- Inkscape Devel - Inkscape Mailman

Layer Merging, and Merging Groups of layers.
by Alan Horkan 08 Mar '05

08 Mar '05

[sorry, deleted old posts had to start a new thread] I said I'd take a look at how Adobe Photoshop handles groups of Layers and I was able to check Adobe Photoshop 7 and to be honest I wasn't impressed. Adobe Photoshop allows you to have lots of seperate layers and it also allows you to create what looks like a folder in the Layer Palette so that you can put Layers inside the folder and group them together. What I'm unimpressed by is that they depending on what you have selected - a Layer or a Layer Group Folder - the menu entries for "Layer, Merge Down" (and the other one) dynamically change lables and offer to Merge Layer Set. (I'm not sure about the specific wording, I only have very limited access to proprietary multimedia software so I'm describing this from memory). If you are usign the Merge Down function and you hit a Layer Group in the stack you are stopped dead. No attempt is made to move into the group and merge the next layer, no prompt is given offering to merge the whole group or just the next layer. The workflow stops, dead end. Inkscape cannot copy the dynamically changing menu behaviour because dynamically changing menu items almost always make for a bad user interface and even worse accessibility. However I do think this could be done better, my initial suggestion would be if "Merge Down" hits a Layer Group there would be a prompt offering to "Merge Next Only" or "Merge Group" but it is only a suggestion as I'm fairly sure Bulia has some implementation ideas of his own Hope that helps. If you want me to get screenshots or try to better describe how Adobe Photoshop behaves please do ask. Sincerely Alan Horkan Inkscape, Draw Freely http://inkscape.org Abiword is Awesome http://www.abisource.com

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Fix for Inkscape execstack marking
by Mike Hearn 08 Mar '05

08 Mar '05

Hi, I have fixed the problem reported by Ivan Gyurdiev. As the MMX assembly does not appear to require an executable stack, the attached patch provides a .GNU-stack section allowing it to be protected. As you can see the stack is marked RW not RWE: mike@...646... src $ readelf -aW inkscape|grep GNU_STACK GNU_STACK 0x000000 0x00000000 0x00000000 0x00000 0x00000 RW 0x4 This patch will take effect in the autopackage nightly builds immediately (because that tree is where I wrote it). It's been put in the bug tracker here: https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1157714&group_id=… thanks -mike

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Open Clip Art Library Release 0.11 Announcement
by Jon Phillips 08 Mar '05

08 Mar '05

Open Clip Art Library Release 0.11 Announcement March 8, 2005 UTC - Release 0.11 of the Open Clip Art Library (www.openclipart.org) is now available for download on-line as an individual package consisting of 2896 images submitted by over 200 artists from around the world. Some of the new clip art received this month includes more images of food, computer-related items and even a little boombox. In addition to the collected 0.11 package, each clip art file can now be found by keywords using developer Jonadab's new Keyword Search Tool. The Open Clip Art Library is growing rapidly because of increasing submissions from artists. Currently, the top five artists in terms of the amount of clip art submitted are: Danny Allen (951 images), Nicu Buculei (456), Jose Hevia (453), Andy Fitzsimon (250), and Alan Horkan (119). These Artist's and others contributions are the life blood of the Library. While the critical unit of contribution in traditional Open Source is code, it is a little different with the Open Clip Art Library project in that an actual clip art donation is just as helpful as the code supporting it. For March the Open Clip Art Library encourages submissions of clip art related to the concept of "Spring." In the coming months as the library grows in size, the project needs new developers to help build tools to process this growing repository. Upcoming planned features that the project needs assistance on include capturing and tracking of clip art requests, user account management, adding WebDAV support, and developing wizards to aid in composition. Use the following URLs to download the latest release of the Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org/downloads/0.11/openclipart-0.11.tar.bz2 http://www.openclipart.org/downloads/0.11/openclipart-0.11.tar.gz http://www.openclipart.org/downloads/0.11/openclipart-0.11.zip http://www.openclipart.org/downloads/0.11/openclipart-tools.zip The Open Clip Art Library (http://www.openclipart.org/) aims to create an archive of clip art that can be used freely for any use. All graphics submitted to the project are placed into the Public Domain according to the Creative Commons Public Domain Declaration.

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] gradient tool bug
by bulia byak 07 Mar '05

07 Mar '05

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 23:19:26 +0100, Jakub Steiner <jimmac@...653...> wrote: > My question is exactly the other way around. If node editing tool is for > editing a shape, why have it define a gradient? In Sodipodi, you had to switch to node edit after having created a rectangle if you wanted to round corners. The rect tool could create a rect but not edit it. That was obviously crazy. I fixed that. Then we added on-canvas editing of pattern fills. It shows up whenever you have the shape handles or nodes (i.e. in node tool and all shape tools). This turned out to be quite convenient (at least for me). Now with gradients, I just followed the general trend, which is this: Each tool _creates_ objects of its type and allows for precise numerical control of them, but simple on-canvas _editing_ should be available everywhere for all objects. I think this is a good idea overall, though obviously in some cases it may lead to too much stuff on canvas. I don't think however that gradients are one of these cases. Does anyone else have an opinion? > sure about other artists, but I have a workflow where I first worry > about the shape and later on worry about the shading. I have no need to > be doing both at the same time. I often adjust shape and fill at the same time, and not having to switch tools is convenient for me. > > What about this: when no gradient handles are selected (all are > > white), it works as now. When a handle is selected (blue), the list > > will show (and let you change) the gradient definition for that > > handle's gradient. > > I fear this behavior isn't exactly obvious. Seeing that something is selected (blue) and assuming that the "Change" controls affect the selected thing is much more obvious IMHO than having some obscure "mode switch" in the toolbar. > What does showing both fill > and stroke gradients at the same time give you? It gives consistency and simplicity, above all. I select an object and I see _all_ of its gradients without having to think about modes and such. > The only thing obvious > to me is locking the vector of both gradients to be precisely the same. Yes, this is an advantage too. > Yet this is hardly an advantage even if it wasn't limited for both > having the same gradient applied (which is truly useless). It's not _thus_ limited. You can assign the different definitions to the gradients first and merge them after that. Even simpler, you can easily shift-drag one of the merged handles away, apply a different gradient to it, then merge it back. Then you will still be able to drag the merged gradients together, even though they will now have different gradient definitions. So it's not even a limitation, just a minor inconvenience. > I'm not > saying there isn't any. I just don't see it and I'm asking for a use > scenario. You said yourself (below) that merging gradients from different objects is useful. Now imagine that one of the objects is a fillless stroke and the other is a strokeless fill. I want to form a "virtual object" out of them by merging their gradient handles. With your proposal ("modes") this would be impossible - not just inconvenient but impossible. > I understand you have all this coded and you are motivated to justify > this design. In the end I will accept whatever there is, since I hardly > have any choice, but I strongly believe separating the two will lead to > a better interface that gives feedback on what's happening. I think it will just add a redundant control which will make the whole system less obvious and less discoverable by novices. I don't see what is the additional feedback that it will give you which my system would not give. > Snapping within multiple objects is useful for having a multiple object > form a "virtual" object. You may want to draw a car body structure and > keep the dashers separate. So the objects share the same shading. > > I don't see the need for having a precise snapping of stroke/fill > gradients if the gradient is supposed to be the same. In the end it just > gives the same result as having the object have no stroke. 1) Gradient definition does not have to be the same (see above) 2) Even if it's not useful for the same object's fill and stroke (I'm not sure why you think so, but OK), I think you can easily imagine wanting to form a "virtual object" from some objects without fill and others without stroke. > > Can you explain why would you need to switch a gradient from linear to > > radial, preserving the handle positions? This seems far-fetched to me. > > Why is this any better than simply drawing a new radial gradient for > > the same objects instead? > > See yourself adding the "New:" label? The interface doesn't speak on its > own, you had to describe its behavior because clicking on the button > doesn't give immediate feedback. You are right that in most cases I > continue to redesign the gradient placement, but the interface gave me > an immediate feedback on my actions as opposed to the current design. Even if I add a button to switch the selected gradient between linear and radial, this would be a separate button from the one which governs the newly created gradient. (Or are you proposing to always create linear and then, if needed, switch it to radial? That would be quite cumbersome.) And since the usefullness of the radial/linear switch for _existing_ gradients is not obvious to me, I think leaving only the control for _newly created_ gradients makes sense and reduces clutter. The fact that the "New:" part applies to newly created gradients is explained in the tooltips. Besides, this is consistent with the shape tools which, too, display "New:" when no objects of their type are selected, in which case adjusting the controls will affect newly created objects.

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--new-gui
by Bryce Harrington 07 Mar '05

07 Mar '05

I've fussed around with the autoconf/automake stuff and in theory now you should be able to run `inkscape --new-gui` and see something other than a segfault. If so, great, if not, lemme know. I suspect due to a newly added share/ui directory, you will probably need to re-run autogen.sh and configure. Bryce

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icons breakage
by bulia byak 07 Mar '05

07 Mar '05

Jon, in today's CVS: - There's a noticeable delay after the program window appears and before it shows icons in toolbars. It never happened before. - You removed the possibility for toolbars to be cut. Why? Now the window starts up wider than before, and if we add more controls to the selector toolbar it will have to be wider still. Moreover switching tools (e.g. switch to star) may resize the window, which is very annoying. Please fix this. Besides, you removed the only place where the "detach" flag was checked but did not remove its setting. This flag was added to make sure a detached toolbar is not cut while the attached one may be cut by the window. I think this must be restored.

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layer commands we need
by bulia byak 07 Mar '05

07 Mar '05

Here's a list of layer commands that we need to implement, comments and additions welcome: Layers... // opens the Layers dialog ------------------- Move to Layer Above Shift+PgUp // move selection to the top of sibling layer above, or to the top of parent layer (but not root) if no siblings Move to Layer Below Shift+PgDn // move selection to the top of sibling layer below, or to the bottom of parent layer (but not root) if no siblings Move to Layer... // let me choose the layer name to move selection to ------------------- Unlock All Layers // unlock all layers in the document (or all siblings of the current layer?) Unhide All Layers ------------------- Unlock All in Layer // unlock all children of the current layer Unhide All in Layer ------------------- Group to Layer // convert group to layer Layer to Group

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gradient bug? icons
by David Christian Berg 07 Mar '05

07 Mar '05

Hey guys, have a look at http://home.tu-clausthal.de/~dcb/gradients.png I've no clue, why that is... the one end is on top of the other, but instead of having just two plain areas it looks like in the screenshot. Anyways... icons: http://home.tu-clausthal.de/~dcb/icons.svg they still need some work, but... enjoy! David

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NEW: gradient tool
by bulia byak 06 Mar '05

06 Mar '05

New in CVS: The Gradient tool (Ctrl+F1 or the g key) is a new convenient way to create, edit, and manage gradients: o Simply drag anywhere on canvas to create a gradient on selected objects. Existing gradients can be edited by dragging their handles (as in any tool that has on-canvas gradient editing enabled). o The tool's controls bar lets you choose the type of the newly created gradients (linear or radial) and whether they will be applied to the objects' fill or stroke. o For the gradient(s) of selected object(s), you can choose one of the gradient definitions in the document from the drop-down list in the controls bar. The Fork button creates a copy of the selected gradient definition and applies it to the selected objects, which is useful when you have several objects sharing one gradient definition but want to change that. The Edit... button opens the gradient dialog where you can edit the gradient definition (add/move/delete stops and change colors and opacities of stops). o The selected (blue) on-canvas gradient handle can be moved by arrow keys with all the regular modifiers (Alt ro move by 1 screen pixel, Shift to move by 10 times the distance). The Tab and Shift+Tab keys let you move selection from one handle to the next or previous. This functionality is largely equivalent to that of the Fill&Stroke dialog, but is much more convenient. Still TODO: - toggle buttons for spread (none/reflect/repeat) - button/dialog to rename selected gradient definition - X/Y spinbuttons for the position of the selected handle - the ability to assign color to the selected handle, so it's possible to edit at least two-stop gradients without opening the gradient editor - additional draggable handles for multi-stop gradients Also today I eliminated the old gradient position widget in Fill&Stroke as redundant. I'm thinking about removing the remaining gradient controls there too ("vector" list, Add/Edit, spread) because they are a duplication of what is available in the gradient tool, and have no added advantages in the dialog. All these changes were rather disruptive, so please test everything thoroughly. Of course any feedback on the usability, terminology (e.g. I had to invent the term "gradient definition" for that color strip with stops that can be applied to objects' gradients; Sodipodi termed them "vectors" which is incredibly misleading), or anything else is welcome.

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mozilla futures
by Jon Phillips 06 Mar '05

06 Mar '05

You guys might have a look through these slides to see about mozilla + svg developments: http://www.mozilla.org/events/dev-day-feb-2004/mozilla-futures/ As you all know, mozilla svg is in the mozilla trunk now. Jon -- Jon Phillips USA PH 510.499.0894 jon@...235... http://www.rejon.org Inkscape (http://inkscape.org) Open Clip Art Library (www.openclipart.org) CVS Book (http://cvsbook.ucsd.edu) Scale Journal (http://scale.ucsd.edu)

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Inkscape crash while drawing a gradient
by Jean-François Lemaire 06 Mar '05

06 Mar '05

I just made Inkscape CVS crash while "drawing" a gradient. Here is the output from the terminal: (inkscape:21590): GLib-GObject-WARNING **: invalid uninstantiatable type `(null)' in cast to `GObject' (inkscape:21590): GLib-GObject-CRITICAL **: file gobject.c: line 1642 (g_object_get_data): assertion `G_IS_OBJECT (object)' failed ** ERROR **: file desktop-handles.cpp: line 31 (SPSelection* sp_desktop_selection(SPDesktop*)): assertion failed: (desktop != NULL) aborting... Emergency save activated! Cheers, Jef

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Hacking on icon stuff
by Jon A. Cruz 05 Mar '05

05 Mar '05

Just wanted to let people know I'm in the middle of hacking on icon loading. My immediate goal was to get rid of the ugly rescaling and blurring of the stock icons. But in doing that I should also be able to get rid of all hardcoding of sizes. So... all the SP_ICON_SIZE_* defines are about to dissapear, and their use should be replaced with the logical GTK_ICON_SIZE_* defines in many places. In many other places, hardcoded sizes should just dissappear.

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Some icons for the layer menu
by Jean-François Lemaire 05 Mar '05

05 Mar '05

Hello, I just finished drawing some simple icons for the layer menu; it looks too empty to my taste. I don't know if they will be of any use, but anyway, where can I post them for the world to see? The SVG is 47K. Cheers, Jef

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Potrace 1.6, first try
by Bob Jamison 05 Mar '05

05 Mar '05

Peter Selinger recently released v1.6 of his tracing engine. I think that it is fairly well interfaced with our stuff, though I did have some problems with CVS. I -think- that the build is working fine again now, but in case any turn up missing while I am gone, I left a copy of the subtree here: http://troi.hous.es3.titan.com/inkscape/files/trace.tgz Just replace the missing files, not the whole thing. By the way, the tracing is MUCH faster now. Bob

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Builds
by Bob Jamison 04 Mar '05

04 Mar '05

I have been more regular with Win32 builds lately in this dir: http://troi.hous.es3.titan.com/inkscape/builds Just look for the latest InkscapeYYMMDDhhmm.zip file. The one for this morning is: http://troi.hous.es3.titan.com/inkscape/builds/Inkscape0503040733.zip In the very near future, I'm going to attempt to gather and build -all- of the sources to get gtkmm/libxml/etc working on W32 without the use of other people's binaries (OPB), so that we can have a clean dependency tree of our own. Maybe supply a single source bundle and a build script to simplify the build for others. On another note, I also occasionally build a copy of firefox with svg/cairo on FC3. It seems to work on my recent Gentoo install nicely, too. It is here: http://troi.hous.es3.titan.com/inkscape/files/firefox-i686-linux-gtk2+xft+s… (built today). I attached the .mozconfig that made it, in case anyone wants to build their own. A good test is to look at the svg files on http://croczilla.com/svg Bob . $topsrcdir/browser/config/mozconfig mk_add_options MOZ_OBJDIR=@TOPSRCDIR@/objdir ac_add_options --enable-svg ac_add_options --enable-svg-renderer-cairo ac_add_options --enable-system-cairo ac_add_options --disable-ldap ac_add_options --disable-calendar ac_add_options --disable-mailnews ac_add_options --enable-extensions="cookie,xml-rpc,xmlextras,pref,transformiix,universalchardet,webservices,inspector,gnomevfs,negotiateauth" ac_add_options --enable-crypto ac_add_options --disable-composer ac_add_options --enable-single-profile ac_add_options --disable-profilesharing ac_add_options --disable-shared ac_add_options --enable-static ac_add_options --disable-debug ac_add_options --enable-toolkit-gtk2 ac_add_options --enable-default-toolkit=gtk2 ac_add_options --enable-xft ac_add_options --disable-freetype2 ac_add_options --disable-tests ac_add_options --disable-accessibility ac_add_options --disable-installer ac_add_options --enable-strip ac_add_options --disable-toolkit-qt #ac_add_options --enable-optimize="-O2 -march=i686" ac_add_options --enable-optimize="-O2" ac_add_options --enable-official-branding

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Website news section CMS
by Jonathan Leighton 04 Mar '05

04 Mar '05

We previously discussed the idea of using a CMS such as WordPress to handle the news part of the Inkscape website. No real conclusion was reached, so I thought I'd send out this email asking for votes/opinions for and against. If we decide to go for it then I could probably get it done this weekend. Cheers, Jon -- Jonathan Leighton aka. Turnip http://turnipspatch.com/ | http://digital-proof.org/

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Donation received
by Bryce Harrington 04 Mar '05

04 Mar '05

I got a donation from 'OSDN / VA Software' for Inkscape the other day, in the amount of $3.54 ($5 less PP/SF fees). I'm not sure what to do with it... I'll hold onto it for now until we either get a general fund set up, or it's needed for something for the project. The breakdown of the transaction appears below: Donated amount...........................: $5.00 PayPal fee...............................: $0.46 SourceForge.net fee......................: $1.00 TOTAL TO YOU.............................: $3.54 Comment from the donator: make inkscape even better - be blessed! Thank you The SourceForge.net Team Bryce

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Inkscape Project Status Mar 1st
by Bryce Harrington 04 Mar '05

04 Mar '05

Well, SourceForge is still way behind in their stats, but here's the rest of the stats. Statistics Jan 15 Feb 1 Feb 15 Mar 1 ========== ====== ===== ====== ===== Lifetime Rank on SourceForge: 570 569 * * (96.0%) (96.0%) * * Max Week's Rank on SourceForge: 59 * * * (99.6%) * * * Total SF Page Views 2,283,160 2,296,458 * * Total SF Downloads 114,695 115,645 * * Total Freshmeat URL Hits 14,634 15,108 16,448 16,885 Total Freshmeat Subscriptions 151 156 169 173 Lines of Code in src/: 323,251 323,324 333,139 338,993 Code lines 227,965 227,872 234,651 238,641 Comment line 56,308 56,438 58,239 59,589 Blank 45,664 45,624 46,859 47,484 Lines of Docs in doc/: 17,901 17,918 26,848 26,848 Lines of content in website: 9,328 9,486 9,776 9,979 Size of the Inkscape wiki: 20,931 23,576 24,925 25,094 Bugs open/total: 145/858 148/917 155/972 177/1019 Features open/total: 353/530 352/556 370/579 384/ 602 Patches open/total: 6/148 7/154 5/167 6/ 170 CVS Commits (as per inkscape-cvs) 9,625 9,975 10,312 10,600 Inkscape-devel membership: 131 143 151 152 Inkscape-announce membership: 155 166 169 171 Inkscape-user membership: 177 181 193 201 Num Translations: 33 33 33 33 Ave Translation Ratio: 42.0 44.7 47.8 45.0 * - Statistics unavailable

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[osdl_staff] 2005 desktop developer's conference announced (fwd)
by Bryce Harrington 03 Mar '05

03 Mar '05

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 09:57:55 -0800 From: Randy.Dunlap <rddunlap@...1...> To: osdl_staff@...1... Subject: [osdl_staff] 2005 desktop developer's conference announced http://www.desktopcon.org/2005/ -- ~Randy _______________________________________________ osdl_staff mailing list osdl_staff@...701... http://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/osdl_staff

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URGENT BREAKAGE: preferences loading/saving
by bulia byak 01 Mar '05

01 Mar '05

Someone's recent change (likely the repr changes by swingincelt) broke preferences loading and saving. Now upon exit, a new <inkscape> element with all its children is nested at the end of the ~/.inkscape/preferences.xml instead of replacing the existing <inkscape>. Thus the size of the file grows by 13K on each run of the program, and any changes you make to the prefs are not read next time you run. Please fix ASAP.

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Adobe Illustrator CS SVG files + incompatibility
by Jon Phillips 28 Feb '05

28 Feb '05

My girlfriend just made all these images for the clipart library by tracing them in Inkscape (rock!) and then editing and composing them with Adobe Illustrator CS. However, they cannot be opened in Inkscape. I'm writing this to let everyone know that there are about 10 images available at this link, http://openclipart.org/submissions.php, done by Linda Kim that would be good for testing interoperability of Adobe SVG and Inkscape. I created a bug on this and a new category for import bugs. If this one fits your fancy, it should be easy to write a script to strip out what Inkscape doesn't support, as can be done by hand in a text editor. However, to get Inkscape to allow for various unsupported features, or compliant svg that we don't suppor yet, might be more difficult. http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1153207&group_id=9… Also, if anyone needs more examples, I can get those created in Adobe Illustrator CS. Jon -- Jon Phillips USA PH 510.499.0894 jon@...235... http://www.rejon.org Inkscape (http://inkscape.org) Open Clip Art Library (www.openclipart.org) CVS Book (http://cvsbook.ucsd.edu) Scale Journal (http://scale.ucsd.edu)

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Inkscape.org and the image/svg+xml mimetype
by Bob Jamison 28 Feb '05

28 Feb '05

Could someone please add these entries to /htdocs/.htaccess on the web site? AddType image/svg+xml .svg AddType image/svg+xml .svgz Inkscape.org can't serve svg at the moment, which can potentially be embarassing. ;-) This might need to be added to the wiki code, too. Bob

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SVG+Xforms demo
by Bob Jamison 27 Feb '05

27 Feb '05

One of the guys on irc.mozilla.org/#svg (nick: woo) showed me a demo of svg-enabled Firefox with the xforms extension from mozilla.org. It is a little calculator demo, implemented using svg and xforms. Very nice. http://artforms.progressivex.com/mozilla/svgcalc.xml Bob

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web site proposals
by bulia byak 27 Feb '05

27 Feb '05

I'd like to propose two things regarding the Inkscape web site. Volunteers are welcome: 1 Create an RSS feed for the main page news. 2 Create a new header graphic to replace the boring white "Inkscape" on blue. As a graphic app, we are starting to deserve something more sophisticated. The web site itself is OK, I don't think we need to drastically change the entire design (although suggestions are welcome), but the top panel is decidedly dull and pathetic. Show off your graphic talent! Send your submissions to the devel list for people to discuss. The best one (if the winner is not obvious, we may need to do a voting) will make it to the site. One technical note: the banner cannot be fixed width, because our site is not fixed width - so it must be either one piece for the top left corner or two pieces for two corners, with some flat color fill between them. The minimum screen resolution is 800x600.

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Press: Inkscape in Linux User and Developer magazine
by Alan Horkan 27 Feb '05

27 Feb '05

[If you do setup an RSS news feed using open source tools like Word Press I like to be allowed to post information like this.] Press: Inkscape in Linux User and Developer magazine Issue 47 http://www.linuxuser.co.uk/ "Graphic designer Miriam Clinton investigates the free software tools of her trade with a look at the Gimp, Cinepaint, Quanta Plus, Inkscape and Sodipodi." One of the plus points mentioned in the article and in noticable contrast to other projects was the welcome Miriam recieved from the Inkscape community (and the efforts to get her involved). I'm very proud of this ditinction and I think a lot of it can be put down to the maturity of Bryce and the other developers who always moderate dicussions and keep things calm and in perspective. I think this is a valuable asset to the long term health of the Inkscape project. She expressed her disappointment at the Text functionality but as we all know it is a work in progress and the interface will inevitably improve and Ms. Clinton did note that Inkscape is a fairly young 'alpha' stage project and gave a largely favourable and optimistic report. In comparision I think she was quite critical of GIMP, CinePaint and Sodipodi which is quite fair from the point of view of a Graphic designer but usually Linux magazines are very forgiving of Open Source applications (Graphic design magazines are usually extremely critical -- freedom of source and free cost doesn't cut any ice with them -- a flamefest even by comparison to Miriams review). Gotta go. Sincerely Alan Horkan http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ Inkscape, Draw Freely http://inkscape.org Abiword is Awesome http://abisource.com

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