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Re: [Inkscape-devel] Inkscape review
by bulia byak 15 May '04

15 May '04

>When I was doing icon/verb work, I had suggested "Duplicate Window", >which to me says I'm going to get another window, and it's going to be >the same as what I have right now. However, this may not indicate to >other people that it will contain a independently-controlled view of the >same data. (Although I think "Duplicate Window" is more informative >than "New Window" or "New View", it is probably still incomplete.) I cannot think up a way in which a new window would not be an "independently-controlled view of the same data", so I think "Duplicate Window" is perfectly adequate. >Perhaps "Duplicate View Window"? Or "Duplicate Window View"? Ew :) >(Can't we >have menu-based tool tips?) We do. Watch your statusbar as you walk through the menu. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the MSN Premium and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=ht…

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RE: [Inkscape-devel] Inkscape review
by bulia byak 15 May '04

15 May '04

> * The "Text and Font..." dialog was really difficult for me to find; > I assumed it'd be under the Object menu and had to look through > all the other menus before I found it under Edit. It was also > strange that it was at the bottom of the Edit menu instead of at > the top, like the property dialogs in the Object menu. That's a temporary location. We will have a Text menu later and it will move there. But I agree that Object is a better temporary location for Text and Font. > * Now, of anyone, I probably know best where the marker settings are, > however it really seemed hard to get to. I kept thinking, "Hmm, > where's the line properties again? Oh yeah, the Fill dialog > box..." I'm not sure how this could be improved but it struck me > as counter intuitive. It might make sense to separate a Stroke dialog from a Color dialog, with Color having two tabs for fill and stroke. But I don't want to multiply dialogs unless we have ways to combine/dock/rearrange them easily. > * The right-click context menu needs a *lot* of attention. With the > dialog menu being moved to other menus (which is a great > improvement), I found that I kept wishing to have various things > available from the context menu. True, this is because this is one of the few UI element that I never touched :) and that is because I never use it. Whoever wants to improve it, go ahead, this should not be difficult. > * I pulled up the keyboard shortcuts page, and it's great that it's > so complete, and of course it's beautiful in SVG. However, I found > it very difficult to find stuff in it. There's just sooo much > text... I wanted to search the document but of course we don't > have a ctrl-f Find or ctrl-s Search command Searching in text is certainly doable. Someone simply needs to code it. > * The Object Properties dialog is very odd to me. It *seems* like > for a basic user this would have some very handy and useful things > on it for customizing the way my object looks, but when I look at > it, it's full of rather esoteric features. Another dialog I did not touch. Actually I thought to eliminate it at first, but then decided that it should stay, but completely redesigned. For one thing it will present all cascaded CSS properties for the object (pending AST/libcroco rearchitecturing). The redesign has not started yet :) > What does "printable" > mean, for instance? Does this mean it will show up on the screen > but not the printer? Probably. I never looked into it. Also the "visible" checkbox is always disabled because it's not yet implemented (I don't want to borrow that code from Sodi because it uses sodipodi:visible attribute which is sure to have problems rendering in other viewers). >Also, on the context menu it's called "Item > Properties" but pulls up the Object Properties dialog. Weird! Yep, the context menu needs to take command names and shortcuts from verbs, just as the regular menu does. Volunteers? > would expect the Object Properties dialog to allow me some sort of > way to get to things like text, color, line style, transform, etc. No, it's not an all-in-one dialog. Rather it's supposed to present a bit more low-level access to an object, although higher level than XML editor. > * Shouldn't New Window really be called Duplicate Window or Clone > Window or something? I assumed this command would do the same as > New. Duplicate Window maybe. Anyone else has an opinion? >2. I notice the performance isn't quite as "snappy" as I seem to remember. >Perhaps a consequence of fixing bugs? It's not horrible, but >noticeable. It's a consequence of Fred's new renderer. >3. For the life of me, I've never been able to figure out how to get the >inset, outset, and offset commands to work. I'm sure if I studied the >tutorial I'd figure it out, or if I've used something like them before >in other apps. It "feels" like I should be able to apply it to a path >but that doesn't seem to work right. What exactly does not work? >4. The star tool is set to remember its settings, which seems like a great >idea, but it's really weird to start up a fresh Inkscape and click on it >and instead of getting a five pointed star, to get whatever shape it was >you made the last time you used it. This seems highly inconsistent with >the way the rect and circle tools work - they always give you what you >see on the icon bar. No. They remember their settings too. Try to round a rect's corners and make an arc out of a circle, and you'll get the same next time. So it's all consistent, and I think it's much better that way. The ability to always get "five pointed star" is only good for demos, not for real work. Besides, all these tools have a button on the top panel which resets you to the defaults by a single click. >5. I think we need to rethinkify the calligraphic tool. I played with it >for half an hour to see if I could get something worth putting in the >article but didn't like anything I made. Does anyone use this? What is >it useful for? I wrote about that here. It's a tool created by a person who's not with us, and its code is dense and hard to figure out. More importantly, the tool is fundamentally flawed since it creates filled paths and not paths with shape that would be editable as any other paths. A completely new approach to calligraphic/shaped strokes is in long-term plans, but until then, this tool will have to stay. >6. The undo system can be kind of quirky. For example, click on the line >drawing tool. Draw one line. Start drawing another one but before you >end it, hit Ctrl-Z. Instead of the current line going away, the first >one you drew disappears. And no amount of undoing/redoing seems to be >able to bring it back. Because the second line is not created yet. It's just a plan for a line, not a real object. The last real line you created was the first one. If you want to cancel your non-finished line, press Esc, not Ctrl-Z. > * First, as mentioned above, it's really hard to get to the marker > settings. I keep expecting to right click on my line and hit, > "Marker Properties" or "Arrowheads" or something. Those who wish to work on right-click menu, take note :) > * Strangely, when I was doing the article, all the marker previews > were of the club symbol. But now for some reason they all work > right. Has anyone else noticed this behavior? Carl says he fixed this yesterday. I never got this bug so I cannot attest. > * If you select to turn off Stroke Paint, the marker dropdowns on the > Stroke style page become inactive, yet the line still shows its > arrowheads. Does not happen to me. Clicking on the X button in Stroke Paint makes both the path and its markers disappear. Can you submit a test case where this happens? > of stroke color, so this is super counter-intuitive. I'd suggest > this: Move the marker dropdowns to their own tab, separate from > Stroke style, and make them not become invalid when the stroke > paint is turned off. No, they really belong together with the rest of stroke settings. Separating them only for the purpose of non-graying is wrong. >It'd be wonderful if you could choose the > marker colors for each marker type on that tab page. Yes we have a bug on that. It's not straightforward (SVG does not do that automatically) but I think we can work around that, e.g. by duplicating a marker def and repainting it to match the stroke color. > * For the 'None' setting in the marker dropdown, perhaps show a stub > line with no marker on it. I think that would distract. "None" needs to really stand out, i.e. be unlike all other items. > * The ordering of the markers in the dropdown seems strange. > Partially they're alphabetized, but it feels like they really ought > to be organized by category. They are categorized, more or less. First arrows, then geometric marks, then miscellanea. Within each type, three sizes are arranged from largerst to smallest (hmmm, maybe reverse that?) Also the markers in the current document come first; we need a separator between them and the stock markers. > * The symbols for DistanceRight and DistanceLeft don't really > illustrate the effect. Also, perhaps these could be called > DimensionLeft and DimensionRight? They're too big to fit into the preview. As for the rename, OK with me. > * The arrow style markers work wrong. The tip of the arrow should be > located at the end node of the line. Instead, the end node is at > the middle of the arrowhead. This means that if you draw a line to > a box, and then put an arrowhead on it, the arrowhead will be > partially *inside* the box. We discussed this with Carl recently. The problem is that if you move the marker so its tip coincides with the tip of the line, you can't get a sharp tip for your arrow because the line will show through at the tip. There's no easy workaround for this, and the sharper is your arrow, the farther back you need to move the line end from the tip of that arrow. > * I half expected to be able to hit the "Convert Object to Path" > button and be able to have the marker converted into node path for > manual editing. No idea if that'd actually be of real value, > though. It's in the bug tracker. > * Since there's a None setting for markers, it feels like there > should similarly be a None setting for Stroke pattern, that'd make > the line go away. I wanted to create an object that consisted only > of mid-markers with no actual line. Yes, I wanted to make such a dasharray, but there is currently a bug in rendering zero-length dashes. When that bug is fixed I will add it to the list. > * Instead of making the dropdowns fit the page width, could they be > sized to match the contents? Also, I notice some of the larger > marker previews are cropped - could the dropdown be sized based on > the size of the largest marker? Then you'll have really huge menus because the distance markers are huge. Obviously all marker previews must be in the same scale, but since some of them are very small and some are large, we need a compromise. The size can be tweaked, but cropping the too large ones is inevitable I think. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the MSN Premium and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=ht…

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Inkscape review
by Bryce Harrington 15 May '04

15 May '04

Hi all, In writing up an article about Inkscape (for LWN hopefully), I took some time to play with a wider variety of features than I normally do, and thought about how new users (like LWN's Grumpy Editor) would approach the tool in general. So I figured I'd share my random thoughts and comments. First let me preface by saying that like everyone else I love the new features and the direction Inkscape's going. It's improved bunches in the months that this project has been active, and it's amazing to realize how much energy has been invested into it. ----- 1. I don't use the software intently enough to have memorized a significant number of the keyboard shortcuts, so I'm still very much a menu-oriented person, so my first comments regard menu items: * The "Text and Font..." dialog was really difficult for me to find; I assumed it'd be under the Object menu and had to look through all the other menus before I found it under Edit. It was also strange that it was at the bottom of the Edit menu instead of at the top, like the property dialogs in the Object menu. * Now, of anyone, I probably know best where the marker settings are, however it really seemed hard to get to. I kept thinking, "Hmm, where's the line properties again? Oh yeah, the Fill dialog box..." I'm not sure how this could be improved but it struck me as counter intuitive. * The right-click context menu needs a *lot* of attention. With the dialog menu being moved to other menus (which is a great improvement), I found that I kept wishing to have various things available from the context menu. * I pulled up the keyboard shortcuts page, and it's great that it's so complete, and of course it's beautiful in SVG. However, I found it very difficult to find stuff in it. There's just sooo much text... I wanted to search the document but of course we don't have a ctrl-f Find or ctrl-s Search command * The Object Properties dialog is very odd to me. It *seems* like for a basic user this would have some very handy and useful things on it for customizing the way my object looks, but when I look at it, it's full of rather esoteric features. What does "printable" mean, for instance? Does this mean it will show up on the screen but not the printer? Also, on the context menu it's called "Item Properties" but pulls up the Object Properties dialog. Weird! I would expect the Object Properties dialog to allow me some sort of way to get to things like text, color, line style, transform, etc. * Shouldn't New Window really be called Duplicate Window or Clone Window or something? I assumed this command would do the same as New. 2. I notice the performance isn't quite as "snappy" as I seem to remember. Perhaps a consequence of fixing bugs? It's not horrible, but noticeable. 3. For the life of me, I've never been able to figure out how to get the inset, outset, and offset commands to work. I'm sure if I studied the tutorial I'd figure it out, or if I've used something like them before in other apps. It "feels" like I should be able to apply it to a path but that doesn't seem to work right. 4. The star tool is set to remember its settings, which seems like a great idea, but it's really weird to start up a fresh Inkscape and click on it and instead of getting a five pointed star, to get whatever shape it was you made the last time you used it. This seems highly inconsistent with the way the rect and circle tools work - they always give you what you see on the icon bar. 5. I think we need to rethinkify the calligraphic tool. I played with it for half an hour to see if I could get something worth putting in the article but didn't like anything I made. Does anyone use this? What is it useful for? 6. The undo system can be kind of quirky. For example, click on the line drawing tool. Draw one line. Start drawing another one but before you end it, hit Ctrl-Z. Instead of the current line going away, the first one you drew disappears. And no amount of undoing/redoing seems to be able to bring it back. 7. I played around with gradients bunches and bunches. I know folks think this could use a lot of improvement, but I found it pretty easy to figure out how to make it work and get good results out of it. Of course, I've been using it for years so probably have too much insider knowledge, but it seemed to do what I needed. 8. Ditto for node editing. 10. Now for comments about markers. :-) I love all the work that's gone into markers. It's awesome to finally see them in play, especially since I know first hand how non-trivial it is to get them to do what we need. I love that finally I can put arrows on lines! But, that said I have lots of comments: * First, as mentioned above, it's really hard to get to the marker settings. I keep expecting to right click on my line and hit, "Marker Properties" or "Arrowheads" or something. * Strangely, when I was doing the article, all the marker previews were of the club symbol. But now for some reason they all work right. Has anyone else noticed this behavior? * If you select to turn off Stroke Paint, the marker dropdowns on the Stroke style page become inactive, yet the line still shows its arrowheads. Of course, the arrowheads are always black regardless of stroke color, so this is super counter-intuitive. I'd suggest this: Move the marker dropdowns to their own tab, separate from Stroke style, and make them not become invalid when the stroke paint is turned off. It'd be wonderful if you could choose the marker colors for each marker type on that tab page. * For the 'None' setting in the marker dropdown, perhaps show a stub line with no marker on it. * The ordering of the markers in the dropdown seems strange. Partially they're alphabetized, but it feels like they really ought to be organized by category. * The symbols for DistanceRight and DistanceLeft don't really illustrate the effect. Also, perhaps these could be called DimensionLeft and DimensionRight? * The arrow style markers work wrong. The tip of the arrow should be located at the end node of the line. Instead, the end node is at the middle of the arrowhead. This means that if you draw a line to a box, and then put an arrowhead on it, the arrowhead will be partially *inside* the box. * I half expected to be able to hit the "Convert Object to Path" button and be able to have the marker converted into node path for manual editing. No idea if that'd actually be of real value, though. * Since there's a None setting for markers, it feels like there should similarly be a None setting for Stroke pattern, that'd make the line go away. I wanted to create an object that consisted only of mid-markers with no actual line. I achieved it by turning the stroke color to none on the other tab, but that didn't seem like the most intuitively obvious way to do it. * Instead of making the dropdowns fit the page width, could they be sized to match the contents? Also, I notice some of the larger marker previews are cropped - could the dropdown be sized based on the size of the largest marker? Anyway, that's that. I know a lot of these things are already in our tracker and todo list, or have very good reasons for being the way they are, but those are my thoughts on it. Oh, and btw, if you'd like a preview of the article, her ya go: http://www.bryceharrington.com/Booleans_article/inkscape_booleans.html I've sent an inquiry to LWN to see if they'd be interested in running it, and plan to have it polished up and published somewhere within a week or so. Bryce

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] Inkscape review
by bulia byak 15 May '04

15 May '04

>No, I know this can be made to work right because I had it behaving >correctly when I first got marker rendering working. If I recall, >there's an offset parameter that can be used in the <def>. If nobody >else gets around to it before me, I'll fiddle around with it, I don't >think it'll be difficult to fix. Offset just moves your marker relative to the node, just as it is moved now. It won't help with the non-sharp tip problem for arrows. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Premium with Virus Guard and Firewall* from McAfee� Security : 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=ht…

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] list of arrows looks strange (snapshot20040510)
by bulia byak 15 May '04

15 May '04

> > > ...and one more thing: I can't change the colour of the arrow - the >line > > > colour changes but the arrow stays black. Actually SVG does not require markers to take the color of the stroke automatically. So this is not a compliance bug. But I agree that the stroke paint, when changed, should also apply to the markers. Please file a RFE on that. >The list of arrows in "stroke style" looks strange (snapshot 20040510) - >see the attachment. I can't reproduce that. Anyone else? _________________________________________________________________ MSN Premium: Up to 11 personalized e-mail addresses and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=ht…

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] Inkscape review
by bulia byak 15 May '04

15 May '04

>> * Shouldn't New Window really be called Duplicate Window or Clone >> Window or something? I assumed this command would do the same as >> New. >> >> >New View? It was New Vew before, I renamed it to New Window because that is what it actually does. >Problem here is the SVG spec - the end of the arrow would then always be as >wide as the line. I think we can really only hack around this by allowing >the user to drag the path by the tip of the marker. I'm against that. It would be very hacky, unreliable, and difficult to implement (how would you define "tip of the marker"? It can be an arbitrary shape). _________________________________________________________________ http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=ht…

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RE: [Inkscape-devel] Inkscape review
by bulia byak 15 May '04

15 May '04

>Maybe the Keys and Mouse should be broken into two items > >* Keyboard Shortcuts > >* Mouse Shortcuts No, that would be really unnatural division. If you want to divide it, use the groups defined in it (tools, objects, canvas etc). _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN Premium http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=ht…

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] window layout configurable
by bulia byak 14 May '04

14 May '04

>Let me see if I have this straight. When hitting 'Save As...' the >directory should be: > >1) The directory that it was last saved in Yes, it's stored in sodipodi:docbase attribute >2) The directory that the last save was done in >3) The user's home directory Yes, in that order. >Also, what should export do? I'm thinking that, most of the time, >you'll want to export to the same directory as the file? I think a similar order of preference would be the best: 1. The directory where the file was last exported (this may be stored e.g. in inkscape:export-dir attribute) 2. If it wasn't exported yet, the directory where the file was saved 3. Failing that, home dir _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN Premium http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=ht…

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[Fwd: <nettime-ann> [event] 19th May: Freestyle - FLOSS In Design]
by Jon Phillips 14 May '04

14 May '04

We are starting to get airtime in art circles. :) Read below for inkscape mention. I met a guy at the pub tonight who had a creative commons shirt on and he new about the new Open Clip Art Library and was so ecstatic to meet someone who is involved in both projects and open content...very interesting... Jon -----Forwarded Message----- > From: matthew fuller <fuller@...353...> > To: nettime-ann@...354... > Subject: <nettime-ann> [event] 19th May: Freestyle - FLOSS In Design > Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 08:05:15 -0500 > > > Freestyle - FLOSS In Design > > A seminar on Free, Libre and Open Source Software in Design > > Over the last few years 'Free Libre and Open Source Software' FLOSS, a > form of collaborative software development has proven itself as a driving > force of digital networks, especially the internet. Now this approach is > beginning to open up new approaches in design and visual culture. This > seminar will present clear information on this software and how it both > challenges and provides new opportunities for media design. > > Art and design work using computers can often get stuck in the use of the > same old tools. One thing that FLOSS does is to allow for new ideas to > become software on a much faster timescale and with less reliance on > conforming to a 'mass' market. Learning design increasingly means > learning to use the applications of a smaller and smaller amount of > companies. FLOSS offers one possibility for escaping such a trap. > > At the same time FLOSS itself could do with a good dose of design. Born > as it is through the energy and imagination of software developers, FLOSS > can in some cases fall behind in meeting the needs of users who aren't > also programmers. On the one hand this creates an important demand for > greater technical literacy amongst users, but it also means that > interfaces to, for instance, cultural practices, need creating. > > The morning session will present an introduction to FLOSS software in > design. The emphasis is on a realistic survey of the possibilities this > way of working is opening up. > > The afternoon will present a number of case studies. Artists and > designers using FLOSS software will show and talk about the tools they > work with, the culture of use of the software. Software developers will > present their projects and open them up to questions and debate. > > Speakers: > Kit Blake - Silva, content management system, Rotterdam; > http://www.infrae.com > > Erik Dooper - Open Source Software Lab, Amsterdam, will demo Scribus, > SodiPodi and Inkscape. DTP and vector graphics applications. > http://www.ossl.org/ > > Rishab Aiyer Ghosh - Economist and editor of FirstMonday, Maastricht; > http://orbiten.org/rishab.html > > Graham Harwood - artist, London, speaking about The GIMP, image > manipulation software; > http://www.scotoma.org/ > > Jaromil - GNU/Linux developer, South Italy, currently resident at > Montevideo, Amsterdam; Dynebolic, > http://www.dyne.org/ > > Willi LeMaitre & Eric Rosenzweig - PlayList, software tools for > collaborative video work; > http://www.w----e.net > > Roger Teeuwen - Graphic Designer, Rotterdam > > Antoine van de Ven - V2_Lab, Rotterdam, presents V2_Jam, research on > combining and integrating open source media software; http://lab.v2.nl > > Wednesday, May 19 | 10.30 - 17.00hrs | V2 Eendrachtstraat 10 | > Rotterdam > Fee for the day: 5euro, 2.50euro concessions > Advance Reservations: Eliane Roest (V2_), (010) 206 72 72, eliane at > v2.nl > > This seminar is jointly held by: > Media Design Research, Piet Zwart Institute http://pzwart.wdka.hro.nl/ > Interactive Media, Hogeschool van Amsterdam http://www.hva.nl/ > V2_Organisation, Institute for the Unstable Media http://www.v2.nl/ > > STREAM: This seminar will be streamed via http://www.v2.nl/live/ > _______________________________________________ > nettime-ann mailing list > nettime-ann@...354... > http://www.nettime.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nettime-ann -- Jon Phillips Graduate Researcher Visual Arts Department PO BOX 948667 LA JOLLA, CA 92037 USA cell.858.361.2811 jon@...235... http://www.rejon.org

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] window layout configurable
by Peter Linnell 14 May '04

14 May '04

> Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 01:27:36 -0700 > From: "Ted Gould" <ted@...11...> > To: inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] window layout configurable > > > --=-D6IVPrKjlX/peJPMF1l6 > Content-Type: text/plain > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > On Thu, 2004-05-13 at 00:17, bulia byak wrote: > > >2. When saving a document, suggest a name like "untitled.svg". > >=20 > > Ted, is this hard to do? > > Okay, I think that this is in CVS right now. Good idea, but I would extend this a bit more, append a -1 and a function to auto-increment the number to the file name for a given session. <snip> > I also changed it so that > the save directory defaults to your home directory instead of the pwd.=20 > I don't know if that is a good thing or not. It is probably more > intuitive for new users - but it is not how other applications work. > > --Ted Err. No. Very bad behavior IMO. Especially with any kind of program which works with images, art or remotely touches DTP. Why? Once you begin working with any kind of editing tool + DTP, directory organization becomes *really* important. One of the most maddening issues some apps on Win2k/Xp is its stubborn insistence on saving everything into "My Documents" instead of staying in the current working directory. This is a MS default btw. I think the MS way is lame but that's another issue. As a test, I tried hacked the win2k registry to make the "My Documents" silliness disappear - you can :-) Similar behavior with GTK apps is my number one complaint with Gnome/GTK in general. Every app defaults to $home with no possibility to set a default anywhere else. I want inkscape SVG's to be opened and saved into $home/Documents/svg or $home/$client/$project where I have artwork, text and other bits. If I open a file in $home/$client/webproject/images its maddening to make 3,4,5 clicks to save a file with revisions under a different name. When working with images and artwork, it is common to save several revisions to the same core file, but saved under a variation in the base file name. Once Inkscape becomes accepted (not long they way you are progressing..)into the pro designers toolkit, cross-platform network awareness is going to be important. I asked Mental on jabber if it would be possible to specify a default directory to save docs, but he mentioned this might pose a coding issue. Fair enough. Maybe GTK 2.4 will help with this. In Scribus, we shamelessly used the Open Office method of making a home button in the file save dialog, which can be directed anywhere in the prefs. It just works TM. Cheers, Peter "Not wanting to sound whiny about his fav SVG app" Linnell

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