-[, ctrl-] - scale 1/2 or 2 times the original Now it's ctrl-< and ctrl->. As I said, [ and ] are for rotating. >Unfortunately Adobe Illustrator uses them for >Bring to Front Shift+Ctrl+] >Brink Forward Ctrl+] >Send Backward Ctrl+[ >Send to Back Shift+Ctrl+[ Too bad :) I don't think we'll change that to conform to Illustrator because: 1) we already have established keys for back/forward and 2) [ and ] are convenient for rotate. So we'll leave this for the "Illustrator compatibility mode". >I'm conflicted by my sycophantic desire to pander to Adobe Illustrator >users and the desire to use the same keybindings as I used for Dia (which >if i recall correctly were the same as Visio, see below) and perhaps get >other Gnome application to try and use the same bindings consistantly. >Only by keybindings being consistant across applications do they become >significantly easier to learn and remember. > >Send to Back Ctrl+B >Send Backwards shift+ctrl+b >Bring to Front Ctrl+F >bring forwards shift+ctrl+f Ctrl-b, shift-ctrl-f are already occupied. Ctrl-f will be one day used for search (I hope). >I desperately want the Page Up and Page Down keys back so that they can be >used to move up and down the page as the Gods of User Interface Design >intended so I have been thinking about the possible shortcuts. No. In a text editor, the up/down direction is significantly different from left/right so it has additional keys (pgup/pgdn). Not so in a drawing program. Here we have four equally important directions, and they must be equally served by keys. That's why all moves and pans can only be done by arrows, because there are 4 of them. On the other hand, pgup/pgdn can later be used for navigating across "pages" or "layers" of an svg, but that's far away into the future. For now, I like pgup/dn as they are. >Whiel I'm at it I may as well mention that I really strongly want to >rename the Dialogs menu with a 'Tools' menu and make it consistant with >about a zillion pieces of Software instead of just a handful of ugly >software (Gimp, Cinepaint, Sodipodi, Dia). "Tools" is vague. "Dialogs" is exactly what this menu contains. I see no reason for a change. >Sorry if this mail makes little sense, it was written completely out of >order, I originally intended to mail it to the list and I really need to >get some sleep and get my damned project finished on time! I want to sleep too, so replying briefly :) >I found a PDF document that lists some of the shortcuts (keybindings) used >by Adobe Illustrator 7.0 >http://www.bsu.edu/web/ucspubs/pdf/other/crossprod.pdf See KeyboardProfiles - if you care about Illustrator, plan a profile as described on that page. I promise to implement loading keys from a file as soon as we have two complete profiles of different mainstream editors. >PPS I figure I must be doing something wrong or overlooking some detail >but I cant quite seem to get Inkscape (on windows) to import any Images. File > Import? _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.ms…

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RE: Inkscape minor changes I'd like before the next release (if acceptable)
by bulia byak 31 Jan '04

31 Jan '04

>Even though you can think of Inkscape of currently only having one page I >think having 'page up' and 'page down' do just that is best. (Even given >the importance of Layers in the GIMP I dont think they should be stealing >Page Up and Page Down either and that they should use a differnt >shortcut). None of the vector editors I know uses pgup/pgdn for panning canvas. It's just a foreign concept for a two-dimensional one-page canvas. How would you define the "page" to scroll if what you have before you is just one page? > > "Tools" is vague. "Dialogs" is exactly what this menu contains. I see no > > reason for a change. > >Consistancey with about a Zillion applications ... You can talk about consistency in naming when the functions are similar. What other apps call "tools" is different. E.g. Illustrator has a similar menu used to open various dialogs, but it's called View, not Tools. (And View is obviously more vague and confusing than Dialogs.) > > See KeyboardProfiles - if you care about Illustrator, plan a profile as > > described on that page. I promise to implement loading keys from a file >as > > soon as we have two complete profiles of different mainstream editors. > >I will still push for the defaults to be as much possible like Adobe >Illustrator or failing that another well established piece of professional >graphics software so that at least one large userbase will be able to >migrate relatively easily to Inkscape. You're welcome. Just don't forget to consult (and test) the current Inkscape shortcuts, and make sure your proposal does not infringe on (or gracefully resolves) other shortcuts - because by now, a lot of keys are already taken. >Lots of new and unique keybindings >is the worst of all worlds. Sorry but to me, lots of convenient shortcuts are what matters most, and their consistency with other apps is secondary. That's what keyboard profiles are for. (See Wiki.) Especially given that we now have quite a few shortcuts for which other apps have no equivalent at all. For example Illustrator cannot move by single pixel, cannot scale or rotate by keyboard, cannot edit nodes by keyboard - I find it very frustrating when I have to work in Illustrator. > > File > Import? > >That was among the things I tried but that didn't work. I will test. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.ms…

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] Re: default document
by bulia byak 31 Jan '04

31 Jan '04

>So what do you think then about just adding the keyboard shortcuts as >this type of tutorial, with the key graphics I created sometime ago. Where are these graphics? Can you send them to me? >NOTE: Basically, we could even have an "open template," where we could >have sets of template svgs of different documents where people could >select like--standard icon, or letter, or A4, or stationary, or a style Yes, but that's another matter. I'm now working on Help menu. >Hmmm...what do you recommend now for the keyboard shortcuts/manpage. Not sure about manpage (maybe we can live without it in the Help menu, now that we have a tutorial), but I'm working on shortcuts as an SVG reference sheet. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.ms…

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RE: More whinging about shortcuts and keybindings ;)
by bulia byak 31 Jan '04

31 Jan '04

>Is it part of the plan that the item "Dialogs, Tool Options" be merged >into the secondary toolbar? I think I recall it being mentioned. Yes. It's in the plans. > > > > See KeyboardProfiles - if you care about Illustrator, plan a profile >as > > > > described on that page. I promise to implement loading keys from a >file > > >as soon as we have two complete profiles of different mainstream >editors. > >If you clarify what exactly you mean by "complete profile" I might be able >to do something, I'm pretty sure the Adobe Illustrator documentation lists >all the keybindings. See http://inkscape.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?KeyboardProfiles, section "What is to be done". Basically you need to compile a list of keybindings with a classification of their applicability to Inkscape. >I would hope that you will remain flexible and not reject changes just >because Inkscape has been doing something a certain way before (of course >when Inkscape has been around longer I'd accept this arguement >occasionally). Sure :) >View, Grid #" is a bad keybinding for Americans. if i recall correctly ># is Shift+3 on an American keyboard. What's bad with it being easy to remember? Can you find any key that looks more like a grid than #? >Also the label should probably be >changed to Show Grid (and similarly Show Rulers and Show Scrollbars). Yes, but then it must be Show/Hide, which is bulky. The menu needs to be redone so that the labels are dynamic, e.g. showing "Show grid" when no grid and "Hide grid" otherwise. Until then, let it be just "Grid". >I'd also recommend avoiding single letter keybindings for most things >except the tools (but I wont be surprised if you dont think the >Function keys should be changed either). I don't know - that depends on the strength of your arguments :) >For similar reasons I'm not sure about the keybindings for >Next Zoom Shift+' >Prev Zoom ' Your proposal being? >(abbreviations definately not allowed!) You mean, in the menu? I think we can take an exception, Prev is easy to understand next to Next, and they line up nicely. >but I find the whole idea a bit odd, it is like a seperate undo history >for Zoom which is not something I've seen before. Xara has a "previous zoom" command which is very convenient. Unfortunately it only takes you back to previous zoom and not further, which is why I decided to carry the idea further and implement a complete zoom history. I now use it all the time. >Group and Ungroup use the shortcuts Ctrl+G and Ctrl+U respectively which >are reasonable. But given the shortage of avialable keys, the Gnome HIG, >and the keybindings used by Adobe Illustrator I would suggest >you consider changing it to Ctrl+Shift+G for Ungroup. This might make sense, if you propose a compelling function for Ctrl+U. Otherwise, why disrupt? Ctrl+Shift+G for Ungroup works already exactly as Ctrl+U. >The Gnome HIG recommends the principle of using the Shifted version of a >keybinding for the inverse or for related tasks. >http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/draft_hig_new/input-keyboard.ht… >"Use Shift-Ctrl-letter for functions that reverse or extend another >function. For example, Ctrl-Z and Shift-Ctrl-Z for Undo and Redo." We support exactly that. >Getting distracted again I notice Inkscape has "Clear All" which is >grouped beside select all and I mistakenly thought it meant clear >the selection i.e. "Select None". That's a good point. I think makes sense indeed to replace "clear all" with a "deselect" command. Adding that to TODO. > > > > File > Import? >Tried agian with a more recent build from today and I still cannot import >any images (tried jpegs png and bitmaps). Please submit a bug with detailed description. >For all my complaining I really do like Inkscape and I appreciate all the >work you all put into it. We sometimes forget to thank people for >all their great work so, "Thanks for the software". You're welcome :) _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/features&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin…

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gtk wheel
by Jonathan Phillips 31 Jan '04

31 Jan '04

I also make a motion to remove the GTK color that makes the fill/stroke palette to massive in the release. Agree? Disagree? Obviously, we will add back in once the custom gtk color wheel is finished. Jon -- Jonathan Phillips <jon@...15...>

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