Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
by Maren Hachmann
Hi all,
oh, wow, I've just been offline for a couple of hours - wouldn't have
expected that, if finally someone gives the 'go' for a manual, there
would be such a huge echo (we've been discussing this on and off for a
/very/ long time already). That's just cool :D
Just some comments to various things that were mentioned:
@CR: I think Scribus is a great tool for making the kind of graphical,
polished, sellable, printable, book-with-columns-like structure which
was linked in that very first link. For something that is really nice to
look at, and is fun to read and touch.
I also think this is not the same as a manual, which should be quick to
browse, quick to grasp, with lots of interlinks, with a file format
suitable for version control (well, yes, Scribus is xml, I've been told,
so it would be /readable/ - but those diffs are really ugly), with
out-of-the-box automated generation of online versions of a manual - as
can be done with tools like sphinx/readthedocs, doctype, and other tools
specifically tailored for open source documentation + gitlab CI.
You can take a look at the link from Victor's message to the mailing
list, if you would like to know more:
https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/message/35773618/
Even the booktype server of flossmanuals works with automation.
Using one of those would also have the advantage that, once set up, this
system could be used for both developer as well as user documentation
(as Victor wrote in his post - and I agree with him).
As for the attribution, I think especially the book-like structure would
profit from it, as I believe that artists may be more likely to
contribute their drawings if those are - at least - credited to them.
Also, it would be good if things like the keyboard+mouse reference and
other stuff we already have could be included. It's faster that way.
Faster also means: quicker rewards. This is good if you want to have
many contributors. Also, crediting people for their work is just
something that makes them more willing to contribute (as stated above).
CC-By would lose that, after the first iteration, as far as my
understanding of the licence goes.
Some of the people involved in flossmanualsfr are also long-time
contributors to and developers of Inkscape, so that's the relation.
The other, English, outdated, manual that you linked to, has been
written by many of the 'old hands' in the Inkscape community - some of
whom have moved on, and some of whom are still involved.
@doctormo: "FLOSS Manuals utilise la licence libre GPL pour l'ensemble
de ses travaux." - translates to: all manuals on flossmanuals are under
the GPL (don't ask which version, doesn't say there on that page.
(https://www.flossmanualsfr.net/faq-floss-manuals-francophone/ch011_quest-...).
@Brynn: if you want to help with the translation of that 'intro' book,
you could, for example, make corresponding screenshots for it, of the
English version. You could also get an account on that site, and explain
to others who speak both French and English how it works, and what they
would need to do to join. Or write a news article asking for translators
who would like to help.
Also, you could add a 'Credits' page at the end, which seems to be
missing still.
And, of course, you can proofread and edit. Sylvain has already
translated quite a bit.
The NC licence is maybe a bit overprotective, but I'm all for crediting
and having a manual be available for anyone who needs it. I personally
wouldn't mind if someone prints and sells it and makes money with that.
As long as that is not the only source of the book/manual, this doesn't
cause me any worries.
I think google translate might cause more issues than solve them - but
it has been getting better... I personally find that correcting a badly
messed-up text which already gives me some 'scheme' tends to give worse
translations, than when there is no scaffolding. It's because the
machine translation is kind of giving the direction. It may be faster,
but the translation sounds less natural.
@jazzynico or Elisa: Can you tell us the specific flossmanuals licence?
GPLv2 or 3? Or, if not specified, do you know which version it would use
then, legally? Does Booktype use any kind of version control that is
compatible with git? What is the source file format?
@Miguel: yes, we're discussing those workarounds (and many others) on
the forums on a regular basis. It would certainly be cool if someone
could compile the 'Tips + Tricks' (sounds better than workarounds?) to
make up a separate section in the manual, or even a separate manual by
its own.
(sorry for the long post, there was a lot to reply to :D)
Maren
Am 29.04.2017 um 21:22 schrieb C R:
> Also this: http://write.flossmanuals.net/inkscape/
>
> On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 8:04 PM, C R <cajhne@...2...> wrote:
>>>> Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways,....
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I understand that. But I thought Victor was talking about a hardback
>>> book, like at the link he provided. That kind of book is hard to get
>>> published, unless you have some prior agreement with a publisher. At least
>>> that's my understanding.
>>
>> We can self-publish, but we'd have to order a thousand copies, which
>> would take some startup funds. I don't think hardback would be
>> necessary.
>> In fact, I don't imagine printing is necessary. We could render out a
>> nice illustration of the book, with "ebook" under it, and people can
>> enjoy the aesthetic without downing a bunch of trees to make physical
>> copies of the manual. Virtual copies have great things like
>> hyperlinks, and text search capabilities. So there are more benefits
>> to having a digital copy anyway.
>>
>>> Somewhere in this thread was some discussion about licensing. If this is to
>>> be a hardback book (old fashioned way of publishing) *to me* it makes more
>>> sense to carry a copyright.
>>
>> The only requirement for a published physical book is an isbn number
>> (for product catalog, and inventory purposes). The license of the
>> book, as I understand it, is left completely open to the authors. We
>> would not have this published by a company interested in owning the
>> copyright, of course.
>>
>>> As far as I understand, publishers take a cut
>>> of sales. And if it's a public domain content, there wouldn't be many
>>> sales. It seems like it would make it even harder to find a publisher.
>>
>> A publisher isn't necessary for this project, assuming the content is
>> what's important. If we want book sales out of this, that's the point
>> where it will become an issue.
>>
>>> I don't know, maybe I'm old and old fashioned. But the FLOSS manual, on the
>>> other hand, certainly should be either public domain, or CC-BY-NC-SA might
>>> be better. Whatever it needs to have, to allow the community to edit.
>>
>> All I can guarantee is that my contributions will be public domain. :)
>>
>>> This is probably a bad idea. But I'm trying to think outside the box. What
>>> if I (or other non-French-speaker) took one of the French pages, and sent it
>>> through the public google and/or bing translators. I know those are far
>>> from perfect. (Sooooo far!) But since I know Inkscape, it seems like it
>>> would give me enough of a clue what it's about, to be able to write it
>>> properly in English.
>>
>> Well, translation plus proof-reading is fine I'd think. It's not like
>> the subject matter would be alien to you. :) Fact is, you could easily
>> re-write from scratch the missing sections in English, then we would
>> be able to use it in our own "official" Inkscape manual too.
>>
>>> Then maybe the translators can proof read it, to make sure something
>>> important wasn't missed? Proof reading would seem to be much less
>>> time-consuming for them.
>>>
>>> Would that work??
>>>
>>> All best,
>>> brynn
>>
>>
>> As I understand it, the Inkscape Project has nothing to do with
>> flossmanuals, so perhaps it's beyond the scope of this project.
>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: C R
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 9:54 AM
>>> To: brynn
>>> Cc: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List ; Maren Hachmann ; Victor Westmann
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material?
>>> (targeting the moon)
>>>
>>>> I don't mean to slow anyone's roll here. But wouldn't it make more sense
>>>> to put
>>>> any kind of energy towards documentation into the much discussed, direly
>>>> needed,
>>>> user-focused, step by step manual? Rather than starting from scratch on a
>>>> whole
>>>> different kind of project?
>>>
>>>
>>> Yea, this actually makes a lot of sense as a first step.
>>>
>>>> There are many books out there already, which amount to a series of
>>>> tutorials.
>>>> It's not a bad thing. I just think this kind of project is better suited
>>>> for a
>>>> single author, or maybe a small team. And I think the project needs the
>>>> manual
>>>> much, more more than the community needs another book of tutorials.
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree. I think the book could be a lot of things in one. But I agree
>>> with finishing what we already have before starting something new.
>>>
>>>
>>>> As far as I understand, all that's needed is an English translation
>>>> of...well
>>>> can't find a link to the French version. Here's a link to whatever has
>>>> been
>>>> translated already:
>>>> https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/introduction/
>>>
>>>
>>> I can't help with translation, unfortunately. But I'd like to see this
>>> finished. So +1 for the suggestion.
>>>
>>>> Once we have the translation, we'll be off and running to update and
>>>> finish it!
>>>> By the way, is there anything those of us who can't translate, can do, to
>>>> help
>>>> the translators?
>>>
>>>
>>> I volunteer to help this effort in what ways are needed.
>>>
>>>> And won't such a new book of tutorials have to be published? A big
>>>> obstacle to
>>>> writing any book is getting it published. You almost have to have an
>>>> invitation
>>>> from a publisher to be certain a book will get published. Or publish it
>>>> yourself, which is not easy eitiher.
>>>
>>>
>>> Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways, opened
>>> in browsers, laptops, eReaders, or just printed out. We could sell
>>> printed copies along with other Inkscape stuff. Maybe copies signed by
>>> members of the project would be kinda cool. No idea what the market is
>>> for it, but the idea that we could do all of these at once is
>>> attractive, and why I recommend Scribus.
>>>
>>> -C
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just my opinion :-)
>>>>
>>>> brynn
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Maren Hachmann
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 4:01 PM
>>>> To: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material?
>>>> (targeting the moon)
>>>>
>>>> Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?
>>>>
>>>> The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There
>>>> are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as it
>>>> might be later on.
>>>>
>>>> Maren
>>>>
>>>>> Am 28.04.2017 um 16:14 schrieb Martin Owens:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's
>>>>>>> what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd
>>>>>>> like.
>>>>>>> It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack
>>>>>>> of time/hands involved.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably be a
>>>>>>> github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what
>>>>>>> needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, there
>>>>>> should be a button to join:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the
>>>>>> adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have something
>>>>>> "complete" but have something small produced.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best Regards, Martin Owens
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Inkscape-devel mailing list
>>>>>> Inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net
>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Inkscape-devel mailing list
>>>> Inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Inkscape-devel mailing list
>>>> Inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>>>
>>>
>
5 years, 10 months
Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
by Maren Hachmann
Am 30.04.2017 um 11:39 schrieb C R:
>
>
> I also think this is not the same as a manual, which should be quick to
> browse, quick to grasp, with lots of interlinks, with a file format
> suitable for version control (well, yes, Scribus is xml, I've been told,
> so it would be /readable/ - but those diffs are really ugly), with
> out-of-the-box automated generation of online versions of a manual - as
> can be done with tools like sphinx/readthedocs, doctype, and other tools
>
>
> Martin and I are thinking gitlab + markdown will suffice for the basis
> of contribution, and we can worry about scribus and doc publishing later.
>
- This sounds to me like it would be duplicating work, when automated
systems exist, but aren't used from the start.
>
> Also, it would be good if things like the keyboard+mouse reference and
> other stuff we already have could be included.
>
>
> Probably should use markdown code to identify key shortcuts in plain
> text. Makes them easier to edit, diff, and provides an easy way to add
> new ones.
- Yes, but we could copy the structure and contents, which are both
good. I certainly don't know all the shortcuts by heart. And there are
many that aren't listed in the keys.xml file.
> Also, crediting people for their work is just
> something that makes them more willing to contribute (as stated above).
> CC-By would lose that, after the first iteration, as far as my
> understanding of the licence goes.
>
>
> We get into the territory of having to edit each and every diagram or
> screen capture. It's messy. I think a better credit would be to have a
> contributor page for those who contribute the most. If that's
> insufficient credit, I think people might be contributing for the wrong
> reasons.
>
- I fully agree that a general 'Credits' page would be sufficient. The
Inkscape website contents is dual licenced, too. And we do not have
individual credits for each page, word, image, link or whatever. It
would be very difficult to do that anyway.
Do you think that poses a problem?
If someone wants to know specifically, a git blame would be sufficient
to find out (this wouldn't work for the website's CMS, though)...
> Some of the people involved in flossmanualsfr are also long-time
> contributors to and developers of Inkscape, so that's the relation.
>
>
> But you see how the licensing gets in the way? We can't use any of it
> now. People wanted credit more than they wanted to have the contents be
> reusable. GPL is for software. People try to rewrite for content, but
> that's not what it's for. Worse, it imposes more restrictions than CC-BY.
- We could, if we used GPL... It doesn't prevent translation or
modification. And we can ask, as Martin suggested.
> I think it's best to say something like: "Unless otherwise stated, all
> content in this book is CC0, Public Domain." Then, those who require
> attribution can include it in the caption below the graphics.
- That's certainly possible. However, I wouldn't contribute text or
proofreading or maintenance help under these circumstances. There are
many things that I have published as CC0 (Public Domain is impossible in
Germany, because there are certain moral rights, such as 'authorship'
that one cannot give up, even if one wanted to).
But a manual that is made for an open source, copyleft software should
fit the philosophy, in my opinion. I care about attributing work to the
people who did it, and I don't want that someone who comes along to grab
what they did can just deprive them of it.
Regards,
Maren
5 years, 10 months
Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
by Victor Westmann
Hi Miguel,
I think this is a GREAT advantage for the entire Inkscape project. It makes
all the sense of the world to help users do all the needed workarounds and,
if they want, help send funds to the project ($$) and/or a bug request on
Gitlab(is it at Gitlab really?).
Amazing. The more transparent we are (and we really are) the better.
--Victor Westmann
2017-04-29 10:39 GMT-07:00 Miguel Lopez <reptillia39@...154...>:
> I want to put out something regarding documentations. What about
> workarounds to Inkscape limitations as part of the documentation? Some
> users really need some answers to the limitation of Inkscape. There's
> another idea I have in mind. For making tutorials shorter, we can use
> existing tutorials of our own and linking to them as part of advanced
> section of Inkscape tutorials. Advanced users should already know the
> program in and out to know how to apply them for advanced rendering.
> Some of those might need workarounds though.
>
> My only issue with those workaround is the amount of time they require,
> and the tax on limited resources. Otherwise, if those weren't a issue,
> they would be fantastic though they're still not a replacement to what
> other programs has to offer. I can offer making workaround docs if
> anyone wants me to show how to work around Inkscape limits.
>
> For example :
>
> 1) Gradient Stroke -
>
> 1a) Method 1 (If profile line aren't needed) - Duplicate and then adjust
> stroke width, and then convert to path. Every strokes must be converted
> to path. You copy and paste the path that is going to get removed by
> applying the path difference. You repeat the process, and then you get
> every individual stroke which can be colored as however you please.
>
> 1b) Method 2 (If profile line is needed) You apply the same thing to the
> above, but you are not going to use stroke width. Instead, you are going
> to use power stroke to emulate profile line with gradient stroke.
>
> 2) Realistic Rendering of convulated objects like a shoe.
>
> 2a) This involves series of clipping, blurring, gradient mesh and
> brushing. Right now, Inkscape users can only use gradient mesh for basic
> overall lighting, and some bit of coloring using filtering since
> gradient mesh is underdeveloped in Inkscape. You apply blur to brushes
> in order to emulate shading. Doing this a lot can give very sastifying
> result within Inkscape, but also drains so much of rendering speed
> within Inkscape even with a powerful computer. But results are literally
> comparable to raster programs, and in some way even better because well,
> it's scalable.
>
> 3) The lack of warp tool for textures workaround
>
> 3a) As of now, we do have lattice tool, and the tweak liquifying tool.
> Those two can be used as a workaround to the lack of warp tool. Lattice
> deformation tool should had the option of allowing users to tweak the
> tangency line though instead of the tangency line being tangent to the
> horizontal and vertical direction. This is not something that can have a
> decent workaround since it requires duplicating so many objects and then
> tweaking it would be a major pain. For complicated textures, it can't be
> done within Inkscape unless you have a infinite amount of time and
> resource, and as we all know that's not possible.
>
> 4) For people who have trouble with tangency snapping (I'm one of
> those), and no that snapping option does not help one bit.
>
> 4a) The obvious workaround involves using the show handles. You can make
> tangent line utilizing the result of the show handles LPE. Also, this
> enables users to be able to create perpendicular, and tangent spiro path.
>
> 5) The lack of ease regarding manipulating mask/clip
>
> 5a) The workaround to this is well, using the clone as the
> masking/clipping source while retaining the original for
> clipping/masking at another location. This workaround works because you
> can always manipulate the source object, and hide it. It is almost
> exactly like as if you were manipulating transparency mask within Krita
> or Photoshop or GIMP. After testing it, it's beautiful really when you
> change between layer/group.
>
> 6) PDF export limitation
>
> 6a) The obvious workaround here is well, export to png and then convert
> to pdf. Of course, some rasterization would be needed if one has to
> convert to pdf, literally at times.
>
> I think those are the 6 issues that could be addressed via docs tutorial
> for those who are desperate to find a solution to those. They can always
> resort to Krita for those (except 6 because pdf export is not planned),
> but that's not a option if they have to create a vector render. If
> there's anything I miss regarding workarounds, lemme know. I can
> probably add more workarounds if I miss anything as I know the program
> in and out from a user perspective.
>
>
> On 4/29/2017 11:54 AM, C R wrote:
> >> I don't mean to slow anyone's roll here. But wouldn't it make more
> sense to put
> >> any kind of energy towards documentation into the much discussed,
> direly needed,
> >> user-focused, step by step manual? Rather than starting from scratch
> on a whole
> >> different kind of project?
> > Yea, this actually makes a lot of sense as a first step.
> >
> >> There are many books out there already, which amount to a series of
> tutorials.
> >> It's not a bad thing. I just think this kind of project is better
> suited for a
> >> single author, or maybe a small team. And I think the project needs
> the manual
> >> much, more more than the community needs another book of tutorials.
> > I agree. I think the book could be a lot of things in one. But I agree
> > with finishing what we already have before starting something new.
> >
> >
> >> As far as I understand, all that's needed is an English translation
> of...well
> >> can't find a link to the French version. Here's a link to whatever has
> been
> >> translated already:
> >> https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/introduction/
> > I can't help with translation, unfortunately. But I'd like to see this
> > finished. So +1 for the suggestion.
> >
> >> Once we have the translation, we'll be off and running to update and
> finish it!
> >> By the way, is there anything those of us who can't translate, can do,
> to help
> >> the translators?
> > I volunteer to help this effort in what ways are needed.
> >
> >> And won't such a new book of tutorials have to be published? A big
> obstacle to
> >> writing any book is getting it published. You almost have to have an
> invitation
> >> from a publisher to be certain a book will get published. Or publish it
> >> yourself, which is not easy eitiher.
> > Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways, opened
> > in browsers, laptops, eReaders, or just printed out. We could sell
> > printed copies along with other Inkscape stuff. Maybe copies signed by
> > members of the project would be kinda cool. No idea what the market is
> > for it, but the idea that we could do all of these at once is
> > attractive, and why I recommend Scribus.
> >
> > -C
> >
> >> Just my opinion :-)
> >>
> >> brynn
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Maren Hachmann
> >> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 4:01 PM
> >> To: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List
> >> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material?
> >> (targeting the moon)
> >>
> >> Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?
> >>
> >> The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There
> >> are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as it
> >> might be later on.
> >>
> >> Maren
> >>
> >>> Am 28.04.2017 um 16:14 schrieb Martin Owens:
> >>>> On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote:
> >>>>> I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's
> >>>>> what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd
> >>>>> like.
> >>>>> It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack
> >>>>> of time/hands involved.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably be a
> >>>>> github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what
> >>>>> needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases.
> >>>> Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris.
> >>>>
> >>>> Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, there
> >>>> should be a button to join:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs
> >>>>
> >>>> And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals
> >>>>
> >>>> I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the
> >>>> adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have something
> >>>> "complete" but have something small produced.
> >>>>
> >>>> Best Regards, Martin Owens
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> >>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> >>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Inkscape-devel mailing list
> >>>> Inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net
> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
> >>>>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Inkscape-devel mailing list
> >> Inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Inkscape-devel mailing list
> >> Inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> > _______________________________________________
> > Inkscape-devel mailing list
> > Inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-devel mailing list
> Inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>
5 years, 10 months
Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
by Maren Hachmann
Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?
The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There
are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as it
might be later on.
Maren
> Am 28.04.2017 um 16:14 schrieb Martin Owens:
>> On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote:
>>> I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's
>>> what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd
>>> like.
>>> It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack
>>> of time/hands involved.
>>>
>>> Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably be a
>>> github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what
>>> needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases.
>>
>> Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris.
>>
>> Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, there
>> should be a button to join:
>>
>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs
>>
>> And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put:
>>
>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals
>>
>> I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the
>> adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have something
>> "complete" but have something small produced.
>>
>> Best Regards, Martin Owens
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Inkscape-devel mailing list
>> Inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>>
>
5 years, 10 months
Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
by brynn
>> And won't such a new book of tutorials have to be published? .....
> Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways,....
Yes, I understand that. But I thought Victor was talking about a hardback book,
like at the link he provided. That kind of book is hard to get published,
unless you have some prior agreement with a publisher. At least that's my
understanding.
Somewhere in this thread was some discussion about licensing. If this is to be
a hardback book (old fashioned way of publishing) *to me* it makes more sense to
carry a copyright. As far as I understand, publishers take a cut of sales. And
if it's a public domain content, there wouldn't be many sales. It seems like it
would make it even harder to find a publisher.
I don't know, maybe I'm old and old fashioned. But the FLOSS manual, on the
other hand, certainly should be either public domain, or CC-BY-NC-SA might be
better. Whatever it needs to have, to allow the community to edit.
I'm not sure what has the translators on pause. But that seems to be the
"blocker" at the moment. That's why I was asking if there was anything we
non-translators can do to help. I wish I knew anyone I could ask to help, but I
sure don't.
This is probably a bad idea. But I'm trying to think outside the box. What if
I (or other non-French-speaker) took one of the French pages, and sent it
through the public google and/or bing translators. I know those are far from
perfect. (Sooooo far!) But since I know Inkscape, it seems like it would give
me enough of a clue what it's about, to be able to write it properly in English.
Then maybe the translators can proof read it, to make sure something important
wasn't missed? Proof reading would seem to be much less time-consuming for
them.
Would that work??
All best,
brynn
-----Original Message-----
From: C R
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 9:54 AM
To: brynn
Cc: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List ; Maren Hachmann ; Victor Westmann
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material?
(targeting the moon)
> I don't mean to slow anyone's roll here. But wouldn't it make more sense to
> put
> any kind of energy towards documentation into the much discussed, direly
> needed,
> user-focused, step by step manual? Rather than starting from scratch on a
> whole
> different kind of project?
Yea, this actually makes a lot of sense as a first step.
> There are many books out there already, which amount to a series of tutorials.
> It's not a bad thing. I just think this kind of project is better suited for
> a
> single author, or maybe a small team. And I think the project needs the
> manual
> much, more more than the community needs another book of tutorials.
I agree. I think the book could be a lot of things in one. But I agree
with finishing what we already have before starting something new.
> As far as I understand, all that's needed is an English translation of...well
> can't find a link to the French version. Here's a link to whatever has been
> translated already:
> https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/introduction/
I can't help with translation, unfortunately. But I'd like to see this
finished. So +1 for the suggestion.
> Once we have the translation, we'll be off and running to update and finish
> it!
> By the way, is there anything those of us who can't translate, can do, to help
> the translators?
I volunteer to help this effort in what ways are needed.
> And won't such a new book of tutorials have to be published? A big obstacle
> to
> writing any book is getting it published. You almost have to have an
> invitation
> from a publisher to be certain a book will get published. Or publish it
> yourself, which is not easy eitiher.
Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways, opened
in browsers, laptops, eReaders, or just printed out. We could sell
printed copies along with other Inkscape stuff. Maybe copies signed by
members of the project would be kinda cool. No idea what the market is
for it, but the idea that we could do all of these at once is
attractive, and why I recommend Scribus.
-C
>
> Just my opinion :-)
>
> brynn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Maren Hachmann
> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 4:01 PM
> To: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List
> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material?
> (targeting the moon)
>
> Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?
>
> The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There
> are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as it
> might be later on.
>
> Maren
>
>> Am 28.04.2017 um 16:14 schrieb Martin Owens:
>>> On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote:
>>>> I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's
>>>> what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd
>>>> like.
>>>> It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack
>>>> of time/hands involved.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably be a
>>>> github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what
>>>> needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases.
>>>
>>> Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris.
>>>
>>> Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, there
>>> should be a button to join:
>>>
>>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs
>>>
>>> And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put:
>>>
>>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals
>>>
>>> I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the
>>> adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have something
>>> "complete" but have something small produced.
>>>
>>> Best Regards, Martin Owens
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Inkscape-devel mailing list
>>> Inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-devel mailing list
> Inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-devel mailing list
> Inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
5 years, 10 months
Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
by Martin Owens
> It's fine to pull content
> from properly licenced sources, imho, too.
>
> I disagree. This would create a tangle of licenses and attribution
> requirements that will make the contents less usable in/by other
> projects. We should remove the burden of attribution where possible.
It doesn't have to be a tangle if you set out the rules from the start.
Copyleft exists to protect projects and attribution exists to give
authors credit for their hard work.
A CC-BY-SA project should be doable. But I'm hoping to examples of
situations where educational materials were harmed by choosing an
attribution style license.
(also, if it's in a repository, the "who wrote what" becomes a bit
easier)
As for pulling in content from outside. Ask. Firstly ask if the author
would like their work included, then ask if they could relicense their
work to whatever is needed and then finally if the other two were met
with enthusiasm, ask them to join the team. :-)
Best Regards, Martin Owens
5 years, 10 months
Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
by Maren Hachmann
Am 29.04.2017 um 10:05 schrieb C R:
> I have requested access to the gitlab repo. Once allowed, I'll drop a
> Scribus document in there with a cover, and the master pages with some
> initial styling for the document. I'll also do a README file with an
> initial layout/contents proposal based on some of the ideas here.
>
> To my mind, the most useful thing would be getting an inkscape
> quick-start guide going as the preface. This way users can start
> making use of the document right away.
>
> We may also want to publish each section of the book as a pdf as we go
> along, so users don't have to clone our repos just to get the
> information. :)
>
> Contributors should also be aware that it's not okay to copy/paste
> content from blogs, tutorials, etc. For this document, everything must
> be re-written from scratch, and all screen captures, graphics etc.
> must be of our own making and cc0 (public domain). Anyone not
> interested in contributing 100% public domain content, should not
> contribute to this project.
- For a printable book, this sounds like a good idea :D
For a more 'scientific' manual, I think it's not suitable to do this in
Scribus, and that we should turn to a proven documentation software.
I've heard that Scribus performance drops dramatically with the number
of pages. How would you go about translatating the book?
I strongly disagree with CC0 - I would only contribute to something that
where attribution and copyleft are honored. It's fine to pull content
from properly licenced sources, imho, too. There are quick start guides
with good licences - this would make the process a lot faster, if it
wouldn't need to be written from scratch, but only modified. So yeah,
count me out :)
Maren
> -C
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 12:01 AM, Maren Hachmann
> <maren@...68...> wrote:
>> Great :)
>>
>> I think, in this context, it makes sense to also link to the thread on
>> the translators mailing list, where many of us have already been
>> discussing the issue, and started to investigate options.
>>
>> https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/inkscape-translator/thread/CAP...
>>
>> Victor (who initiated the thread) has already written about his findings
>> about Sphinx there, and he also linked to a list on github, where
>> different documentation systems are listed (sorry, your latest email is
>> still on my todo list, Victor).
>>
>> Elisa has mentioned the Booktype instance of flossmanualsfr, as far as I
>> remember.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Maren
>>
>> Am 29.04.2017 um 00:17 schrieb Martin Owens:
>>> On Sat, 2017-04-29 at 00:01 +0200, Maren Hachmann wrote:
>>>> Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?
>>>>
>>>> The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way.
>>>> There
>>>> are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as
>>>> it
>>>> might be later on.
>>>
>>> Agreed.
>>>
>>> I've moved everything around and re-added the members to the group.
>>>
>>> Project is now: https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs/manuals
>>> Group is now: https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs
>>>
>>> Best Regards, Martin Owens
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Inkscape-devel mailing list
>> Inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>
5 years, 10 months
Re: [Inkscape-docs] [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
by Martin Owens
On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote:
> I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's
> what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd
> like.
> It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack
> of time/hands involved.
>
> Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably be a
> github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what
> needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases.
Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris.
Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, there
should be a button to join:
https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs
And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put:
https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals
I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the
adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have something
"complete" but have something small produced.
Best Regards, Martin Owens
5 years, 10 months
Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)
by Victor Westmann
Hi team,
I was not sure as where I was supposed to open this discussion (or
question) of mine.
I was just wondering... I do know that it takes a lot of time, and money,
and then more time, and probably a lot of revisions... but do you guys
think we can try to aim making something similar to this?
https://affinity.serif.com/en-us/designer/workbook/
This is a hard copy, printed, material that Affinity Designer, from the
Serif company, sell. I confess I don't have a copy of this material (yet)
as it seems it only exists, officially, in the printed version... but I saw
some samples and was really inspired and eager to check if we could do
something on our own more or less of the same kind.
We could try to use the Scribus to achieve such results.. and some open
fonts (from Google and Adobe) and try to assemble 4 - 6 different big
learning areas inside this Inkscape Activity Book.
They could be:
1. Creating isometric graphics, (there is a super sweet plugin that works
wonderfully in Inkscape 0.91.2)
2. Vectorizing simple photos,
3. creating logos (or recreating famous ones (not sure this is allowed)),
there are multiple AMAZING examples of this on Nick Saporito Youtube
channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEQXp_fcqwPcqrzNtWJ1w9w)
4. UX-UI design to create webpage (or mobile apps) mockups.
I know it is a lot of work. But we could try doing a smaller and simpler
version of it to see how it goes.
It would help us gather more money to the Inkscape project and follow, more
or less, the model of Krita (they have a paid support option and some books
to sell as well) and Blender (they have a store with multiple long and
detailed tutorials on how to do things in videos (DVDs)).
Just wondering... I know this might be asking too much... but I plan to be
involved in this. Even if we have time for only 1 or 2 modules. It would be
amazing to craft such material and spread it to the community (paid or
free).
--Victor Westmann
5 years, 10 months
website issue
by brynn
Something weird is happening with the website. I'm not quite sure how to
explain it. Images are missing (except in the gallery) and all links, even text
links, are blue spheres.
Just in case you didn't notice yet. I waited half an hour, to make sure it
wasn't a momentary glitch.
All best,
brynn
5 years, 11 months