Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] License for the new manual
by brynn
Yay! Glad to have that settled :-D
Thanks Maren!
-----Original Message-----
From: Maren Hachmann
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2017 4:37 PM
To: inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] License for the new manual
Update: I got a reply from Hinerangi, and she wrote:
"I'm OK to relicense it to whatever you guys need (I guess the original
author also needs to be OK, if translations are considered a derived
work...). "
So the 'Get started with Inkscape' book on flossmanualsfr.net is now
officially CC-By.
Maren
(The below licence request with the 'SA' was an inadvertant mistake... I
didn't want to determine or change the licence before an official
decision has been made. Fortunately, I got it right in the private mail
to her.)
Am 06.05.2017 um 00:03 schrieb Maren Hachmann:
> Am 05.05.2017 um 19:57 schrieb Sylvain Chiron:
>> Le 05/05/2017 à 16:18, Maren Hachmann a écrit :
>>> Merci! :D (was Hinerangi's consent required?)
>>
>> I think she translated the first four chapters, so I’d say yes.
>>
>> Here is offered the opportunity for her to oppose.
>
> - Actually, she would need to consent, not be given opportunity to oppose.
>
> Hinerangi, in case you haven't gotten the full info:
> We're asking you if you would be okay with the licence of your
> translated chapters in the linked book to be changed from GPL to CC-By-SA.
>
> This is so the book can become part of a new manual effort for Inkscape.
>
> Please let us know as soon as possible :)
>
> Thank you,
> Maren
>
>> https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/
>>
>> Regards,
>> --
>> Sylvain
>>
>
>
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>
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5 years, 8 months
questions, comments re FLOSS, for writing the new manual
by brynn
Hi Friends,
Reference this discussion about where is the best place to be writing
the new manual:
https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/message/35828210/
Hopefully Sylvain can answer some of these questions. But anyone who knows the
answers is fine with me. The first question I have about FLOSS, is why was the
English translation started on fr.fm.net instead of en.fr.net (my abbreviations,
not real domains)?
Can it be easily "switched" to the English side, without having to be
re-written? Hopefully I can soon answer that myself, as I learn how to use
FLOSS.
However, it's going to be a lot harder for me (using help from google/bing)
because all the prompts are in French. For example, there was a slight odessy
just getting reg'd because reg-ing on the en subdomain did not reg me for the fr
subdomain. Once I learn where everything is, I'll be fine. But I'll have to
have both subs open on different tabs, at the same time, for a while.
I see in the Introduction section, there are 4 chapters in French, but looks
like 6 in the English version. I'm sure there's a logical explanation. I'm
just curious.
Also, the next major section after Introduction, in French, it's The Toolbox,
and it goes down the menu: Selection, Node, Tweak, Zoom, etc. But the next
major section in English is Draw Geometric Shapes: Select tool (which doesn't
belong under Shape tools, actually), Shape tools, Rectangle / Square tool.
There must be a reason for this as well?
I was going to choose a section to test my idea of using google and bing to
translate enough to get an idea what the page is about. But I'm not sure what
the organization scheme is. Maybe it's simply planned to re-order the pages at
the end? Then it doesn't matter which one I choose?
Thanks for some insight :-)
brynn
5 years, 8 months
Re: [Inkscape-docs] License for the new manual
by Maren Hachmann
Merci! :D (was Hinerangi's consent required?)
Maren
Am 05.05.2017 um 16:13 schrieb C R:
> Thanks Sylvain!
>
> On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Sylvain Chiron <chironsylvain@...102...> wrote:
>> Le 05/05/2017 à 16:02, Maren Hachmann a écrit :
>>> - When exploring flossmanualsfr, I noticed there are two places where a
>>> licence can be indicated:
>>>
>>> 1. in the book's settings
>>> 2. in the book's contents
>>
>> Yes. I have made the change.
>> --
>> Sylvain
>
5 years, 8 months
Re: [Inkscape-docs] website moderation policy final
by brynn
> I'm still not able to come up with a better phrase, but either way I
think it's always better to have to delete some inappropriate images
than to discourage one motivated user who has something great to
contribute with unnecessarily restrictive wording.
I'm good with that. I'm good with the concensus :-)
If we find we're still getting random photos or other things because of that one
phrase, we can always change it again later.
brynn
-----Original Message-----
From: Eduard Braun
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2017 10:43 AM
To: brynn ; Inkscape-Devel ; Inkscape-Docs ; C R ; Maren Hachmann ; Martin Owens
; Sylvain Chiron
Subject: Re: website moderation policy final
Am 05.05.2017 um 18:04 schrieb brynn:
> C R said
>> Little thing, but "created for use with Inkscape" could cover things
> like just regular images... in fact it could cover just about
> anything, even things made with Adobe Illustrator. I'd simply cut that
> bit out.
>
> Hhmm.....yes, I see what you mean. My interpretation of that, is for things
> like extensions or filters. But maybe there's a better way to say it?
>
> What about "created to be installed in Inkscape"? Or maybe just "to be
> installed in Inkscape"? That would eliminate any kind of image. Any other
> suggestions out there? Eduard?
Actually I was thinking about this exact point when initially writing
the replacement text...
On the one hand it obviously *could* be interpreted as "just about
everything" but on the other hand common sense should make quite clear
what it *intends* to say (and in the worst case we still "reserve the
right to remove any content that does not seem appropriate" and can
always use it as a last resort).
I decided not to leave the phrase out for the reasons mentioned by
brynn. I also thought about things like symbol libraries (if they're
made well I'd not require them to be created in Inkscape) and other
high-quality graphic content (that would not necessarily be
"installed"). But it might also include content we do not even have on
our radar right now (i.e. a nifty little tool or shell script that can
be used along with Inkscape but is otherwise unrelated).
I'm still not able to come up with a better phrase, but either way I
think it's always better to have to delete some inappropriate images
than to discourage one motivated user who has something great to
contribute with unnecessarily restrictive wording.
5 years, 8 months
Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
by Maren Hachmann
Hi all,
oh, wow, I've just been offline for a couple of hours - wouldn't have
expected that, if finally someone gives the 'go' for a manual, there
would be such a huge echo (we've been discussing this on and off for a
/very/ long time already). That's just cool :D
Just some comments to various things that were mentioned:
@CR: I think Scribus is a great tool for making the kind of graphical,
polished, sellable, printable, book-with-columns-like structure which
was linked in that very first link. For something that is really nice to
look at, and is fun to read and touch.
I also think this is not the same as a manual, which should be quick to
browse, quick to grasp, with lots of interlinks, with a file format
suitable for version control (well, yes, Scribus is xml, I've been told,
so it would be /readable/ - but those diffs are really ugly), with
out-of-the-box automated generation of online versions of a manual - as
can be done with tools like sphinx/readthedocs, doctype, and other tools
specifically tailored for open source documentation + gitlab CI.
You can take a look at the link from Victor's message to the mailing
list, if you would like to know more:
https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/message/35773618/
Even the booktype server of flossmanuals works with automation.
Using one of those would also have the advantage that, once set up, this
system could be used for both developer as well as user documentation
(as Victor wrote in his post - and I agree with him).
As for the attribution, I think especially the book-like structure would
profit from it, as I believe that artists may be more likely to
contribute their drawings if those are - at least - credited to them.
Also, it would be good if things like the keyboard+mouse reference and
other stuff we already have could be included. It's faster that way.
Faster also means: quicker rewards. This is good if you want to have
many contributors. Also, crediting people for their work is just
something that makes them more willing to contribute (as stated above).
CC-By would lose that, after the first iteration, as far as my
understanding of the licence goes.
Some of the people involved in flossmanualsfr are also long-time
contributors to and developers of Inkscape, so that's the relation.
The other, English, outdated, manual that you linked to, has been
written by many of the 'old hands' in the Inkscape community - some of
whom have moved on, and some of whom are still involved.
@doctormo: "FLOSS Manuals utilise la licence libre GPL pour l'ensemble
de ses travaux." - translates to: all manuals on flossmanuals are under
the GPL (don't ask which version, doesn't say there on that page.
(https://www.flossmanualsfr.net/faq-floss-manuals-francophone/ch011_quest-...).
@Brynn: if you want to help with the translation of that 'intro' book,
you could, for example, make corresponding screenshots for it, of the
English version. You could also get an account on that site, and explain
to others who speak both French and English how it works, and what they
would need to do to join. Or write a news article asking for translators
who would like to help.
Also, you could add a 'Credits' page at the end, which seems to be
missing still.
And, of course, you can proofread and edit. Sylvain has already
translated quite a bit.
The NC licence is maybe a bit overprotective, but I'm all for crediting
and having a manual be available for anyone who needs it. I personally
wouldn't mind if someone prints and sells it and makes money with that.
As long as that is not the only source of the book/manual, this doesn't
cause me any worries.
I think google translate might cause more issues than solve them - but
it has been getting better... I personally find that correcting a badly
messed-up text which already gives me some 'scheme' tends to give worse
translations, than when there is no scaffolding. It's because the
machine translation is kind of giving the direction. It may be faster,
but the translation sounds less natural.
@jazzynico or Elisa: Can you tell us the specific flossmanuals licence?
GPLv2 or 3? Or, if not specified, do you know which version it would use
then, legally? Does Booktype use any kind of version control that is
compatible with git? What is the source file format?
@Miguel: yes, we're discussing those workarounds (and many others) on
the forums on a regular basis. It would certainly be cool if someone
could compile the 'Tips + Tricks' (sounds better than workarounds?) to
make up a separate section in the manual, or even a separate manual by
its own.
(sorry for the long post, there was a lot to reply to :D)
Maren
Am 29.04.2017 um 21:22 schrieb C R:
> Also this: http://write.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/
>
> On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 8:04 PM, C R <cajhne@...2...> wrote:
>>>> Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways,....
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I understand that. But I thought Victor was talking about a hardback
>>> book, like at the link he provided. That kind of book is hard to get
>>> published, unless you have some prior agreement with a publisher. At least
>>> that's my understanding.
>>
>> We can self-publish, but we'd have to order a thousand copies, which
>> would take some startup funds. I don't think hardback would be
>> necessary.
>> In fact, I don't imagine printing is necessary. We could render out a
>> nice illustration of the book, with "ebook" under it, and people can
>> enjoy the aesthetic without downing a bunch of trees to make physical
>> copies of the manual. Virtual copies have great things like
>> hyperlinks, and text search capabilities. So there are more benefits
>> to having a digital copy anyway.
>>
>>> Somewhere in this thread was some discussion about licensing. If this is to
>>> be a hardback book (old fashioned way of publishing) *to me* it makes more
>>> sense to carry a copyright.
>>
>> The only requirement for a published physical book is an isbn number
>> (for product catalog, and inventory purposes). The license of the
>> book, as I understand it, is left completely open to the authors. We
>> would not have this published by a company interested in owning the
>> copyright, of course.
>>
>>> As far as I understand, publishers take a cut
>>> of sales. And if it's a public domain content, there wouldn't be many
>>> sales. It seems like it would make it even harder to find a publisher.
>>
>> A publisher isn't necessary for this project, assuming the content is
>> what's important. If we want book sales out of this, that's the point
>> where it will become an issue.
>>
>>> I don't know, maybe I'm old and old fashioned. But the FLOSS manual, on the
>>> other hand, certainly should be either public domain, or CC-BY-NC-SA might
>>> be better. Whatever it needs to have, to allow the community to edit.
>>
>> All I can guarantee is that my contributions will be public domain. :)
>>
>>> This is probably a bad idea. But I'm trying to think outside the box. What
>>> if I (or other non-French-speaker) took one of the French pages, and sent it
>>> through the public google and/or bing translators. I know those are far
>>> from perfect. (Sooooo far!) But since I know Inkscape, it seems like it
>>> would give me enough of a clue what it's about, to be able to write it
>>> properly in English.
>>
>> Well, translation plus proof-reading is fine I'd think. It's not like
>> the subject matter would be alien to you. :) Fact is, you could easily
>> re-write from scratch the missing sections in English, then we would
>> be able to use it in our own "official" Inkscape manual too.
>>
>>> Then maybe the translators can proof read it, to make sure something
>>> important wasn't missed? Proof reading would seem to be much less
>>> time-consuming for them.
>>>
>>> Would that work??
>>>
>>> All best,
>>> brynn
>>
>>
>> As I understand it, the Inkscape Project has nothing to do with
>> flossmanuals, so perhaps it's beyond the scope of this project.
>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: C R
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 9:54 AM
>>> To: brynn
>>> Cc: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List ; Maren Hachmann ; Victor Westmann
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material?
>>> (targeting the moon)
>>>
>>>> I don't mean to slow anyone's roll here. But wouldn't it make more sense
>>>> to put
>>>> any kind of energy towards documentation into the much discussed, direly
>>>> needed,
>>>> user-focused, step by step manual? Rather than starting from scratch on a
>>>> whole
>>>> different kind of project?
>>>
>>>
>>> Yea, this actually makes a lot of sense as a first step.
>>>
>>>> There are many books out there already, which amount to a series of
>>>> tutorials.
>>>> It's not a bad thing. I just think this kind of project is better suited
>>>> for a
>>>> single author, or maybe a small team. And I think the project needs the
>>>> manual
>>>> much, more more than the community needs another book of tutorials.
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree. I think the book could be a lot of things in one. But I agree
>>> with finishing what we already have before starting something new.
>>>
>>>
>>>> As far as I understand, all that's needed is an English translation
>>>> of...well
>>>> can't find a link to the French version. Here's a link to whatever has
>>>> been
>>>> translated already:
>>>> https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/introduction/
>>>
>>>
>>> I can't help with translation, unfortunately. But I'd like to see this
>>> finished. So +1 for the suggestion.
>>>
>>>> Once we have the translation, we'll be off and running to update and
>>>> finish it!
>>>> By the way, is there anything those of us who can't translate, can do, to
>>>> help
>>>> the translators?
>>>
>>>
>>> I volunteer to help this effort in what ways are needed.
>>>
>>>> And won't such a new book of tutorials have to be published? A big
>>>> obstacle to
>>>> writing any book is getting it published. You almost have to have an
>>>> invitation
>>>> from a publisher to be certain a book will get published. Or publish it
>>>> yourself, which is not easy eitiher.
>>>
>>>
>>> Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways, opened
>>> in browsers, laptops, eReaders, or just printed out. We could sell
>>> printed copies along with other Inkscape stuff. Maybe copies signed by
>>> members of the project would be kinda cool. No idea what the market is
>>> for it, but the idea that we could do all of these at once is
>>> attractive, and why I recommend Scribus.
>>>
>>> -C
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just my opinion :-)
>>>>
>>>> brynn
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Maren Hachmann
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 4:01 PM
>>>> To: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material?
>>>> (targeting the moon)
>>>>
>>>> Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?
>>>>
>>>> The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There
>>>> are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as it
>>>> might be later on.
>>>>
>>>> Maren
>>>>
>>>>> Am 28.04.2017 um 16:14 schrieb Martin Owens:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's
>>>>>>> what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd
>>>>>>> like.
>>>>>>> It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack
>>>>>>> of time/hands involved.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably be a
>>>>>>> github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what
>>>>>>> needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, there
>>>>>> should be a button to join:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the
>>>>>> adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have something
>>>>>> "complete" but have something small produced.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best Regards, Martin Owens
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Inkscape-devel mailing list
>>>>>> Inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net
>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Inkscape-devel mailing list
>>>> Inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Inkscape-devel mailing list
>>>> Inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>>>
>>>
>
5 years, 8 months
License for the new manual
by brynn
Retitled - "License for the new manual" (was "Any chance we can make some
docs.....") Also copying in Sylvain, since he's been working on translation. I
know there's another translator, but I can't seem to open the manual today, to
look it up. So if someone knows who that is, please copy them in to this new
thread.
> We should sort out what license we will offer the new manual under as
a first step, before starting any work. We need to reach a consensus
before work can proceed.
Well, considering work has already started on the manual (the translating part),
we might be a little behind the 8 ball. But I agree that we need to nail down
the license asap.
Retitling this to start the discussion.
> Also, according to
https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/
This document is GPL v3.
I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other
content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is
unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.
Well that's the same license as Inkscape. How is it too restrictive?
For me, the main point is that it needs a license that will allow anyone to edit
it. We can't get stuck with an outdated manual and have no way to edit it (as a
community), ever again.
All best,
brynn
-----Original Message-----
From: C R
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 4:22 AM
To: brynn
Cc: Nicolas Dufour ; Maren Hachmann ; inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs
material? (targeting the moon)
Also, according to
https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/
This document is GPL v3.
I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other
content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is
unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.
We should sort out what license we will offer the new manual under as
a first step, before starting any work. We need to reach a consensus
before work can proceed.
-C
On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 11:14 AM, C R <cajhne@...2...> wrote:
> Is anyone discussing a copyrighted book or manual at this point? If
> so, let's not. It's Copyleft or Public Domain. No proprietary books or
> content should be included in official Inkscape documentation. We need
> to be able to freely revise, edit, distribute without the legal
> entanglements.
>
> -C
>
> On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 8:28 AM, brynn <brynn@...78...> wrote:
>>> - How does version control work for booktype?
>>
>>
>> This question will probably make more sense when you make the next post you
>> promised from a different message. I had asked why we were talking about
>> using gitlab and all that, if we were still focused on the FLOSS
>> translation/manual. And you said you had an idea to present that you didn't
>> have time at that moment.
>>
>> I can't really see a marriage of these 2 projects (free manual, copyrighted
>> book of tutorials). But I'm looking forward to hearing your proposal :-)
>>
>> All best,
>> brynn
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann
>> Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 1:28 PM
>> To: Nicolas Dufour ; brynn ; C R
>> Cc: inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs
>> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some
>> docs material? (targeting the moon)
>>
>>
>> Hi Nicolas :D,
>>
>> thank you!
>>
>> What I would like to know (and what is now buried deep in the email
>> stream) is:
>>
>> - How does version control work for booktype? Could it be combined with
>> a git repository, or does it use a fully independent system?
>> (I couldn't find a direct hint, maybe it's just using the django
>> database to keep track of changes/edits?)
>>
>> - What is the source file format of booktype? Markdown? (guessing from
>> the requirements for pip)
>>
>> Regards,
>> Maren
>>
>> Am 01.05.2017 um 21:08 schrieb Nicolas Dufour:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I'm just back from two weeks away, and as the thread is very long now
>>> I didn't find time to read everything. Sorry if I'm off-topic.
>>>
>>> Le Lundi 1 mai 2017 13h07, Maren Hachmann <maren@...68...> a
>>> écrit :
>>>>
>>>> I only wish Nicolas or Elisa could be here to give us some more
>>>> in-depth
>>>
>>>
>>>> info about their server's capabilities
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Not sure what you mean. Of course the Inkscape project can use the
>>> French FM server for the translation, but note that an English
>>> version also exists (http://write.flossmanuals.net/). It would
>>> probably be easier to work on the English server directly.
>>>
>>>
>>>> and their book's licencing.
>>>
>>>
>>> If I remember correctly, the GPLv2 was the first license that was
>>> chosen when the FM project was created about 10 years ago, and some
>>> books still use it. But the server allows users to choose a different
>>> license when creating a new book (CC, GPL, PD). As for the Inkscape
>>> book, I see it's under a GPLv3. I don't know if it can be changed
>>> (and how) or not. Elisa could probably give more details.
>>>
>>> Regards, -- Nicolas
>>>
>>
5 years, 8 months
Re: [Inkscape-docs] License for the new manual
by Elisa Godoy de Castro Guerra
Thanks for your reply.
In the french version, it's only one author.
https://fr.flossmanuals.net/initiation-inkscape/a-propos-de-ce-livre/
I have change the licence.
Regards,
2017-05-03 11:40 GMT+02:00 C R <cajhne@...2...>:
> Hi Elisa.
> Yes, CC-BY would be the most flexible. If you don't mind the contents
> used in other CC-BY publications, this is the best license that
> preserves credit for yourself and anyone else who has contributed.
>
> Please note, if there are other authors/contributors, you MUST get
> their permission before changing the license, and they must all agree
> to change it to CC-BY.
>
> Thanks very much for your help! We look forward to helping complete
> your very good document.
> -C
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 9:00 AM, Elisa Godoy de Castro Guerra
> <elisa.dcg@...2...> wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am the french author of this book.
> > I want this book open, so i can change de licence if we need.
> > Wich one would be safe ?
> >
> > cc-By ?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Elisa
> >
> > 2017-05-02 16:57 GMT+02:00 brynn <brynn@...78...>:
> >>
> >> Retitled - "License for the new manual" (was "Any chance we can make
> some
> >> docs.....") Also copying in Sylvain, since he's been working on
> >> translation. I
> >> know there's another translator, but I can't seem to open the manual
> >> today, to
> >> look it up. So if someone knows who that is, please copy them in to
> this
> >> new
> >> thread.
> >>
> >> > We should sort out what license we will offer the new manual under as
> >> a first step, before starting any work. We need to reach a consensus
> >> before work can proceed.
> >>
> >> Well, considering work has already started on the manual (the
> translating
> >> part),
> >> we might be a little behind the 8 ball. But I agree that we need to
> nail
> >> down
> >> the license asap.
> >>
> >> Retitling this to start the discussion.
> >>
> >> > Also, according to
> >> https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/
> >> This document is GPL v3.
> >> I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other
> >> content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is
> >> unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.
> >>
> >> Well that's the same license as Inkscape. How is it too restrictive?
> >>
> >> For me, the main point is that it needs a license that will allow anyone
> >> to edit
> >> it. We can't get stuck with an outdated manual and have no way to edit
> it
> >> (as a
> >> community), ever again.
> >>
> >> All best,
> >> brynn
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: C R
> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 4:22 AM
> >> To: brynn
> >> Cc: Nicolas Dufour ; Maren Hachmann ; inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs
> >> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make
> some
> >> docs
> >> material? (targeting the moon)
> >>
> >> Also, according to
> >> https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/
> >>
> >> This document is GPL v3.
> >> I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other
> >> content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is
> >> unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.
> >>
> >> We should sort out what license we will offer the new manual under as
> >> a first step, before starting any work. We need to reach a consensus
> >> before work can proceed.
> >>
> >> -C
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 11:14 AM, C R <cajhne@...2...> wrote:
> >> > Is anyone discussing a copyrighted book or manual at this point? If
> >> > so, let's not. It's Copyleft or Public Domain. No proprietary books or
> >> > content should be included in official Inkscape documentation. We need
> >> > to be able to freely revise, edit, distribute without the legal
> >> > entanglements.
> >> >
> >> > -C
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 8:28 AM, brynn <brynn@...78...> wrote:
> >> >>> - How does version control work for booktype?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> This question will probably make more sense when you make the next
> post
> >> >> you
> >> >> promised from a different message. I had asked why we were talking
> >> >> about
> >> >> using gitlab and all that, if we were still focused on the FLOSS
> >> >> translation/manual. And you said you had an idea to present that you
> >> >> didn't
> >> >> have time at that moment.
> >> >>
> >> >> I can't really see a marriage of these 2 projects (free manual,
> >> >> copyrighted
> >> >> book of tutorials). But I'm looking forward to hearing your proposal
> >> >> :-)
> >> >>
> >> >> All best,
> >> >> brynn
> >> >>
> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann
> >> >> Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 1:28 PM
> >> >> To: Nicolas Dufour ; brynn ; C R
> >> >> Cc: inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make
> >> >> some
> >> >> docs material? (targeting the moon)
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi Nicolas :D,
> >> >>
> >> >> thank you!
> >> >>
> >> >> What I would like to know (and what is now buried deep in the email
> >> >> stream) is:
> >> >>
> >> >> - How does version control work for booktype? Could it be combined
> with
> >> >> a git repository, or does it use a fully independent system?
> >> >> (I couldn't find a direct hint, maybe it's just using the django
> >> >> database to keep track of changes/edits?)
> >> >>
> >> >> - What is the source file format of booktype? Markdown? (guessing
> from
> >> >> the requirements for pip)
> >> >>
> >> >> Regards,
> >> >> Maren
> >> >>
> >> >> Am 01.05.2017 um 21:08 schrieb Nicolas Dufour:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Hi all,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I'm just back from two weeks away, and as the thread is very long
> now
> >> >>> I didn't find time to read everything. Sorry if I'm off-topic.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Le Lundi 1 mai 2017 13h07, Maren Hachmann <maren@...68...>
> a
> >> >>> écrit :
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I only wish Nicolas or Elisa could be here to give us some more
> >> >>>> in-depth
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> info about their server's capabilities
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Not sure what you mean. Of course the Inkscape project can use the
> >> >>> French FM server for the translation, but note that an English
> >> >>> version also exists (http://write.flossmanuals.net/). It would
> >> >>> probably be easier to work on the English server directly.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> and their book's licencing.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> If I remember correctly, the GPLv2 was the first license that was
> >> >>> chosen when the FM project was created about 10 years ago, and some
> >> >>> books still use it. But the server allows users to choose a
> different
> >> >>> license when creating a new book (CC, GPL, PD). As for the Inkscape
> >> >>> book, I see it's under a GPLv3. I don't know if it can be changed
> >> >>> (and how) or not. Elisa could probably give more details.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Regards, -- Nicolas
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Inkscape-docs mailing list
> >> Inkscape-docs(a)lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-docs
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Elisa de Castro Guerra
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
>
--
--
Elisa de Castro Guerra
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
5 years, 8 months
Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] License for the new manual
by Martin Owens
On Tue, 2017-05-02 at 20:19 +0100, C R wrote:
> but I'll bend.
Thanks CR. That's very gracious.
I'm counting the straw poll as:
CC-BY-SA - Martin, Maren, a bending CR
I'll commit us to a CC-BY-SA license by tomorrow unless some other
developers or docs contributors step in against.
Best Regards, Martin Owens
5 years, 8 months
Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
by brynn
I'm confused -- I missed a step somewhere.
Are we no longer talking about translating the French manual on FLOSS Manuals?
Or are you talking about something else entirely?
Sorry to be so simple-minded.
Thanks,
brynn
-----Original Message-----
From: C R
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2017 3:39 AM
To: Maren Hachmann
Cc: Victor Westmann ; inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs ; brynn
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material?
(targeting the moon)
I also think this is not the same as a manual, which should be quick to
browse, quick to grasp, with lots of interlinks, with a file format
suitable for version control (well, yes, Scribus is xml, I've been told,
so it would be /readable/ - but those diffs are really ugly), with
out-of-the-box automated generation of online versions of a manual - as
can be done with tools like sphinx/readthedocs, doctype, and other tools
Martin and I are thinking gitlab + markdown will suffice for the basis of
contribution, and we can worry about scribus and doc publishing later.
Also, it would be good if things like the keyboard+mouse reference and
other stuff we already have could be included.
Probably should use markdown code to identify key shortcuts in plain text. Makes
them easier to edit, diff, and provides an easy way to add new ones.
Also, crediting people for their work is just
something that makes them more willing to contribute (as stated above).
CC-By would lose that, after the first iteration, as far as my
understanding of the licence goes.
We get into the territory of having to edit each and every diagram or screen
capture. It's messy. I think a better credit would be to have a contributor page
for those who contribute the most. If that's insufficient credit, I think people
might be contributing for the wrong reasons.
Some of the people involved in flossmanualsfr are also long-time
contributors to and developers of Inkscape, so that's the relation.
But you see how the licensing gets in the way? We can't use any of it now.
People wanted credit more than they wanted to have the contents be reusable. GPL
is for software. People try to rewrite for content, but that's not what it's
for. Worse, it imposes more restrictions than CC-BY.
I think it's best to say something like: "Unless otherwise stated, all content
in this book is CC0, Public Domain." Then, those who require attribution can
include it in the caption below the graphics.
The NC licence is maybe a bit overprotective, but I'm all for crediting
and having a manual be available for anyone who needs it.
Yes, let's not do NC. The point of this is to get it into as many hands as
possible. People want a bit of money to handle printing and distribution, let
them. It's less work for the project and more free publicity.
-C
Maren
Am 29.04.2017 um 21:22 schrieb C R:
> Also this: http://write.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/
>
> On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 8:04 PM, C R <cajhne@...2...> wrote:
>>>> Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways,....
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I understand that. But I thought Victor was talking about a hardback
>>> book, like at the link he provided. That kind of book is hard to get
>>> published, unless you have some prior agreement with a publisher. At least
>>> that's my understanding.
>>
>> We can self-publish, but we'd have to order a thousand copies, which
>> would take some startup funds. I don't think hardback would be
>> necessary.
>> In fact, I don't imagine printing is necessary. We could render out a
>> nice illustration of the book, with "ebook" under it, and people can
>> enjoy the aesthetic without downing a bunch of trees to make physical
>> copies of the manual. Virtual copies have great things like
>> hyperlinks, and text search capabilities. So there are more benefits
>> to having a digital copy anyway.
>>
>>> Somewhere in this thread was some discussion about licensing. If this is to
>>> be a hardback book (old fashioned way of publishing) *to me* it makes more
>>> sense to carry a copyright.
>>
>> The only requirement for a published physical book is an isbn number
>> (for product catalog, and inventory purposes). The license of the
>> book, as I understand it, is left completely open to the authors. We
>> would not have this published by a company interested in owning the
>> copyright, of course.
>>
>>> As far as I understand, publishers take a cut
>>> of sales. And if it's a public domain content, there wouldn't be many
>>> sales. It seems like it would make it even harder to find a publisher.
>>
>> A publisher isn't necessary for this project, assuming the content is
>> what's important. If we want book sales out of this, that's the point
>> where it will become an issue.
>>
>>> I don't know, maybe I'm old and old fashioned. But the FLOSS manual, on the
>>> other hand, certainly should be either public domain, or CC-BY-NC-SA might
>>> be better. Whatever it needs to have, to allow the community to edit.
>>
>> All I can guarantee is that my contributions will be public domain. :)
>>
>>> This is probably a bad idea. But I'm trying to think outside the box. What
>>> if I (or other non-French-speaker) took one of the French pages, and sent it
>>> through the public google and/or bing translators. I know those are far
>>> from perfect. (Sooooo far!) But since I know Inkscape, it seems like it
>>> would give me enough of a clue what it's about, to be able to write it
>>> properly in English.
>>
>> Well, translation plus proof-reading is fine I'd think. It's not like
>> the subject matter would be alien to you. :) Fact is, you could easily
>> re-write from scratch the missing sections in English, then we would
>> be able to use it in our own "official" Inkscape manual too.
>>
>>> Then maybe the translators can proof read it, to make sure something
>>> important wasn't missed? Proof reading would seem to be much less
>>> time-consuming for them.
>>>
>>> Would that work??
>>>
>>> All best,
>>> brynn
>>
>>
>> As I understand it, the Inkscape Project has nothing to do with
>> flossmanuals, so perhaps it's beyond the scope of this project.
>>
5 years, 8 months
Re: [Inkscape-docs] License for the new manual
by brynn
I'm not very knowledgable about licensing or licenses. But what part of GPL
prohibits any of the 4 things you listed?
All best,
brynn
-----Original Message-----
From: C R
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 11:23 AM
To: Brynn
Cc: inkscape-devel ; Maren Hachmann ; Inkscape-Docs ; Nicolas Dufour ; Sylvain
Chiron
Subject: Re: License for the new manual
Going to simplify a bit:
>From my perspective anyone should be able to take parts of the official inkscape
manual and:
1. Modify it, update it, correct it
2. Combine it with other teaching content (rules out GPL3, GPL2, and CC-BY-SA)
3. Use it in commercial products, or part of a compilation of manuals (Rules out
CC-BY-NC-SA)
4. Use it any other way they like, because it's just tutorials for using
Inkscape, and anyone who wants to learn or spread the word about Inkscape should
be able to do so however they like. There's literally no wrong way to do that.
:)
imho we should avoid licenses that were not made for documentation entirely (GPL
anything).
Thoughts about this?
-C
On 2 May 2017 3:57 p.m., "brynn" <brynn@...78...> wrote:
Retitled - "License for the new manual" (was "Any chance we can make some
docs.....") Also copying in Sylvain, since he's been working on translation. I
know there's another translator, but I can't seem to open the manual today, to
look it up. So if someone knows who that is, please copy them in to this new
thread.
We should sort out what license we will offer the new manual under as
a first step, before starting any work. We need to reach a consensus
before work can proceed.
Well, considering work has already started on the manual (the translating part),
we might be a little behind the 8 ball. But I agree that we need to nail down
the license asap.
Retitling this to start the discussion.
Also, according to
https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/
This document is GPL v3.
I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other
content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is
unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.
Well that's the same license as Inkscape. How is it too restrictive?
For me, the main point is that it needs a license that will allow anyone to edit
it. We can't get stuck with an outdated manual and have no way to edit it (as a
community), ever again.
All best,
brynn
-----Original Message----- From: C R
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 4:22 AM
To: brynn
Cc: Nicolas Dufour ; Maren Hachmann ; inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs
material? (targeting the moon)
Also, according to
https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/about-this-book/
This document is GPL v3.
I recommend against choosing this license, as it requires all other
content used along with the parts of it to be gpl 3, which is
unnecessarily restrictive, especially for a document of this type.
We should sort out what license we will offer the new manual under as
a first step, before starting any work. We need to reach a consensus
before work can proceed.
-C
On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 11:14 AM, C R <cajhne@...2...> wrote:
Is anyone discussing a copyrighted book or manual at this point? If
so, let's not. It's Copyleft or Public Domain. No proprietary books or
content should be included in official Inkscape documentation. We need
to be able to freely revise, edit, distribute without the legal
entanglements.
-C
On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 8:28 AM, brynn <brynn@...78...> wrote:
- How does version control work for booktype?
This question will probably make more sense when you make the next post you
promised from a different message. I had asked why we were talking about
using gitlab and all that, if we were still focused on the FLOSS
translation/manual. And you said you had an idea to present that you didn't
have time at that moment.
I can't really see a marriage of these 2 projects (free manual, copyrighted
book of tutorials). But I'm looking forward to hearing your proposal :-)
All best,
brynn
-----Original Message----- From: Maren Hachmann
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2017 1:28 PM
To: Nicolas Dufour ; brynn ; C R
Cc: inkscape-devel ; Inkscape-Docs
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some
docs material? (targeting the moon)
Hi Nicolas :D,
thank you!
What I would like to know (and what is now buried deep in the email
stream) is:
- How does version control work for booktype? Could it be combined with
a git repository, or does it use a fully independent system?
(I couldn't find a direct hint, maybe it's just using the django
database to keep track of changes/edits?)
- What is the source file format of booktype? Markdown? (guessing from
the requirements for pip)
Regards,
Maren
Am 01.05.2017 um 21:08 schrieb Nicolas Dufour:
Hi all,
I'm just back from two weeks away, and as the thread is very long now
I didn't find time to read everything. Sorry if I'm off-topic.
Le Lundi 1 mai 2017 13h07, Maren Hachmann <maren@...68...> a
écrit :
I only wish Nicolas or Elisa could be here to give us some more
in-depth
info about their server's capabilities
Not sure what you mean. Of course the Inkscape project can use the
French FM server for the translation, but note that an English
version also exists (http://write.flossmanuals.net/). It would
probably be easier to work on the English server directly.
and their book's licencing.
If I remember correctly, the GPLv2 was the first license that was
chosen when the FM project was created about 10 years ago, and some
books still use it. But the server allows users to choose a different
license when creating a new book (CC, GPL, PD). As for the Inkscape
book, I see it's under a GPLv3. I don't know if it can be changed
(and how) or not. Elisa could probably give more details.
Regards, -- Nicolas
5 years, 8 months
