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Re: [Inkscape-devel] SPAM-LOW: Re: Getting the GdkWindow in which a verb was invoked
by joel＠...1709... 27 Jun '07

27 Jun '07

> If you have problems like this, please fix it in GTK and not in every > GTK app. GTK+ is a multi-platform toolkit by the definition on there > website and not only an Linux toolkit that works on windows too. I couldn't agree more, and I think the i-beam problem has been solved precisely because the later builds use more up-to-date versions of GTK. > But we need a file dialog that fits better into windows. So I would suggest > to write a gtk dialog, that looks like a windows dialog. > The pros are, that all windows gtk apps will benefit from it and that we > can still use the preview and the bookmarks. I would have to disagree with you there. It will be very difficult for a facsimily of the Windows dialog to look consistent in it's finer details - leaving Windows users rather unsatisfied. The details really do matter. The dialog should not be nearly the same (all except for that one little thing), it needs to be exactly the same. When one calls the OpenFileName API you get the open file dialog for the version of windows which you are using. But, I suspect it'll be impossible for use to make clones of the file dialogs of *all* windows versions - especially when you take forwards compatibility with future versions of Windows into account. This is why we need to use the Windows API. I'm very impressed that the Print dialog is now the native windows file dialog - it just looks so much better! For versions of Windows before Vista, there is scope for making slight changes to the dialog by modifying the "dialog template". This basically allows you to add extra controls to it. Vista has a slightly more refined, better supported way of allowing you to do the same thing. So there would need to be different code for all versions prior to vista to all versions vista and onwards. I myself am very happy to take on this rather fiddly task, because I place a very high value on consistency. > I can only agree with you, that Windows is an very important platform. > But please don't hack the Windows support into Inkscape but make it the > "right way". ;) I wouldn't have it any other way. ---------------------------------------- From: Tobias Jakobs <tobias.jakobs@...128...> Sent: 26 June 2007 12:08 To: Joel Holdsworth <joel@...1709...> Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Getting the GdkWindow in which a verb was invoked Am Dienstag, den 26.06.2007, 18:09 +0100 schrieb Joel Holdsworth: > One thing I notice quite regularly is that > because this a GTK app, it is inevitably primarily designed for Gnome. An > example of this problem is the edit box I-beam cursor. In 0.45.1 when you > hover over an edit box in windows you get a GTK style I-beam, rather than > the windows system I-beam. I'm very glad that this has now been fixed in the > developement builds. A second example is scrollbars. When you scroll to the > maximum or minimum extent, the arrow buttons grey out. That behaviour makes > sense, but it's not Windows standard, so it sticks out like a sore thumb. > If you have problems like this, please fix it in GTK and not in every GTK app. GTK+ is a multi-platform toolkit by the definition on there website and not only an Linux toolkit that works on windows too. > I guess I got a similar impression of the file dialogs. Far from making me > feel like a first class citizen, it made me feel like it was one of those > linuxy things that noone had got round to fixing sorting out yet - Linux > being the primary platform for the project, and I being a mere "M$ Windoze" > user. I definitely don't think we should add more options to resolve this - > as they tend to be an excuse for dodging hard design decisions. I agree that > it would be a shame to loose bookmarks and preview, but then I don't think > many Windows users will know what they're missing. Instead they'll be happy > that the application has the humility to "play the Windows game the Windows > way". > I agree with you that we need other file dialogs on windows. An old usability rule is: "The Platform is the King." That means, it's not important to have the same dialogs on every platform, but to fit into the platform as good as possible. So the first question is, is there a standard Windows file open dialog? Look at Word, Photoshop, Coral Draw, Notepad and you will find 4 different file open dialogs. So we don't need "the standard windows file open dialog" because the users are used to different file dialogs. But we need a file dialog that fits better into windows. So I would suggest to write a gtk dialog, that looks like a windows dialog. The pros are, that all windows gtk apps will benefit from it and that we can still use the preview and the bookmarks. > I think it's quite important that we try and show Windows users that we take > their platform sersously, because the majority of developers work on that > platform, so we could do with attracting their input to get more inovation, > and faster progress. I can only agree with you, that Windows is an very important platform. But please don't hack the Windows support into Inkscape but make it the "right way". ;) Regards, Tobias

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] Getting the GdkWindow in which a verb was invoked
by joel＠...1709... 26 Jun '07

26 Jun '07

Ok, well if emost people are happy then I'll go ahead, and do the job as neatly as I can. You probably won't see too much visible progress in a while, because I'm holiday for the next 2 weeks, and after that I have a contract which always seems to soak up most of my brain power, but I will have it on the back burner. ---------------------------------------- From: "Joshua Blocher" <verbalshadow@...400...> Sent: 26 June 2007 16:16 To: joel@...1709... Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Getting the GdkWindow in which a verb was invoked Hi Joel, On 6/27/07, joel@...1709... wrote: > Hi Joshua, > > Yes I can see how you would loose out - I quite understand. Although I do > think we need to think about the needs of more common Windows users. You use > one application on several platforms, wheras most people use one platform > and several applications, so we really need to optimise consistency on a > per-platform basis, not on a per-app basis; simply to satisfy the > expectations of the users. The aim here is to reduce the number of > different-functioning dialogs that the user of any given platform has to > learn and understand. I would say that is the way windows works almost every app has a slightly different spin on what their apps open dialog looks and functions like. Sure most use the base open dialog as a base for their implementation but its still different, some even implement completely different looking and functioning ones, that's every version of office that i can remember and many other graphic apps. Sorry, I'm not trying to discourage you. What you want to do will probably help the average windows user. I just want to make sure that we think carefully about the downside for multi-platform users and issues is may cause with helping users. We need to remember that this is a cross-platform program and that every bit of platform specific code may additional complexity of maintaining and supporting for the long term. Since Dev's seem to have blessed off on it with conditions, good luck. Joshua L. Blocher verbalshadow > > ________________________________ > From: "Joshua Blocher" > Sent: 26 June 2007 15:02 > To: inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Getting the GdkWindow in which a verb was > invoked > > I'm personnelly for keeping the current gtk dialog, i use both windows > and linux and I simply expect inkscape to provide the same > functionality and work in the same way (where possible) on both > platforms. This provides maximum usability for multi-platform users > and reduces the need to know the platform specifics when helping > other users. I'm not against making things more "usable" for windows > users, so i feel that IF need that a gtk dialog made to look like > office 2003 open dialog ( what tobias suggested) is probably the best > half way point. It offers bookmarking and previews. It still wouldn't > function and work in exactly the same way but at least it would still > be there. > > Joshua L. Blocher > verbalshadow > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > _______________________________________________ > Inkscape-devel mailing list > Inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel > >

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] Getting the GdkWindow in which a verb was invoked
by Joel Holdsworth 26 Jun '07

26 Jun '07

Are you saying that at some stage there was suport for native windows file dialogs which was then removed? If so why was this? and if I was to add the support in once again would I be reversing some community decision from a while ago? if that decision was made, on what grounds was it made? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Jamison" <rwjj@...127...> > To: "Joel Holdsworth" <joel@...1709...>; > <inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net> > Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 4:20 PM > Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Getting the GdkWindow in which a > verb was invoked > > >> Joel Holdsworth wrote: >>> Hi again, >>> I'm currently working on a patch to add support for native file dialogs >>> for windows users. It's worked out pretty well, and I'm almost finished. >>> I have one slight problem though: parent windows. >>> In the GTK version, sp_file_open_dialog (in file.cpp) is called from >>> inside FileVerb::Perform in verbs.cpp. But how is it possible to get the >>> GdkWindow object of the windows in which the verb was invoked? If I have >>> this I can add it as an extra parameter to sp_file_open_dialog, to >>> enable both the GTK, and Win32 file dialogs to be correctly set as child >>> windows of the document's window. >>> Any suggestions? >>> Joel Holdsworth >> >> You might look at src/dialogs/filedialog-win32.cpp as an >> example. It was the original native dialog that we replaced with the >> current one. >> >> >> bob >> >

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] Getting the GdkWindow in which a verb was invoked
by joel＠...1709... 26 Jun '07

26 Jun '07

Hi Joshua, Yes I can see how you would loose out - I quite understand. Although I do think we need to think about the needs of more common Windows users. You use one application on several platforms, wheras most people use one platform and several applications, so we really need to optimise consistency on a per-platform basis, not on a per-app basis; simply to satisfy the expectations of the users. The aim here is to reduce the number of different-functioning dialogs that the user of any given platform has to learn and understand. ---------------------------------------- From: "Joshua Blocher" <verbalshadow@...400...> Sent: 26 June 2007 15:02 To: inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Getting the GdkWindow in which a verb was invoked I'm personnelly for keeping the current gtk dialog, i use both windows and linux and I simply expect inkscape to provide the same functionality and work in the same way (where possible) on both platforms. This provides maximum usability for multi-platform users and reduces the need to know the platform specifics when helping other users. I'm not against making things more "usable" for windows users, so i feel that IF need that a gtk dialog made to look like office 2003 open dialog ( what tobias suggested) is probably the best half way point. It offers bookmarking and previews. It still wouldn't function and work in exactly the same way but at least it would still be there. Joshua L. Blocher verbalshadow ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] Getting the GdkWindow in which a verb wasinvoked
by joel＠...1709... 26 Jun '07

26 Jun '07

I think it is worth the extra effort, and I'm willing to put it in, because right now the GTK dialog is just aweful. I'm going away on holiday for the next couple of weeks, but when I get back, I'll begin to look in to all this, if the rest of developers are willing to sanction it. ---------------------------------------- From: MenTaLguY <mental@...3...> Sent: 26 June 2007 11:29 To: bulia byak <buliabyak@...400...> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Getting the GdkWindow in which a verb wasinvoked On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:26:24 -0300, "bulia byak" wrote: > Easy access to the examples folder is also a very important selling > point, especially for newbies. As it is now, I'm sure many users don't > even suspect that we have such a folder. It is possible in principle to customize the Win32 places bar, though there's still the question of whether it's worth the effort: http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/03/03/CuttingEdge/ -mental

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] Automatic Engraving
by Tom Lechner 26 Jun '07

26 Jun '07

Hi, If there's to be a dedicated engraving tool, the following links are very interesting. They involve methods of automatic engraving in the field of non-photorealistic rendering. One method uses Bezier patches to determine line direction. If mesh gradients get established in Inkscape, then this would be another use for the meshes: engraving bucket fill! http://portal.acm.org/ft_gateway.cfm?id=237287&type=pdf&coll=GUIDE&dl=GUIDE… http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~ostrom/publications/pdf/SIGGRAPH99_FacialEngra… http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~ostrom/publications/abstracts.html Tom ----------- http://www.laidout.org http://www.tomlechner.com

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] Getting the GdkWindow in which a verbwas invoked
by joel＠...1709... 26 Jun '07

26 Jun '07

Hey... I'm glad a couple of people agree with me, so I'm not going crazy. I think trying to embed GTK in Windows native in GTK seems like a very hard, risky, and potentially ugly way of solving the problem. I'm much more in favour of implementing an shell thumbnail extension to achieve our goal, mainly because it would be a more Windowsy solution, and would result in less hassle. This would solve the SVG preview problem for XP and Vista users, in Inkscape, and allow them to thumbnail across the whole system, which could be a significant selling point! Looking at the thumbnail API it all depends really in how hard it is to render an arbitrary SVG file into an arbitrary HDC/HBITMAP. ---------------------------------------- From: MenTaLguY <mental@...3...> Sent: 26 June 2007 10:48 To: Gail Banaszkiewicz <gbanaszk@...1686...> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Getting the GdkWindow in which a verbwas invoked On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:01:49 -0400, Gail Banaszkiewicz wrote: > Dang I hate those stupid open windows in Inkscape - I would personally > be happy to have the option to use the Windows dialogs! With previews, > of course ;) While I'm not a frequent user of Inkscape on Windows, I've had to do so occasionally for work; I think I'd also prefer a native file dialog (though I'd miss the Gtk dialog's bookmarks a little bit). Previews are another issue, though -- before we could implement them in the native dialog, we'd need to determine how to embed a Gtk widget in a Win32 window. If we can get that part sorted out, then the usual dialog customization approach should work: http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms646960.aspx#_win32_Explorer_Styl… (Win32 programming is one of the few things that makes me miss working with Gtk...) -mental ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] Getting the GdkWindow in which averbwas invoked
by joel＠...1709... 26 Jun '07

26 Jun '07

That's my suggestion ---------------------------------------- From: MenTaLguY <mental@...3...> Sent: 26 June 2007 11:37 To: Tobias Jakobs <tobias.jakobs@...128...> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Getting the GdkWindow in which averbwas invoked On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 20:34:55 +0200, Tobias Jakobs wrote: >> This is probably a naive question, but if the files are just SVG, it >> seems that the native Windows preview mechanism would be able to display >> them. But I could be wrong :) > > No, there is no SVG-Preview in Windows. I think what she and Joel are getting at is that on Vista (and XP?), it should be possible for us to provide it. -mental ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] Getting the GdkWindow in which a verbwas invoked
by joel＠...1709... 26 Jun '07

26 Jun '07

New fangled - yes. But IExtractImage has been in since XP for thumbnails. ---------------------------------------- From: MenTaLguY <mental@...3...> Sent: 26 June 2007 11:34 To: Gail Banaszkiewicz <gbanaszk@...1686...> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Getting the GdkWindow in which a verbwas invoked On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 14:11:15 -0400, Gail Banaszkiewicz wrote: > I was thinking pretty much what Joel was talking about in a subsequent > email. Ahh, yeah. IPreviewHandler. All these new-fangled Vista things... :) -mental ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel(a)lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel

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Re: [Inkscape-devel] Getting the GdkWindow in which a verb wasinvoked
by joel＠...1709... 26 Jun '07

26 Jun '07

I would say that it definitely is worth the effort, because attention to detail *really* matters. You just need a willing volunteer - which is probably me! Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Getting the GdkWindow in which a verb wasinvoked On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:26:24 -0300, "bulia byak" wrote: > Easy access to the examples folder is also a very important selling > point, especially for newbies. As it is now, I'm sure many users don't > even suspect that we have such a folder. It is possible in principle to customize the Win32 places bar, though there's still the question of whether it's worth the effort: http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/03/03/CuttingEdge/ -mental

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