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Re: [Inkscape-devel] Illustrations for a planned 3D box tool (SoC)
by Maximilian Albert 25 Mar '07

25 Mar '07

Hi Thorsten, finally a response from me, too. ;) Since Bulia already replied to pretty much everything you said/asked, I will just make a few general comments, trying to sum it up. I think I can understand your concerns very well, since until rather recently I shared your attitude. My first brainstormed attempt for a proposal used an approach very similar to yours. I asked myself who would use this tool and tried to tailor it to this target audience. The result was something which would probably have been quite usable, but mostly for people who want to draw 2-point perspectives with a horizontal horizon. Users who are interested in more complicated and/or unusual things like the second picture on the website could certainly use it, too, but with a lot more inconvenience since they would have to start with the restricted case. On the other hand, the more general 3D tool can with minimal overhead be made behave like one that was specially designed for 2-point perspectives. Bulia managed to convince me that it is much better to allow for maximal flexibility while preserving maximal simplicity. I think the described tool satisfies this. You can quickly draw any perspective you like. And if you are not perfectly satisfied, you can change it easily. The size of the box can be changed by dragging the corners (which makes them "glide along" the viewpoints, preserving the perspective). On the other hand, the perspective can be changed either by dragging the vanishing points or by dragging the perspective lines themselves. ==> My point was not about a technical limitation, but the common practical approach to drawing in perspective: you draw a box and the VPs remain in your imagination only. The angles of the edges step into the foreground. <== Hmm, after rereading your email I finally understood your objection. And on second thought I agree that it would probably be good to include an option which allows the user to drag PLs separately, without necessarily moving them together (as would be the case when using the method described in the third paragraph). On the other hand, what you have in mind essentially results in a rotation of the dragged PL around a specific corner and within a plane spanned by two of the VPs. I could imagine that in unusual perspectives it's not totally obvious which one that should be and how the user should be able to change it (in most cases, though, it will be the plane containing the VP for the "up" direction, which lies at infinity in the first picture, as well as the one on the PL being dragged). But I will give that some further thoughts, thanks for the suggestion! On third thought ;) your desired behaviour can almost be achieved using the method in the fifth paragraph. Just shift-drag the PL to constrain the movement of the VP to the horizon. This adapts the angle at the corner in a way which should be sufficiently intuitive. It certainly also adapts the angle at another corner, but that could be remedied (if required) by dragging the horizon when that is implemented later on (see below). As far as horizons and similar things are concerned, I agree that they make life much more easier for the average user, and I think we should provide the relevant functionality sooner or later. But in the beginning it is probably best to confine ourselves to the very basics and to make them work/behave properly and intuitively. Later on it's then no problem to add a horizon, make it draggable, restrict the movements of VPs to it, and many more things you could think of. But let's not attack these things before the core tool really works. Cheers, Max >From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Mar 25 09:24:21 2007 Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 18:24:07 +0200 From: Thorsten Wilms <t_w_@...123...> To: inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net Message-ID: <20070325162407.GB4611@...1413...> References: <46055F5C.4020403@...173...> <20070324185647.GA4642@...1413...> <3c78ff030703241206y1a44bc8clb41f9885c63337b@...401...> <20070324194945.GB4642@...1413...> <3c78ff030703241340i6ab7965bvcad52f0218a2049@...401...> <20070324212942.GC4642@...1413...> <3c78ff030703241449p5ecfa901pc45db28c0f7119a0@...401...> <20070325080322.GA4611@...1413...> <46069D9C.9010503@...173...> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <46069D9C.9010503@...173...> Priority: normal X-Mailer: Mutt User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Warning: 80.138.82.18 is listed at list.dsbl.org X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. Report problems to http://sf.net/tracker/?func=add&group_id=1&atid=200001 Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Illustrations for a planned 3D box tool (SoC) X-BeenThere: inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: t_w_@...123... List-Id: <inkscape-devel.lists.sourceforge.net> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel>, <mailto:inkscape-devel-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum=inkscape-devel> List-Post: <mailto:inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> List-Help: <mailto:inkscape-devel-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel>, <mailto:inkscape-devel-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 16:24:21 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, Mar 25, 2007 at 06:04:44PM +0200, Maximilian Albert wrote: > finally a response from me, too. ;) Since Bulia already replied to > pretty much everything you said/asked, I will just make a few general > comments, trying to sum it up. Ok, I see my input has been considered and I look forward to the first prototype ;) -- Thorsten Wilms Thorwil's Creature Illustrations: http://www.printfection.com/thorwil

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] [Fwd: Re: SoC proposal: ImageMagick effects in Inkscape]
by Ronan Zeegers 25 Mar '07

25 Mar '07

Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: > On 3/25/07, Ronan Zeegers <inkscape@...1494...> wrote: > >> Right now, the there no opensource program to do traditionnal 2D animation >> or storyboarding like toonboom or flash... > > You mean there is neither KToon nor Synfig? :) > > Alexandre > Did you try those programs? I remember doing some basic animation stuff with KToon but... What I think about KToon is that, the UI is bit strange (and wasting lot of pixel space), The brush tool is not has good has the inkscape one. And I don't think that we can find all that great stuffs that are in inkscape now like clone, linked clone, mask, blur, ... Even the node editing is far more advanced. It's the same problem about Synfig: lots of crash, strange UI and annoying flying windows. I just think that Inkscape have more chance to become an usable and powerfull 2d animation program first. KToon and synfig still needs lot of love! > > The SVG specification already provides for multiple frames and > animation; please read: > > http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/animate.html > > We just need to implement what's already specified. Thanx for the info! Ronan

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] [Fwd: Re: SoC proposal: ImageMagick effects in Inkscape]
by Ronan Zeegers 25 Mar '07

25 Mar '07

Nicholas Bishop wrote: > OK. Any other suggestions as to what projects Inkscape does need that > aren't being worked on by others? > > -Nicholas > Hey Nicolas! Glade to see you working on inkscape this year. The sculpt tool you did for blender is incredible! Here is a test I did in 1 day during the developpement of blender 2.43 (remember, the shapekeys bugs? :) ): http://www.ronanzeegers.com/showreel/Moontest.mpeg If you need suggestions for SoC this year, I have one: why not push inkscape more to the animation area? Right now, the there no opensource program to do traditionnal 2D animation or storyboarding like toonboom or flash... Inkscape could become a great tool for 2D animation. Here is a description of what need to be done: More important: -Add something to handel multiple draws/pages/frames (maybe trought the <mutlipage> svg tag?). -Add a timeline to handle keyframes and the duration of keyframes. -Add onion skin function. -Add realtime playback (temporary ram cache ?). -Add "export multiple frames" function. Secondary stuffs: -Improve the Brush/Calligraphic tool with automatic boolean function (like the one of flash). With that kind of option, it would be easy to add Eraser Tool... -Add an UI to handel different brush shapes/options. -Add a Cut Tool I would like to work on those area myslef to but with my actual coder skills, it would take years before getting something. So if you are interessed in those area, I'm sure you can make the opensource world for animators a better place ;) see you, Ronan

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Color Adjustment Dialog
by - - 25 Mar '07

25 Mar '07

Thanks, So, in that case, I will make an application for the color adjustment dialog. I feel confident, having a clear idea of how that could work as a final result, although I would have to look at the source code to learn more specifics of the implementation (working with the gui, and adjusting the colors and properties of objects in Inkspace). Bulia, since you are the mentor for this task, when I have any questions, regarding the development, and how it would best suit the software and integration with your current code, do I send to your email, or to this mailing list? Should I include links to previous software I have worked on in my application? -Omar. _________________________________________________________________ Trangt om plassen? http://www.hotmail.com MSN Hotmail gir deg 250MB gratis lagringsplass >From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Mar 24 14:29:46 2007 Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 22:29:42 +0100 From: Thorsten Wilms <t_w_@...123...> To: inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net Message-ID: <20070324212942.GC4642@...1413...> References: <46055F5C.4020403@...173...> <20070324185647.GA4642@...1413...> <3c78ff030703241206y1a44bc8clb41f9885c63337b@...401...> <20070324194945.GB4642@...1413...> <3c78ff030703241340i6ab7965bvcad52f0218a2049@...401...> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3c78ff030703241340i6ab7965bvcad52f0218a2049@...401...> Priority: normal X-Mailer: Mutt User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. Report problems to http://sf.net/tracker/?func=add&group_id=1&atid=200001 Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Illustrations for a planned 3D box tool (SoC) X-BeenThere: inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: t_w_@...123... List-Id: <inkscape-devel.lists.sourceforge.net> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel>, <mailto:inkscape-devel-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum=inkscape-devel> List-Post: <mailto:inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> List-Help: <mailto:inkscape-devel-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel>, <mailto:inkscape-devel-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 21:29:46 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline On Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 04:40:03PM -0400, bulia byak wrote: > Yes, and it's easy to make a regular guideline and to snap all VPs to > it. No need to add anything special to the 3D tool for that. I think you forget (2d canvas) rotation of the whole thing. -- Thorsten Wilms Thorwil's Creature Illustrations: http://www.printfection.com/thorwil

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] Illustrations for a planned 3D box tool (SoC)
by bulia byak 24 Mar '07

24 Mar '07

On 3/24/07, Thorsten Wilms <t_w_@...123...> wrote: > On Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 04:40:03PM -0400, bulia byak wrote: > > > Yes, and it's easy to make a regular guideline and to snap all VPs to > > it. No need to add anything special to the 3D tool for that. > > I think you forget (2d canvas) rotation of the whole thing. Rotating/moving/scaling/skewing a 3D box as a regular object with Selector tool transforms it as a whole, including all its VPs. -- bulia byak Inkscape. Draw Freely. http://www.inkscape.org

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Color adjustment Dialog - gSOC
by - - 24 Mar '07

24 Mar '07

Hi, May I introduce myself, My name is Omar El Sawi, I study Computer Visualization at National Centre for Computer Animation, UK. Unfortunately, I was late to hear about the Google Summer of Code Project. However, I have been using your software, and I would love to join. The "Color Adjustment Dialog" task seems suited to my skills. (I made a simple program last year with some similar functionality.) I'm thinking a dialog under (Effects -> adjust colours) which could interactively change the colours of the selected objects. Another one that is interesting for me, is "User Interface for SVG Filters". Are these suitable (free) projects which I could submit an application for? Any advice? Regards, -Omar _________________________________________________________________ Trangt om plassen? http://www.hotmail.com MSN Hotmail gir deg 250MB gratis lagringsplass

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] Illustrations for a planned 3D box tool (SoC)
by bulia byak 24 Mar '07

24 Mar '07

On 3/24/07, Thorsten Wilms <t_w_@...123...> wrote: > The perspective is either impossible or it's not a box, so much > is obvious for me. Ah, perhaps you mean that the green VP must be on the other side. But, Inkscape is under no obligation to represent only "possible" perspectives :) Just drag the VP down where _you_ want it to be according to your rules :) Others will probably find uses for such "impossible" perspectives. > But perhaps allowing such weird stuff makes things easier in the end. Yes, let's not introduce any limitations unless absolutely necessary. > > We don't yet have the notion of horizon at all, at least at this basic > > stage. Any pair of VPs can be taken to represent a horizon. > > The horizon is important. > Take several boxes with non-parallel side walls as example: > their VPs have to be on the same horizon. Yes, and it's easy to make a regular guideline and to snap all VPs to it. No need to add anything special to the 3D tool for that. > > > as the user will likely care more about the box. Because if you > > > draw on paper, using construction boxes/lines, at least one VP > > > would be far away from the paper in most cases. > > > > So what? In Inkscape you can always zoom out as far as you need and > > still drag it freely. > > My point was not about a technical limitation, but the common practical > approach to drawing in perspective: you draw a box and the VPs remain > in your imagination only. The angles of the edges step into the fore- > ground. That's because on paper, you can't just grab the VP and drag it. So you think in terms of angles. But when you can drag it, it's much easier IMHO :) > > When you drag a corner, you change the size/proportion of the box but > > its perspective (i.e. VPs) remains the same. When you drag the VPs, > > you change perspective but the box size/proportions remain the same. > > Hmm. I wonder if you can keep proportions and perspective apart at all, > if you have no movable camera and no projection from a reference. That's the whole point of this tool. Our proposal is that yes, it's possible. We will try to prove it by coding :) > First image, if I drag the lower front corner, do I change perspective > or proportions? You make the box taller, but all VPs stay unomved. -- bulia byak Inkscape. Draw Freely. http://www.inkscape.org

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] [Fwd: Re: SoC proposal: ImageMagick effects in Inkscape]
by Gail Banaszkiewicz 24 Mar '07

24 Mar '07

> The text one looks like it may be taken too (by Gail). Yes, I am planning now to concentrate my efforts on this. I'm even working on a text bug as we speak ;) Gail >From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Mar 24 12:49:46 2007 Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:49:45 +0100 From: Thorsten Wilms <t_w_@...123...> To: inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net Message-ID: <20070324194945.GB4642@...1413...> References: <46055F5C.4020403@...173...> <20070324185647.GA4642@...1413...> <3c78ff030703241206y1a44bc8clb41f9885c63337b@...401...> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3c78ff030703241206y1a44bc8clb41f9885c63337b@...401...> Priority: normal X-Mailer: Mutt User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. Report problems to http://sf.net/tracker/?func=add&group_id=1&atid=200001 Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Illustrations for a planned 3D box tool (SoC) X-BeenThere: inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.8 Precedence: list Reply-To: t_w_@...123... List-Id: <inkscape-devel.lists.sourceforge.net> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel>, <mailto:inkscape-devel-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum=inkscape-devel> List-Post: <mailto:inkscape-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> List-Help: <mailto:inkscape-devel-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel>, <mailto:inkscape-devel-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 19:49:46 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline On Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 03:06:55PM -0400, bulia byak wrote: > > The text explains it: "doubleclicking on one of the green PLs, which > places the VP at the location where the click occurred" Oops :) > > The 2nd image is wrong, anyway, I think. > > The viewpoint would be above the box, as the top is shown slightly > > from above. The bottom must be farther away, then. So the VP for > > the vertical edges would be below, not above the box. > > I don't see anything wrong with this one. It's an unconventional > perspective but it's built according to the rules. The perspective is either impossible or it's not a box, so much is obvious for me. Now let's see ... the drawing is below the horizon, you can see the top, that means you look down on it. If you look down, the 3rd vanishing point must be below. Needs a nadir, not a zenith. http://www.khulsey.com/3_point_perspective.html But perhaps allowing such weird stuff makes things easier in the end. > We don't yet have the notion of horizon at all, at least at this basic > stage. Any pair of VPs can be taken to represent a horizon. The horizon is important. Take several boxes with non-parallel side walls as example: their VPs have to be on the same horizon. > > as the user will likely care more about the box. Because if you > > draw on paper, using construction boxes/lines, at least one VP > > would be far away from the paper in most cases. > > So what? In Inkscape you can always zoom out as far as you need and > still drag it freely. My point was not about a technical limitation, but the common practical approach to drawing in perspective: you draw a box and the VPs remain in your imagination only. The angles of the edges step into the fore- ground. > When you drag a corner, you change the size/proportion of the box but > its perspective (i.e. VPs) remains the same. When you drag the VPs, > you change perspective but the box size/proportions remain the same. Hmm. I wonder if you can keep proportions and perspective apart at all, if you have no movable camera and no projection from a reference. First image, if I drag the lower front corner, do I change perspective or proportions? -- Thorsten Wilms Thorwil's Creature Illustrations: http://www.printfection.com/thorwil

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] Illustrations for a planned 3D box tool (SoC)
by bulia byak 24 Mar '07

24 Mar '07

On 3/24/07, Thorsten Wilms <t_w_@...123...> wrote: > On Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 06:26:52PM +0100, Maximilian Albert wrote: > > > > http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~malbert/ > > I don't get how you change from 2-point to 3-point perspective > in the first 2 images. The text explains it: "doubleclicking on one of the green PLs, which places the VP at the location where the click occurred" > The 2nd image is wrong, anyway, I think. > The viewpoint would be above the box, as the top is shown slightly > from above. The bottom must be farther away, then. So the VP for > the vertical edges would be below, not above the box. I don't see anything wrong with this one. It's an unconventional perspective but it's built according to the rules. > I guess in most cases with 2-point perspective, lines for the > 3rd direction should be perpendicular to the horizon (has been > a while since I learned and used this stuff - with the excpeption > of quick hand-drawn approximations :) All directions and VPs are freely draggable. You can set them to whatever you want. If you want to rotate everything, preserving the angles between the VPs and directions, just rotate the object by Selector tool. > 1/2/3-point perspective should all be covered, IMHO. And they are. You can freely switch any dimension from infinity VP to visible VP and back. > I think the VPs and horizon should be treated as rather secondary, We don't yet have the notion of horizon at all, at least at this basic stage. Any pair of VPs can be taken to represent a horizon. VPs, on the other hand, are very fundamental for this tool. > as the user will likely care more about the box. Because if you > draw on paper, using construction boxes/lines, at least one VP > would be far away from the paper in most cases. So what? In Inkscape you can always zoom out as far as you need and still drag it freely. > The important > things are the size and proportions of the box Yes, for these we will also have handles to drag. They are just not illustrated yet :) > and the inclination > of the edges. And that is automatically determined from the VPs. > So I would like being able to move every corner, moving VPs > implicitly. When you drag a corner, you change the size/proportion of the box but its perspective (i.e. VPs) remains the same. When you drag the VPs, you change perspective but the box size/proportions remain the same. -- bulia byak Inkscape. Draw Freely. http://www.inkscape.org

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GSoC Proposal from a Minor :(
by Joel Snyder 24 Mar '07

24 Mar '07

Hey everyone, I'm brand new to the Inkscape development world, however, I have been interested in graphics since a very young age. I was on IRC earlier today asking around for advice on a python script for _Blender_ (Notice, not Inkscape) for a 3D `SVG' editor; more like : 1. An advanced hack for Blender to convert meshes to control points for a collection of Bézier patches. Then use the topology tools to project the NURB surface to a bunch of curves on a plane to save as an SVG file. Of course a few passes would need to be made, one for the outline as Bézier curves, one for textures, gradients, on and on as you wish ;) ! ^ -> .Blend to SVG 2. I haven't seen an SVG yet to this date that hasn't been HAND-coded to include great animation. This could be solved by use of using Blender's amazing animation/tracking/timeline UI as a most needed helper tool. ^-> SVG Animation 3. AIGLX/Beryl is teh man! (Sorry for incorrect grammar..) But it really is, and it attracts a lot of people looking for something pretty...now imagine if _artists_ could be drawn to a system like that... Sadly, however, my dreams of having this amazing UI of new dimensions, rotations, amazing color, and all of that, are still not progressing. As such, that makes me feel bad as a developer. SO, let's start working guys and girls! What we need are analogies for the UI! They allow the user to bootstrap (compiling lingo..) to unfamiliar systems. Simply, I want to help people learn how to use complex things such as boolean operations, multiple gradients, and _artistic/thoughtful_ simplicity while drawing...making a picture with 10E10 control verts is pointless unless you are mapping the [Hemi]spherical view of the Universe! In order to achieve this, we need to see what a picture is _made_ of. We need to see the back, front, top, bottom, middle, second to last!, basically _every_ perspective we can get of layers to help people visualize better what they are trying to make. Art isn't about efficiency or even skill to put something to paper....it's about the creativity that happens, expression of that should come through careful analysis of oneself , and through the education the community should be providing with tools to empower individuals (such as Inkscape). So we must make a `flipbook' or stack of transparent OpenGL canvases, that can be played with like cards in a deck. Or something natural like that...So they could have SVG `cards' we will call them, and you can rotate them in 3D, look at the next card underneath, etc! Now that is a productive use of technology that also makes windows wobbly.... :-/ ^-> SVG/OpenGL Intuitive interface... I have other ideas for graphics if anyone's interested...I dunno not many people _are_ interested in my ideas, haha. ==================================================================== The most Important part... ==================================================================== But basically, after finding that I need to concentrate on coding the Blender part of the code...making all the SVG effects from scratch would take quite a while for a little me! That's where I turn to you people. Somehow I want to connect the Inkscape codebase as well as the Blender sources to a common fork, at least. 2D vectors and 3D aren't that different after all ya know! Why can't we all be friends? ;) ==== P.S. ==== About SoC...I'm most certainly under 18, if you couldn't tell from my unarticulate diction, syntax, grammar, etc. Therefore, _if_ anyone wants to use these projects for it, you are free to do so since I am not eligible.

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